Freemasonry=Road paved with good intentions going to hell! :)

Originally posted by magestica

Well for starters it doesn't line up with the Word of God. The reason I think this is because it completely removes Jesus Christ from the picture.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, and am not being facetious. Freemasonry doesn't "remove" Jesus Christ any more than it removes Krishna, the Beatles, or the New York Yankees. When you say "remove", I'm completely lost. Removed from what?

If I am a young/old man who believes in Jesus Christ and I follow the word of our Lord the best I can in this day and age(as I know it isn't always easy) then WHY..why would I allow or even desire myself to be initiated into a group that on one hand uses parts of my belief system to have me as part of their group and on another denies claims that they are a religious sect/group. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't add up.

Here I would have to agree with African inasmuch as you wouldn't be expected to fully understand the fraternity because you would have had no personal experience with it. To begin with, Freemasonry was founded by Christians, so of course, its Christian past can easily be seen in many of its symbols and rituals. On the other hand, during the Enlightenment, some of the guys in the fraternity got the crazy idea that it was wrong to discriminate against people because of their religious beliefs, and for the first time, non-Christians were allowed. This continues to be the basis of some Christians' criticism of Masonry. However, if Masonry decided tomorrow to admit only Christians, forbidding Jews and others because of their religious beliefs, I would resign immediately, and gladly wash my hands of such a bigoted institution.

Who is it that men pray to when they open and close with prayer? Any God they want to?

How many Gods do you believe there are?

If one is truly a man of God, doesn't this particular way of life conflict in ones very soul?

Apparently not, as thousands of men of God who have been Masons have never had a problem with it. It seems that those who do have problems with Masonry, almost every time, are those who themselves have never been Masons, and as such, aren't fully qualified to make a judgement.

As mentioned previously, my father was a Mason.

He believed in God but he did not attend church. He felt the "church" tended to enforce HOW he had to believe, HOW he had to act, HOW he had to use his faith, dictating who was acceptable and who was not etc.

My father always said that in Freemasonry, he could believe HIS way....have his own relationship with God without all the demands he felt the church put on him....he was free to learn about being a better person both in his own eyes and in Gods without being somewhat persecuted for his own principles as he felt the church did to him i.e. He accepted that people were 'born Gay' so to speak, whereas the church told him it was just plain evil to be Gay. He didn't like it, but he accepted other peoples
choices and didn't have prejudice towards minorities that he felt the church taught in some ways.

This is not about God as such.....it is about faith. Every muslim, christian, jew in this world has faith. That is what helps us all to work on being better people. Just like within a church, my father always said that the Brotherhood gave him support in HIS learning (not the learning the church tried to dictate to him). It is not a religious sect - it is a brotherhood of people who ACCEPT you for who you are, which in my opinion is pretty darn cool considering the 'religion' debate itself has caused more conflict in this world than almost anything else ever has.

Thats what he told me, for whatever it is worth. I personally have experienced the kindness of the Brothers. I would stand up for any 'group' that has helped so many people. It is also a touchy subject for me personally as I have religiously fanatic in-laws trying to say my Father was
"evil" because he was a Mason. If I come across as a bit defensive, forgive me, but I am

A few questions.

If say... I... wanted to become a mason, how would I know what I were getting in to? I am very interested in becoming a better person, helping society and donating my time to help less fortunate or those in need. I have a belief in the "architecture" of the universe and am chosing masonry as one of my options in conjunction with say...the lions club...or the rotary club. I am quite convinced that the rotary club is not plagued with scandalous rumour and theories of taking over the world; however, they are a fraternity of old men that do not allow women within their ranks and they sit around, have dinner and discuss future activity plans.

What would convince me to join the freemasons over another group. I am not suggesting that it is your obligation to convince me although if your internal working are secretive and the only wany one can know the goings on is to attend, and I must take an oath for life before I am permitted to see the goings on. I can only ask the question, "Why should I join?" Please do not take this as anything more than it is, only a question as I am seriously considering walking in off the street and asking permission to become an apprentice.

One further question, possibly for you ML, to what degree does someone such as myself need to believe in a "god" as my belief system is a little to the side of "normal"?

One comment after reading several threads, masons have posted throughout this blog that freemasonry is all about accepting equality and bettering society. Does posting disparaging remarks about other men (even though almost justifiably sometimes in defense) contrast this theory?

