Freemasonry=Road paved with good intentions going to hell! :)

Hi Mags,

The teachings of this fraternity are no secret they should have been instilled in us all along as we developed into the men we are.

The Fraternity of freemasonry only unites of under one common bond of friendship and brotherly love universally. Over the years the wives tails and fables have been passed and worked over trying to discredit us but with out luck the fraternity has stood solid since 1717 and will continue as time goes.

The issue you may have as the outsider is why? Well each member may have their own reasons for joining that cannon always be answered as a universal one though. The lame debate about bibles being used and their for proving us to be a “religion” Then any Court in the US that uses a Bible as we are sworn in is a Religion? Is that what you truly think or what has been said to you and then you take it for the absolute?

Originally posted by African459
The lame debate about bibles being used and their for proving us to be a “religion” Then any Court in the US that uses a Bible as we are sworn in is a Religion? Is that what you truly think or what has been said to you and then you take it for the absolute?

I apologise right off the bat, but I see NO connection whatsoever to the use of the bible in the courtroom as compared with the use of the bible in
Freemasonry. I understand that by placing ones hand on the bible before a courtroom is to state that a person swears to tell the whole truth and nothing but etc etc..But people are not asked to recite a scripture. I only know of two places where people are asked this. Church and Lodge..ok perhaps home as well.

Originally posted by magestica

Originally posted by African459
The lame debate about bibles being used and their for proving us to be a “religion” Then any Court in the US that uses a Bible as we are sworn in is a Religion? Is that what you truly think or what has been said to you and then you take it for the absolute?

I apologise right off the bat, but I see NO connection whatsoever to the use of the bible in the courtroom as compared with the use of the bible in
Freemasonry. I understand that by placing ones hand on the bible before a courtroom is to state that a person swears to tell the whole truth and nothing but etc etc..But people are not asked to recite a scripture. I only know of two places where people are asked this. Church and Lodge..ok perhaps home as well.

Again as an outsider which you are you really have no ideal what we do behind the close doors only assumptions, we are not asked to recite scripture as you "should" know the word should NOT be recited but only read word for word from the VSL or in terms of the Bible it should not. So again I ask should then a Court of Law be viewed also as a religion what about when Politions are sworn into office and they use a Bible now do we view that as a new form of religion as well?

I do try not to get myself into many debates over my "fraternity" because its actually not needed as it clearly stands on its good deeds alone.

True Story, there was a woman who I would speak with while riding the train to and from work each day. She always praised me for my well manners and upstanding vitures. One day she noticed my masonic pin on my coat lapel and then pretty much tried to blast me with all her "Knowledge" of how Masonry is for the devil even tried to question my Faith in GOD. After hearing all she incorrectly stated she then asked me if I ever belonged to a Chruch and also suggested I may visit her church to be saved.

She told me the name of the chruch and I then asked her if the Paster there was Rev Jones, the woman then said yes and she would introduce me if I came on Sunday.

I told her No worries he is a Class mate of mine who I went through the Shrine with. But I will surely tell him that I did met you and you will be seeing him letting him know you can no longer listen to a man of the devil..LOL

True story but just goes to show you not all we "think" we know is real.

Originally posted by African459
Again as an outsider which you are you really have no ideal what we do behind the close doors only assumptions, we are not asked to recite scripture as you "should" know the word should NOT be recited but only read word for word from the VSL or in terms of the Bible it should not. So again I ask should then a Court of Law be viewed also as a religion what about when Politions are sworn into office and they use a Bible now do we view that as a new form of religion as well?

I do try not to get myself into many debates over my "fraternity" because its actually not needed as it clearly stands on its good deeds alone.

Twice now you've addressed me as an "outsider" but in fact since we do not know eachother at all, you can only "assume" that I am an outsider unless I inform you of this or otherwise deny.

