Freemasonry=Road paved with good intentions going to hell! :)

Originally posted by TxSecret


If all Freemasonry did was raise money for crippled and burned children I wouldn't have a problem. It's all the other "stuff" that goes on. Take the Red Cross for example.. I'm not aware they they have any shrines and temples with altars complete with 'holy books', rites and rituals. (And everything else 'of the like') They are a HUGE charitable organization.

It's pretty imperically obvious to anyone by using this examply that Freemasonry is NOT just a fraternity or a brotherhood.

Just in case you weren't aware, ALL fraternities have "shrines, altars, rites, and rituals". That's what distinguishes fraternities from clubs.

Get rid of the faith 'requirement', rites, rituals, altars and 'holy books' and I MIGHT reconsider..

You seem to be writing under the assumption that we're trying to convince you that you should be a Mason. We are not.

An no ML, based on MY Faith, Jesus did not teach theology, philosophy, or religion. He taught the TRUTH. Bible is pretty clear about this.. do I need to whip out some more scriptures?

Surely you know that using the Bible to prove the Bible is no different than using the Qu'ran to prove the Qu'ran, or the Book of Mormon to prove the Book of Mormon. I think the Bible contains SOME truth, but it's also obvious it contains a lot of mythology and erroneous opinions. If you want a theological argument, I'd be happy to oblige; are you sure you want to go there?

This really illustrates the difference between you and I and how you really feel about the Bible. I seriously doubt that scripture could ever become 'ad nauseum' to me no matter how much it's quoted.

As I've mentioned, the Bible contains some truth, some error, some reality, some mythology. I'm very familiar with the Bible, as well as Christian theology, including Catholicism, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc. I'm also familiar with the physical sciences, and how scientific fact has disproven many of the Bible's claims. The Bible is not alone in this however, as all the ancient texts of the different religions got a lot of it wrong too (if it makes you feel any better).

Originally posted by TxSecret
If all Freemasonry did was raise money for crippled and burned children I wouldn't have a problem. It's all the other "stuff" that goes on. Take the Red Cross for example.. I'm not aware they they have any shrines and temples with altars complete with 'holy books', rites and rituals. (And everything else 'of the like') They are a HUGE charitable organization.

The Red Cross isn't a fraternity. Freemasonry is.

I just don't see how you guys can sit here and try and 'seperate' Freemasonry from every 'religion and god' that comes in your door.

Freemasonry allows you to believe as you do without offending others. Each Freemason should work out his own salvation with God, and at the same time be tolerant enough to allow others to do the same... In otherwords do what you believe God wants you to do.

Sorry you don't see it that way. Most fundamentalists don't. Fundamentalists tend to believe that are adamantly RIGHT and anyone who's beliefs are different are undenyably WRONG.

Obviously Freemasonry is not for you. That's O.K., though, it isn't meant for everyone.

Get rid of the faith 'requirement', rites, rituals, altars and 'holy books' and I MIGHT reconsider.

Get rid of that and you have left over...the Lions Club or the Rotary Club or the like (all fine organizations by the way...I actually belong to a civic club) but it's not Freemasonry.

You might "Reconsider" what?

Until then, as far as I'm concerned, this 'seperation of state' (Freemasonry not being a religion) simply does not exist and is a HUGE dangerous deception that even the most 'deft' could 'see'.

I appreciate being called "deft" which means "quick and skillful" but I assume you meant "daft" which means "foolish"

That I don't appreciate, but I respect your right to believe what you want about the organization (and similar fraternal societies I assume) Again, it is obviously not the right thign for you but it is the right thing for many good men...and MANY of whom are Christians (whether you...who are in no position to judge...believe it or not)

Supporting someone and Loving them are ENTIRELY two different things. I can't believe you don't understand this very simply concept.

I guess I'm just deft.

Pax vobiscum!

-appak

[edit on 10-3-2006 by Appak]

Ok, you got me on the spelling.. (I went back and corrected it) I'll take the heat for that one. Was I calling anyone 'daft' in particular? Not really.


Ok.. now your distancing yourself from the Bible? Interesting.. You were just using it (or trying to) 'against' me.


ML,

Just in case you weren't aware, ALL fraternities have "shrines, altars, rites, and rituals". That's what distinguishes fraternities from clubs.

Now what's the difference between a religion, a fraternity, and "just a club" again?

Btw, I've edited my last post quite a bit..

[edit on 10-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
Ok, you got me on the spelling.. (I went back and corrected it) I'll take the heat for that one. Was I calling anyone 'daft' in particular? Not really.

It didn't offend me.

Ok.. now your distancing yourself from the Bible?

Certainly not. As a Christian I wouldn't. Believe me, it comes in handy on a daily basis.