Sincerley

Natrlyst

Originally posted by natrlyst
What would convince me to join the freemasons over another group. I am not suggesting that it is your obligation to convince me although if your internal working are secretive and the only wany one can know the goings on is to attend, and I must take an oath for life before I am permitted to see the goings on. I can only ask the question, "Why should I join?" Please do not take this as anything more than it is, only a question as I am seriously considering walking in off the street and asking permission to become an apprentice.

I wouldn't try and convince you to join, either you want to or you do not.
If you were an interested individual with questions,
I would happily answer them or direct you to a source that could.
The "inner workings" are not secretive, only the modes of recognition and ritual.
I'll tell you everything we spoke about at our last meeting if you'd like, it is not secret.
Do you have questions about how a lodge runs, though this would take
the thread into a mundane area and assure it's closure by the mods.

Originally posted by natrlyst
One comment after reading several threads, masons have posted throughout this blog that freemasonry is all about accepting equality and bettering society. Does posting disparaging remarks about other men (even though almost justifiably sometimes in defense) contrast this theory?

It's unfortunate but Masons are good men, not perfect ones.

Originally posted by AngelWitch

Originally posted by natrlyst
What would convince me to join the freemasons over another group. I am not suggesting that it is your obligation to convince me although if your internal working are secretive and the only wany one can know the goings on is to attend, and I must take an oath for life before I am permitted to see the goings on. I can only ask the question, "Why should I join?" Please do not take this as anything more than it is, only a question as I am seriously considering walking in off the street and asking permission to become an apprentice.

I wouldn't try and convince you to join, either you want to or you do not.
If you were an interested individual with questions,
I would happily answer them or direct you to a source that could.
The "inner workings" are not secretive, only the modes of recognition and ritual.
I'll tell you everything we spoke about at our last meeting if you'd like, it is not secret.
Do you have questions about how a lodge runs, though this would take
the thread into a mundane area and assure it's closure by the mods.

Originally posted by natrlyst
One comment after reading several threads, masons have posted throughout this blog that freemasonry is all about accepting equality and bettering society. Does posting disparaging remarks about other men (even though almost justifiably sometimes in defense) contrast this theory?

It's unfortunate but Masons are good men, not perfect ones.

A better approach indeed, I have questions. I have many questions and I suppose that is my dilemma, I have more questions about masonry than other organisations. It is also a little more intriguing than other organisations because of so many questions.

I knew I would get this vague response "...either you want to join or you do not..." and I suppose I should have cut it off at the pass.
Do I have to ask if the sky is blue for you to tell me it is so? I ask the question then... Why do I want to join the freemasons?
I will also ask... Can I join the freemasons if I am not "religious"?

Originally posted by natrlyst
I am quite convinced that the rotary club is not plagued with scandalous rumour and theories of taking over the world;

Which makes them less interesting.

however, they are a fraternity of old men that do not allow women within their ranks and they sit around, have dinner and discuss future activity plans.

We aren't all old. Certainly, our older members are more in the public view, as many are retired, and have more time to stand around Wal-Mart in their Shrine fezzes selling candy bars. But those of us who are younger are around too, we just have day jobs.

What would convince me to join the freemasons over another group. I am not suggesting that it is your obligation to convince me although if your internal working are secretive and the only wany one can know the goings on is to attend, and I must take an oath for life before I am permitted to see the goings on.

The oath of secrecy is indeed a part of Masonic initiation. However, of course, you will not be required to give up your life if you violate it (although you would be subject to expulsion). As for what you would "be getting into", there are a ton of books and interesting websites on the fraternity. I would suggest starting here.

One further question, possibly for you ML, to what degree does someone such as myself need to believe in a "god" as my belief system is a little to the side of "normal"?

This question would be an internal one for you alone.

Why do I want to join the Freemasons? Do I need to answer this question myself?
nat

Originally posted by natrlyst
[I knew I would get this vague response "...either you want to join or you do not..." and I suppose I should have cut it off at the pass.

Sorry, it was a vague question that I'm not able to answer for you.

Originally posted by natrlyst
Do I have to ask if the sky is blue for you to tell me it is so? I ask the question then... Why do I want to join the freemasons?

This would have to be for you to answer, there are several good reasons.
Mine include socializations with others of like mind, an organization with a rich and long history and yet another way to contribute to the community.
You may notice that these may also pertain to some other very good groups(such as the Rotary Club) and then you will ask
why then the Masons? It's a matter of preference. I enjoy doing ritual, I enjoy the manner in which meetings run and I like the
constant reminder of the moral principles on which Masonry is built.
Again this just for me, others reasons will vary.

Originally posted by natrlyst
I will also ask... Can I join the freemasons if I am not "religious"?