I thought your testimony was wonderful regaring the woman on the train and it does go to show that all people of all sorts wear masks at one point or another in their daily life. Once again as I hear time and again the defense goes straight back to the good deeds and brotherly love that Freemasons provide for mankind. But I don't think that gives one a leg to stand on because ANYONE can state they are doing good deeds but are they really? Im my opinion and observation I have not seen any true and good deeds provided by Freemason orginizations. I know when there are people hungry, for example during the holidays, then they are likely to receive food and assistance through church orginizations, but that does not tell me that that particular "church" is all fine and dandy. A person is not recognised by their good deeds alone. Heck, murders feel they are doing the world a good deed by killing off prostitutes and such.

Another question..Why is there a Masonic Bible?

Well I have taken that view based clearly on your comments which are inaccurate when you speak about what goes on inside a Masonic lodge especially since I’ve been a brother of the Order for about 15 years now your statement come short that is only why I stated you as an outsider eg: non member which clearly you show to be.

Also why does the fraternity of Freemasonry have to “Prove” themselves to anyone? And the thing about masons is we do good deeds without the need for Public applause. We do things within the community, around the globe because we as humans SHOULD be doing these things. To ask for a listing of what each lodge does to contribute to this is again a need to then validate ourselves and for who? If you want a list.. Gladly, just show me yours and I will show you mine?

LOL why are there Masonic Bibles? LOL you mean to say Bible with a Masonic emblem on them? They are for presentation, gifts. Again proving yourself as an eavesdropper Come on outsider please do better.

Cheers,
African459


[edit on 7-2-2006 by African459]

Another question..Why is there a Masonic Bible?

The "Masonic Bible" is really nothing more than the King James with a spot for signatures,
mine also includes a page in front which shows the various other Masonic bodies.

!!!!! Opinion Alert !!!!!

I think you may be confused about Masonry is, though it may be something different to each member.
I, for example, did not join for spiritual growth nor as an expression of spirituality.
We don't go to lodge to worship and pray, we do offer a brief prayer at openning and closing
but that is not the purpose for our gathering. Items on our agendas consist primarily of dinner planning, fund raising,
and programs such as learning about Benjamin Franklin or Masonry during the American Civil war. We socialize, learn, grow and contribute to our community.
Masonry does not try and define you spiritualy or personally, it doesn't tell you to whom to pray or in what manner.
We do not discuss politics nor religion in lodge, those are left to the individual where they belong.
Freemasonry is a fraternal orginazation comprised of good men who desire to grow, learn from each other,
socialize and contribute to world around them.

This is my opinion and what Freemasonry is to me, I would guess that it is similar for most.

Originally posted by AngelWitch

Freemasonry is a fraternal orginazation comprised of good men who desire to grow, learn from each other,
socialize and contribute to world around them.

This is my opinion and what Freemasonry is to me, I would guess that it is similar for most.

Thanks for the follow up and nicely put!

"Freemasonry making good men better"...

I only asked about your good deeds because you used that in defense of your lodge.

I asked with simple curiosity as to why there are bibles with masonic emblems on them given to masons. Again this tends to be headed toward a religious sect when persons start handing out bibles to members. For arguments sake, what the is a Jew or a Muslim Freemason meant to do with a Holy Bible? Not that I don't think it's a wonderful gesture and gift!

I think we are going around in circles and pretty much heading back to right where we started. I'm not getting any of my questions answered except with backlash.

Prove to me how Freemasons can USE the Holy Bible as they do and gift it out and yet deny that they are a religious group. This is such a contradiction that even a monkey could see it.

Originally posted by magestica
I only asked about your good deeds because you used that in defense of your lodge.

I asked with simple curiosity as to why there are bibles with masonic emblems on them given to masons. Again this tends to be headed toward a religious sect when persons start handing out bibles to members. For arguments sake, what the is a Jew or a Muslim Freemason meant to do with a Holy Bible? Not that I don't think it's a wonderful gesture and gift!

I think we are going around in circles and pretty much heading back to right where we started. I'm not getting any of my questions answered except with backlash.