But I learned many years ago that one cannot take one or two verses and use them for my one's own means.

Taking things into context will help one to grow, both spiritually and intellectually.

If you're going to use the Bible alone....you've got a long road ahead of you. If you'll use it along with the studies of wise theologians who've gone before you, the road will be long, but perhaps a bit more fruitful.

Interesting.. You were just using it (or trying to) 'against' me.

I never meant for it to seem that way. That I would not do.

Pax,
-appak

Originally posted by TxSecret



ML,



Now what's the difference between a religion, a fraternity, and "just a club" again?

From Webster's:

Religion: (from the Latin "religare" meaning "to constrain") the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

Fraternity: (from the Latin "frater" meaning "brother") a group of people associated or formally organized for a common purpose, interest, or pleasure: as a : a fraternal order b : GUILD c : a men's student organization formed chiefly for social purposes having secret rites and a name consisting of Greek letters

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by TxSecret
Now what's the difference between a religion, a fraternity, and "just a club" again?

From Webster's:

Religion: (from the Latin "religare" meaning "to constrain") the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

Fraternity: (from the Latin "frater" meaning "brother") a group of people associated or formally organized for a common purpose, interest, or pleasure: as a : a fraternal order b : GUILD c : a men's student organization formed chiefly for social purposes having secret rites and a name consisting of Greek letters

Don't forget:

Club: A group of people organized for a common purpose, esp. a group that meets regularly.


(Seems to me I remember hearing of a Bible Club...somewhere)

ML

Religion: (from the Latin "religare" meaning "to constrain") the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

Fraternity: (from the Latin "frater" meaning "brother") a group of people associated or formally organized for a common purpose, interest, or pleasure: as a : a fraternal order b : GUILD c : a men's student organization formed chiefly for social purposes having secret rites and a name consisting of Greek letters

Breaking it down further:

Fraternity: men's student organization formed chiefly for social purposes having SECRET RITES and a name consisting of Greek letters


Hehe.. how vague.

Definition of Rite again:

Source: education.yahoo.com...
1. The prescribed or customary form for conducting a religious or other solemn ceremony: the rite of baptism.

2. A ceremonial act or series of acts: fertility rites.

3. Rite The liturgy or practice of a branch of the Christian church.

Let me guess.. The rites executed in Freemasonry are not religious are they?

[edit on 10-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
What if you had a hard core Muslim in your 'organization' and he went to one of you meetings.. you are in the middle of some rite or ritual in some initiation that involved 'referencing' 'god' (Or should I say 'a' god) He sees the Bible sitting next to the Koran on an altar. (Or pick any other peice of furniture, doesn't matter in this example) He becomes offended because he knows Christians are considered 'infidels' by Allah (According to the Koran) and he questions 'the great pompous grandiose housemaster knight of the pelican and eagle sovereign prince rose croix of heredom), or whatever you call the 'lead' in this instance'.. what would the answer be?

The answer to what? You didn't ask a question, you just set-up some bizarre hypothetical circumstance surrounding a Muslim Mason who was intolerant of Christians.

If he's a Mason...he is NOT intolerant of Christians.

And by the way not ALL Muslims are intolerant of Christians.....just the fundamentalist ones. (But don't take my word for it....look into it and PLEASE use a legit source...there's enough hatred as it is)

What say you?

I say your mind is made up. Why continue this discussion?

Originally posted by TxSecret
Let me guess.. The rites executed in Freemasonry are not religious are they?

The "rites executed"

Blindfold a guy. Walk him around in a circle. Administer a pledge to keep the secrets. Show him the secret hand-shake. Tell him the secret password. Show him a slide-show of the symbols and explain their meanings. Introduce him to his new brothers. Go downstairs and have some cold sandwiches and a cup of coffee.

Sound religious to you?

All in all I think we call agree that this argument/
debate boils down to the following questions.

1. Is Freemasonry a religion? (I think there is a thread that focuses mainly on this)

2. Is Freemasonry diametrically opposed to the Bible? If Fremasonry is a religion it MOST certainly is.

I think I've done a pretty darned good job shedding some light concerning both of these questions and have distilled down alot of confusion I had prior. (This thread has helped me alot)

For now I'm interested in how Freemasonry could not be a religion in light of everything I've learned. It would be cool if you guys expound on this and in the meanwhile I'll be digging through some threads where this has already been a focus.

Originally posted by TxSecret

Let me guess.. The rites executed in Freemasonry are not religious are they?

As has already been explained to you, the Rites of Masonry are philosophical. So perhaps your question should be re-worded as "Is philosophy religious?".

Inasmuch as the Greek word "philosophy" means "love of wisdom", I must agree with our ancient friend and brother Plato that philosophy is religion in its purist form, i.e., philosophy is truth without the superstition thrown in for good measure.