You may not be an atheist; you must believe in a supreme being. But as has been
stated already, that does not mean that you have to be a Catholic/Christian/etc.. who attends church every sunday either.
In addition to that, I would also think it very unlikely that anyone who professed
that satan or himself was the supreme being would gain admittance.
I don't know your beliefs so I cannot say that you would be accepted or not.

ML - I've heard some of those Rotary functions can get pretty wild.

So if you are claiming there are no secrets, just secret rituals, why are the rituals such a secret, especially if they are such an integral part of the freemason's agenda (Meeting Agenda). I am not asking for you to post the rituals and/or symbols or to post any secrets as I would hate to put anyone in an awkward position, just looking for an answer as to the highly secretive nature of the sessions.

It is secrecy that peeks the curiosity of conspiracy theorists, and if for once and for all, you may prove the theorists wrong, what is the intention of the secrecy?

I am expecting an answer similar to "...just because..." as there seems to be no rational reason for secrecy unless you have something to hide.

Thank you ML for the link, I will deeply search for information regarding this topic and form my own opinion as well as search for a lodge in my area.

I do hope that all of my questions will not be retorted with ambiguous guru type responses in my search.

Originally posted by natrlyst
So if you are claiming there are no secrets, just secret rituals, why are the rituals such a secret, especially if they are such an integral part of the freemason's agenda (Meeting Agenda). I am not asking for you to post the rituals and/or symbols or to post any secrets as I would hate to put anyone in an awkward position, just looking for an answer as to the highly secretive nature of the sessions.

It is secrecy that peeks the curiosity of conspiracy theorists, and if for once and for all, you may prove the theorists wrong, what is the intention of the secrecy?

I am expecting an answer similar to "...just because..." as there seems to be no rational reason for secrecy unless you have something to hide.

Thank you ML for the link, I will deeply search for information regarding this topic and form my own opinion as well as search for a lodge in my area.

I do hope that all of my questions will not be retorted with ambiguous guru type responses in my search.

Hi natrylst,

Hopefully ML will post a link for you. If not, I will post tonight when I
am at home the website that clearly quotes every part
of the rituals. It is not evil or satanic. Yes there are hoods and ropes etc but these are based on very old 'plays' that were performed for the public long long ago. It is also apparently symbolism of the 'trapped' person who is then 'released' to grow spiritually (when the hood and rope are removed during the ritual) The Freemasonry rituals are very old sacred traditions to them - and therefore their need to protect these tradtions is quite strong. (I am going by what my Father told me about his Masonry here) From my understanding the reason for secrecy is due to very old traditions. In my opinion and through research I can see that secrecy was created because of persecution by the Roman church wayyyy back long ago. The Roman catholic church in those days did not accept any other religion or group of any kind - therefore many had to carry out their meetings and support networks in secret.

I can't personally blame anyone for hiding out in that kind of situation......I don't imagine burning at the stake or somesuch was a very attractive prospect!!

Originally posted by natrlyst
So if you are claiming there are no secrets, just secret rituals, why are the rituals such a secret, especially if they are such an integral part of the freemason's agenda (Meeting Agenda).

I can't speak for masonic initiation rituals but I have had several "secret" initiations with other groups.

In most cases the initiations are meant to teach you something,and they use several methods to do it.

Sometimes it's the mystery of the unknown, Every ride a roller coaster? The first ride is always the most memorable as you're not quite sure of what is going to happen next.

Sometimes it's surprise. If you ever leaned back in a chair that reclined more than you thought? That OH @*^#! moment where your brain thinks your going over. That is something you will never forget about that chair.

Sometimes it's just a good way to tell a dramatic story, If you know the ending of a movie or book your enjoyment of it will suffer. or if you know the secrets of a stage magician the show won't have the same effect on you as it has on the rest of the audience.

Originally posted by natrlyst
So if you are claiming there are no secrets, just secret rituals, why are the rituals such a secret, especially if they are such an integral part of the freemason's agenda (Meeting Agenda). I am not asking for you to post the rituals and/or symbols or to post any secrets as I would hate to put anyone in an awkward position, just looking for an answer as to the highly secretive nature of the sessions.

It is secrecy that peeks the curiosity of conspiracy theorists, and if for once and for all, you may prove the theorists wrong, what is the intention of the secrecy?

I am expecting an answer similar to "...just because..." as there seems to be no rational reason for secrecy unless you have something to hide.

Thank you ML for the link, I will deeply search for information regarding this topic and form my own opinion as well as search for a lodge in my area.

I do hope that all of my questions will not be retorted with ambiguous guru type responses in my search.