Prove to me how Freemasons can USE the Holy Bible as they do and gift it out and yet deny that they are a religious group. This is such a contradiction that even a monkey could see it.

As an outsider you may feel the topic is going around because somethings do not need to be explained. Basic are Freemasonry is not a religion it is a Fraternity.

Masonic Bibles are just as Angel Witch stated as well a King James Bible with a Masonic emblem on it. Presentation..

Good deeds are various ones done around the world and even more local among the various communities as well.

Originally posted by AngelWitch


The "Masonic Bible" is really nothing more than the King James with a spot for signatures,
mine also includes a page in front which shows the various other Masonic bodies.

Now you disclose that Freemasons incorporate various bodies of Freemasonry into the Holy Bible? Hmm. Why?

Sigh*

That is not Universal. When you travel to other location which are not christian based then you will see other forms of VSL (behind the tiled door)...

hmmm next round?

I'd guess it's just like a "family" Bible. that has room in the front to write in your family's history.

But in this case it's sorta like the history of the persons involvement in Freemasonry.

Originally posted by African459
As an outsider you may feel the topic is going around because somethings do not need to be explained. Basic are Freemasonry is not a religion it is a Fraternity.

Actually..I feel that things are going around in circles between you and I because my questions are not being met with justifiable responses. I do want things explained, whether or not I "need" them explained is another story.

If you are not a Christian- in other words -if you are not a believer and worshiper in our Lord Jesus Christ as the son of God of Abraham then I kind of understand a need/desire for branching off into such a fraternal order as Freemasonry. However..my concern, question and curiosity is for the men who state/claim they are believers/worshipers of our Lord Jesus Christ and yet, are also members of Freemasonry. I see a clash in belief systems therefore I am curious.

Originally posted by magestica
However..my concern, question and curiosity is for the men who state/claim they are believers/worshipers of our Lord Jesus Christ and yet, are also members of Freemasonry. I see a clash in belief systems...

Why? What exactly is the "clash"?

Originally posted by magestica

Originally posted by African459
As an outsider you may feel the topic is going around because somethings do not need to be explained. Basic are Freemasonry is not a religion it is a Fraternity.

Actually..I feel that things are going around in circles between you and I because my questions are not being met with justifiable responses. I do want things explained, whether or not I "need" them explained is another story.

If you are not a Christian- in other words -if you are not a believer and worshiper in our Lord Jesus Christ as the son of God of Abraham then I kind of understand a need/desire for branching off into such a fraternal order as Freemasonry. However..my concern, question and curiosity is for the men who state/claim they are believers/worshipers of our Lord Jesus Christ and yet, are also members of Freemasonry. I see a clash in belief systems therefore I am curious.

Curiosity is better met by working way inside instead outsider trying to peek in the tinted glass.

You see a clash and I'm sorry for that but as you grow you'll prob see many things that you didn't understand before but will then come to "light".

But slimply as its been stated repeatedly just I guess over looked, Freemasonry is not a religion nor does it conflict with religion in anyway as its Universal and doesnot limited membership to one single sec or religion.

Hope that clears it for you... If no oh well.

Originally posted by magestica
I asked with simple curiosity as to why there are bibles with masonic emblems on them given to masons. Again this tends to be headed toward a religious sect when persons start handing out bibles to members.

I disagree. It is a gift to commemorate the event and as a statement that faith is important.

Originally posted by magestica
For arguments sake, what the is a Jew or a Muslim Freemason meant to do with a Holy Bible? Not that I don't think it's a wonderful gesture and gift!

Each lodge has it's own flavor. I believe lodges in Muslin countires open the Koran in thier meetings, and give them as gifts.
if I am in error, then perhaps a Brother who has traveled can correct me.

Originally posted by magestica
I think we are going around in circles and pretty much heading back to right where we started. I'm not getting any of my questions answered except with backlash.

I haven't intend anything as backlash, I appologize if you have taken it as such.