Appak, is that indicative of ALL the rites executed in Freemasonry? I thought 'god' was involved with some.. ???

Originally posted by TxSecret


For now I'm interested in how Freemasonry could not be a religion in light of everything I've learned. It would be cool if you guys expound on this and in the meanwhile I'll be digging through some threads where this has already been a focus.

Expound on what? It's not the Masons who are confused by the whole 'religion" thing. Masons know that their fraternity is not a religion, and that's pretty much the end of it. If you want to pretend that Masonry is a religion, be my guest, I don't think I'll be losing any sleep over it. But your opinion on the subject is rather irrelevant to Masons, so I'm still not sure exactly what it is you're trying to do.

Originally posted by TxSecret
Appak, is that indicative of ALL the rites executed in Freemasonry? I thought 'god' was involved with some.. ???

Why are you putting God in quotations?

Originally posted by TxSecret
Appak, is that indicative of ALL the rites executed in Freemasonry? I thought 'god' was involved with some.. ???

No, not 'god' but God certainly is. A Freemason must profess a belief in God (not 'a god') but God. The obligations are made in His name and all due reverence is given him. Many of the degrees are based on ancient religions and their search for truth in order gain a better understanding of oneself.

A religion guarantees to "save ones soul." Freemasonry NEVER does that and is therefore NOT a religion.

Many religions (Christian in particular) have "sacraments" Freemasonry does NOT. (Because it is NOT a religion).

As I said earlier, you've obviously made up your mind. You seem sincere (although more than just a bit confused) and that's good.

Follow the path as you see fit.

Pax!
-appak

ML

As has already been explained to you, the Rites of Masonry are philosophical. So perhaps your question should be re-worded as "Is philosophy religious?".

Actually, it should be reworded (can philosophy be used as a religion?).

Get's kind'a hairy doesn't it?

Inasmuch as the Greek word "philosophy" means "love of wisdom", I must agree with our ancient friend and brother Plato that philosophy is religion in its purist form, i.e., philosophy is truth without the superstition thrown in for good measure.

Breaking it down further, "philosophy is truth without superstion thrown in for good measure"

Now to me this is arrogant. Why did Plato think it was his place to say that philosophy was 'truth' (without superstition thrown in for good measure). ?


Philosophy as defined here:

education.yahoo.com...

Love AND PERSUIT of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.

It doesn't say philosophy IS truth.

In this case, the love of wisdom is ALSO the persuit of wisdom.

Allow me to gently point out that *Truth* is relative.. is it not? (Truth can't be ANYTHING but relative.) You obviously have your 'reference point' and I have mine.



[edit on 10-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Ml,

In that particular context I was putting 'god' in quotations. Not God.
You know why I did this..

If you haven't noticed.. I've backed off the assertion that Freemasonry is a religion so that I can debate it more effectively. So why, at this point in time did you say that I'm 'pretending' that Freemasonry is a religion?

Appak.

A religion guarantees to "save ones soul." Freemasonry NEVER does that and is therefore NOT a religion.

umm.. who outlined that 'criteria' in stone??
How many religions are there that DON'T 'guarantee to save your soul'?
Heheh.. a religion in and of itself couldn't save your soul anyways. But that's all relative isn't it?

No, not 'god' but God certainly is. A Freemason must profess a belief in God (not 'a god') but God. The obligations are made in His name and all due reverence is given him. Many of the degrees are based on ancient religions and their search for truth in order gain a better understanding of oneself.

No.. Not God.. but 'god'. It's not possible to have more than one 'god' at just one altar and then turn around and TRY to 'share' it with God. Trust me.. GOD does not share His altars with ANYONE. The 'god' of mohammed is NOT the same God of Israel, Moses, and Jacob. Understanding this would require you to use the Bible as your sole reference. (point)
Not possible at the moment.


I don't think I have to remind you of this but God made provision in the Bible for our salvation through his Son, Jesus. (God himself manifested in the flesh)

The Qu'ran (is it ok to call it Koran?) makes NO such provision. Allah is not the same God that I worship.. at least not according to each respective book. In order to believe that Allah is the same as God in the Bible would imply that one is lying.

You can't divorce 'my' God from his Word.

This is all boiling down to a battle of the 'reference points' isn't it?


Furthermore,

The obligations are made in His name and all due reverence is given him

This is rediculous if the initiate involved in said rite thinks it's 'Allah'. To think otherwise would require you to tell him not to believe in the Qu'ran.

(Sigh)

So if you are a Christian and you just executed in the same rite as your Muslim initiate counterpart, could you sit there with a straight face and tell him that the 'god' that was pointed out in this rite is the same one that you BOTH believe in? You know this is not possible unless BOTH respective initiates put down the core of their 'belief' or 'foundation of truth'. In this case, what 'god' would they be performing this rite under?