There's no rational reason to wear neck ties, but people still do it.

The secrecy is way overblown, in my humble opinion. Part of the reason it exists, however, is simply to preserve the methods for recognising a Mason. That's like entrusting a security door password to someone when they start work at a company, for example. It's no business of people from outside the firm. The modes of recognition are simply there to prevent imposters/liars/con-artists from taking advantage.

Remember there is a question mark. Freemasons please read all before any bashing me happens

(according to Exodus 20:4-5):

You are strictly prohibited from the manufacture of graven images resembling anything found in heaven above, within the Earth, or dwelling in the waters underneath the Earth. Neither will you bow down before such images or serve them; because, as your god Yahweh, I am easily excitable and will not hesitate to punish sons for the misdeeds of their fathers, all the way to the third and fourth generations.

Some even believe that Freemasonry is itself a religion, whose deity is the pagan god Baphomet.

However as any devout Christian in the organization will tell you, there is nothing Satanic about the group's ideology, rituals, or symbols.

One longstanding sore point for the Masons has been the plagiarization of Masonic ceremonies and symbology by Joseph Smith for his religious cult known as the Mormon Church. Smith was inducted into the brotherhood in March 1842. In May he produced the Endowment ceremony, which borrowed whole sections of dialogue from the Masonic ritual. This pissed off a lot of Freemasons, to say the least. Like every Mason, Smith had been required to swear an oath never to reveal the secrets of Freemasonry to non-members.

Remember also that Freemasonry is about having broad and open views whereas Christianity follows a more narrow line. Jesus once said along the lines, "The only path to God is through me."

The Swedish system (which covers Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, and Germany) it is a REQUIREMENT that you be Christian to be a member. The other systems (York Rite & Scottish Rite) only require you to believe in a higher power.

The secrecy is like knowing that you're having a surprise party. It would ruin it.
The element of surprise in the ceremonies, I've been led to believe, is an important part of it. The geometry of the rooms, the lighting and place standings are there for a specific reason. It, I assume adds to the experience, which if known about before would ultimately ruin it.

I don't think Joseph Smith's plagiarism is a very sore point for Freemasonry... but rather an embarrassment for the "divinely inspired" religion of Mormonism.

Good post.

It's funny to watch poeple in this forum who claim and may not claim to be a freemason. The truth is, if your a freemason, you do not have the inclination or the time to paruse this forum, secondly, one of the rules of entry of Freemasonery is that you can be of "any faith" as long as it's monotheistic...so atheists cannot be a freemason. Additionally, freemasonery is not a religion but as people in this post have pointed out, is a group of men (which not includes some women) who share common goals for the world.

Originally posted by Truthful One
The truth is, if your a freemason, you do not have the inclination or the time to paruse this forum

Not so. I may be lacking in the time department, but I do enjoy reading some of this stuff and I'm also reasonably certain of the honesty of many of the others who have stated they are Masons.

Originally posted by Truthful One
The truth is, if your a freemason, you do not have the inclination or the time to paruse this forum

Why would you say that? I don't create any monster posts, but I love reading the material on this site. People often put a lot of time and effort into their posts at ATS. It's one of the things that consistently impresses me about this place.

Originally posted by Truthful One
The truth is, if your a freemason, you do not have the inclination or the time to paruse this forum,

You make it seem that being a freemason is a full time occupation. From what I can tell from knowing freemasons, as long as your dues are paid you are not required to be there all the time.

From what I can gather and please freemasons correct me if I'm wrong you can decide when you want to attend. Although I don't know I can imagine there are certain times you can't attend because of your degree. Certain ceremonies or whatever you call them. That's just a theory of mine so please correct me and not beat me up

[edit on 15-2-2006 by MrDog]

Originally posted by MrDog

From what I can gather and please freemasons correct me if I'm wrong you can decide when you want to attend.

All members are encouraged to attend meetings of their Lodge. However, members are not expected to attend if it presents an unnecessary hardship.

Although I don't know I can imagine there are certain times you can't attend because of your degree. Certain ceremonies or whatever you call them. That's just a theory of mine so please correct me and not beat me

That's pretty accurate. Once a Mason reaches the Third Degree, which is Master Mason, he is required to pay dues. Because he is required to pay dues at this degree, he is eligible to be present at all Lodge meetings, and to have both a voice and a vote in its deliberations.

Please note that this is the case for the USA. In the UK and Canada, many Lodges hold business on the First Degree, and thus require Apprentices to pay dues.

[edit on 15-2-2006 by Masonic Light]