Originally posted by magestica
Prove to me how Freemasons can USE the Holy Bible as they do and gift it out and yet deny that they are a religious group. This is such a contradiction that even a monkey could see it.

In what manner do you think it used? It is open at our meetings and given in commemoration of joining as a reminder
that faith is important aspect of life not to be taken lightly
and one should direct his steps through life in accordance with his faith.
Again, Freemasonry doesn't try and tell anyone how to worship or whom;
it stresses the importance of having faith but doesn't try and define it.

I guess you may need to clarify what you mean by religious organization.
If you mean that it recognizes the importance of religion, and admonishes it's
members to be true to thier faith whatever it happens to be, then yes.
If you mean that it defines thier faith, to whom they pray or the manner in which they worship, then no.
Freemasonry is not a substitute for religion and doesn't try to be, but does
reinforce the importance of having faith and living by the principles of that faith.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Why? What exactly is the "clash"?

Well for starters it doesn't line up with the Word of God. The reason I think this is because it completely removes Jesus Christ from the picture. (What I refer to when I say "it" is Freemasonry.) That to me, is a huge clash. Let me just give an example:
If I am a young/old man who believes in Jesus Christ and I follow the word of our Lord the best I can in this day and age(as I know it isn't always easy) then WHY..why would I allow or even desire myself to be initiated into a group that on one hand uses parts of my belief system to have me as part of their group and on another denies claims that they are a religious sect/group. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't add up. Who is it that men pray to when they open and close with prayer? Any God they want to? There is validity and sincerity in my continued search for understanding where this is concerned.

If one is truly a man of God, doesn't this particular way of life conflict in ones very soul?

Originally posted by magestica

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Why? What exactly is the "clash"?

Well for starters it doesn't line up with the Word of God. The reason I think this is because it completely removes Jesus Christ from the picture. (What I refer to when I say "it" is Freemasonry.) That to me, is a huge clash. Let me just give an example:
If I am a young/old man who believes in Jesus Christ and I follow the word of our Lord the best I can in this day and age(as I know it isn't always easy) then WHY..why would I allow or even desire myself to be initiated into a group that on one hand uses parts of my belief system to have me as part of their group and on another denies claims that they are a religious sect/group. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't add up. Who is it that men pray to when they open and close with prayer? Any God they want to? There is validity and sincerity in my continued search for understanding where this is concerned.

If one is truly a man of God, doesn't this particular way of life conflict in ones very soul?

Masonry and religion may be similar in some respects having been derived from similar roots. However masonry is not a religion. Masonry seeks to teach codes of behavior and upholds certain ideals and standards of personal conduct. Evidence of faith and belief are essential to both religion and masonry. It has usually been found that men who are accepting of one are also dutiful to the other. Whenever there is some contention regarding the two, it can usually be charged to either misunderstanding or misinformation.

Originally posted by AngelWitch

In what manner do you think it used? It is open at our meetings and given in commemoration of joining as a reminder
that faith is important aspect of life not to be taken lightly
and one should direct his steps through life in accordance with his faith.
Again, Freemasonry doesn't try and tell anyone how to worship or whom;
it stresses the importance of having faith but doesn't try and define it.

I guess you may need to clarify what you mean by religious organization.
If you mean that it recognizes the importance of religion, and admonishes it's
members to be true to thier faith whatever it happens to be, then yes.
If you mean that it defines thier faith, to whom they pray or the manner in which they worship, then no.
Freemasonry is not a substitute for religion and doesn't try to be, but does
reinforce the importance of having faith and living by the principles of that faith.

That was the best response and most sincere one I've heard to this day, either here online or anywhere else. Thank you. I'm happy to know all of this. So does Freemasonry bring one closer to God? Or can it?

Originally posted by magestica
So does Freemasonry bring one closer to God? Or can it?

Well, if you're seeking to get closer to God then I would say there are better avenues, such as the Church. Freemasonry is not a substitute for religion, and shouldn't be used as such.