[edit on 10-3-2006 by TxSecret]

Originally posted by TxSecret
How many religions are there that DON'T 'guarantee to save your soul'?

You tell me. Religions exist for the salvation of souls. Freemasonry exists to make men better....it doesn't pretend to be a means of salvation.

No.. Not God.. but 'god'. It's not possible to have more than one 'god' at just one altar and then turn around and TRY to 'share' it with God.

Exactly. Because there is but one God. Freemasonry stresses that. It's what the individual believes about that one God that Freemasonry leaves up to him.

Trust me.. GOD does not share His altars with ANYONE. The 'god' of mohammed is NOT the same God of Israel, Moses, and Jacob. Understanding this would require you to use the Bible as your sole reference. (point)

I don't think I have to remind you of this but God made provision in the Bible for our salvation through his Son, Jesus. (God himself manifested in the flesh)

So all the countless millions who've never heard of him are burning in the lake of fire as we speak? Sure doesn't sound very loving of a Creator to me...therefore I don't buy it.

The Qu'ran (is it ok to call it Koran?) makes NO such provision. Allah is not the same God that I worship.. at least not according to each respective book. In order to believe that Allah is the same as God in the Bible would imply that one is lying.

No it would imply that one knew what the word Allah means. It is an Arabic word that means . . . are you ready for this . . . "God" Don't be surprised that a different language uses a different word. The German word is "Gott" (still means God though)

This is all boiling down to a battle of the 'reference points' isn't it?

No, you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of the Abrahamic faiths (of which Christianity is but one), this thread has taken a turn entirely away from the purpose of this site (Conspiracy) and turned into fundamentalist Christianity vs. faith coupled with reason and I resent the implication that I am not a Christian simply because I find no conflict with an organization that allows men of different faiths to participate, which is what this entire thread has become.

I wish you well in your desire to convert non-believers to your personal faith, but I have my own personal faith (which for the record IS Christian...in the original sense of the word and not an aftermarket variation as many of the "newer" versions tend to be) (no offense meant)

This post, as far as I am concerned will conclude our correspondence on this topic unless you do indeed find a "religion" site and would like to continue it there.



Pax Domini Sit Semper Vobiscum!

-appak


[edit on 11-3-2006 by Appak]

Originally posted by TxSecret
Ml,

In that particular context I was putting 'god' in quotations. Not God.
You know why I did this..

You'll have to forgive me if I sau "Huh?". I have no idea why you put God in 'quotations', that's why I asked.

If you haven't noticed.. I've backed off the assertion that Freemasonry is a religion so that I can debate it more effectively. So why, at this point in time did you say that I'm 'pretending' that Freemasonry is a religion?

Ok, let's say you love to play baseball, but you don't consider it your religion. I can come on here a million times and say baseball is a religion, but if you, who practice it, don't consider it your religion, then there would be some sort of fallacy in my logic.

This is rediculous if the initiate involved in said rite thinks it's 'Allah'. To think otherwise would require you to tell him not to believe in the Qu'ran.

I think you're missing the point. Freemasonry is concerned with philosophical concepts in regard to morality and actions. It is NOT concerned with whether an initiate is a Methodist, Muslim, or Mennonite. People from all religions are able to understand moral truths, and that God has created us with a moral sense. Anything outside of this concerning one's personal religious beliefs has nothing to do with Masonry.

So if you are a Christian and you just executed in the same rite as your Muslim initiate counterpart, could you sit there with a straight face and tell him that the 'god' that was pointed out in this rite is the same one that you BOTH believe in?

The fact that the Muslim and Christian have different personal views concerning God is completely irrelevant in Freemasonry. The only thing we care about is that both understand that there are certain moral truths that we are obliged to live by. Everyone falls under the same moral law, regardless of his religion.

You know this is not possible unless BOTH respective initiates put down the core of their 'belief' or 'foundation of truth'. In this case, what 'god' would they be performing this rite under?

The Rite is not being performed under God. The Rite is a dramatic allegory created by philosophers in order to convey moral and ethical teachings.

Originally posted by TxSecret



Actually, it should be reworded (can philosophy be used as a religion?).

Philosophy in itself cannot be used as a religion, although metaphysics are often inherently spiritual.

Get's kind'a hairy doesn't it?

Actually, it's pretty cut and dried. Religion contains philosophy, but also contains many other elements as well.

Allow me to gently point out that *Truth* is relative.. is it not? (Truth can't be ANYTHING but relative.)

No, it's not. If something is truth, it must be objective. If I claim that two plus two equals four, I'm either telling the truth, or I'm in error. We can't say that it equals four to me, but equals five to you. Such "relative truth" is, of course, absurd.