The Truth about the Jehovah Witness

originally posted by: LocutusofBorg001
whereislogic, you could special pioneer with the time you spend spewing your version of God here.

How many hours have you accrued on this particular thread?

Are you a Pioneer?

I had to go look that up. Never heard of that before.

The sad thing is ... whereislogic probably spent hours of time on those posts. And all they are to most people here, myself included, are walls of JW rhetoric and twisted scripture, that no one will bother reading. What a waste of time.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: whereislogic

...
The destruction of Babylon the Great and the result for it's members is for another thread discussion and is much deeper with the latest information...spontaneous faith now being available to every single Christian on the planet, regardless of denominations held.

Is that faith alive rather than dead (James 2:14-20,26)? Does it come with accurate understanding and "accurate knowledge" or is it blind, misguided or misdirected and "not according to accurate knowledge" (Rom 10:2)? Surely one doesn't want to give people the wrong impression regarding their "faith" (in Jesus, as claimed, but not Jehovah God, since to those in the majority of Christendom, these 2 individuals are one and the same, which isn't the truth of the matter, so they do not have faith in Jehovah, nor do they exercise their faith by works in accordance with "the righteousness of God", which includes obeying Jesus when it comes to worshipping Jehovah exclusively and not worshipping and rendering "sacred service" to Jesus instead, Luke 4:8).

Romans 10

Brothers, the goodwill of my heart and my supplication to God for them are indeed for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. 3 For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the Law: “The man who does these things will live by means of them.” 6 But the righteousness resulting from faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ that is, to bring Christ down, 7 or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your own mouth and in your own heart”; that is, “the word” of faith, which we are preaching. 9 For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead [whereislogic: Jehovah God raised Jesus up, not Jesus himself because Jesus was dead, and the Bible explains that those who are dead cannot do anything, Eccl. 9:5, 10, let alone raise themselves up from the dead. As believed and sometimes expressed as such by Trinitarians and Binitarians.], you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.

11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward* [Or “who gives richly to; who is generous toward.”] all those calling on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

16 Nevertheless, they did not all obey the good news. For Isaiah says: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard from us?”* [Or “in our report (message).”] 17 So faith follows the thing heard. In turn, what is heard is through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the ends of the inhabited earth their message.” 19 But I ask, Israel did not fail to know, did they? First Moses says: “I will incite you to jealousy through that which is not a nation; I will incite you to violent anger through a foolish nation.” 20 But Isaiah becomes very bold and says: “I was found by those who were not seeking me; I became known to those who were not asking for me.” 21 But he says regarding Israel: “All day long I have spread out my hands toward a disobedient and obstinate people.”

James 2:14-20, 26 (I know, I already quoted some of these verses in my first response to you)

Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing* [Lit., “are naked.”] and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? [whereislogic: now consider this text in regards to spiritual food, food from God's mouth, or word, the Bible. What people 'need for their mind and heart'. And what I mentioned earlier about 'holding back' important information that is applicable, honest and accurate; information that is crucial for waking up to what's going on in one's own heart and mind, and even their "deepest emotions", lit. "kidneys". See Jeremiah 17:9,10.] 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?
. . .
26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit* [Or “breath.”] is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Luke 4:8

In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”* [Or “and you must serve only him.”]

Later, when the apostle John fell down before an angel, the angel said to him: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. Worship God.”—Revelation 19:10.

"Jehovah your God" as Jesus said. Otherwise the angel would (or should) have said "Jesus your God", if that is who he meant (according to Trinitarians and Binitarians whenever they read something like that in the Bible). He did after all just mention Jesus, so how hard would that be to make that clear, he could have said "Jesus God" as well (since the expression "Jehovah God" appears many times in the Bible as well, clearly identifying who this is by using their personal name, just as Jesus did when referring to Exo 20:3, Deut 6:13, and Deut 10:20 at Luke 4:8).

originally posted by: Topcraft
a reply to: Topcraft

...
Topcraft: Did you not say something about discouraging the use of walls of Scripture in the OP ?

Topcraft: Yes, that was upfront right from the beginning.

Topcraft: They didn’t listen to your requests did they, in fact it seems they disregarded them entirely

Topcraft: No they did not, and I thought I made myself pretty clear, maybe I didn’t

...

Topcraft: Then why are they still doing it?

Topcraft: Not really sure about that, maybe they think I left, and now they have free rein here.

...

Perhaps if you had truly listened to "the sayings of God" (John 8:47) as found in His Word, the Bible, that were brought up, rather than trying to paint a discrediting picture for others as to why that may be the case (or attempt to fit their* commentary in that picture for oneself; *: "their" is referring to your use of "they", not these "others" I just spoke about) regardless of what was actually said or quoted, you would have known and understood the true answer to that bolded question. Since the answer was quoted from God's word of truth, the Bible, before. Because:

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Tim 3:16,17)

So it's a good habit to quote Scriptures to help people better understand something about themselves, the more the better (if it helps elaborate on any point that was made).

"For what reason? Because I do not love you? God knows I do.

But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:11-15)

It's a sign of both love and respect for anyone reading these Scriptures, these beneficial teachings, these truths, including you. Regardless of the amount of appreciation or wish/request (as formed by your desires or preferences, see 2 Tim 4:3,4) on your or their part. I'll leave the 'tickling of people's ears' (telling them what they want to hear, rather than what they don't want to "put up with") to other people who prefer to do that (but I may point out that that is what they are doing, for the same reason again, out of love and respect for them, so they can resist the one encouraging that behaviour and cease that modus operandi, the one "who is misleading the entire inhabited earth", Rev. 12:9).

A bit more elaboration on the modus operandi of 'tickling people's ears' (again for the same reason and for everyone who may be willing to read this and let it touch their hearts, 'get the sense of it' as Jesus described it at Mt 13:13-15):

Flattery (Insight on the Scriptures)

The act of pleasing by artful commendation; adulation; false, insincere, or excessive praise. It is usually done to gratify the self-love or vanity of the one flattered and is therefore damaging to him. Its motive is to gain favor or material benefits from another, to create a feeling of obligation toward the flatterer or to bring glory to him. Often it is designed to lead the other person into a trap. (Pr 29:5) The use of flattery is not evidence of the wisdom from above; it is of this world, being characterized by selfishness, the making of partial distinctions, and hypocrisy. (Jas 3:17) Insincerity, lying, adulating or glorifying men, and playing on the vanity of others are all displeasing to God.​—2Co 1:12; Ga 1:10; Eph 4:25; Col 3:9; Re 21:8.

A contrast of the Christian course with that of flattery is found in the apostle’s words at 1 Thessalonians 2:3-6: “For the exhortation we give does not arise from error or from uncleanness or with deceit, but, just as we have been proved by God as fit to be entrusted with the good news, so we speak, as pleasing, not men, but God, who makes proof of our hearts. In fact, at no time have we turned up either with flattering speech, (just as you know) or with a false front for covetousness, God is witness! Neither have we been seeking glory from men, no, either from you or from others, though we could be an expensive burden as apostles of Christ.”

While the use of flattery may appear to be the gainful course, the Bible points out that “he that is reproving a man will afterward find more favor than he will that is flattering with his tongue.” (Pr 28:23) When a person employs flattery to gain advantage over another person, it is the opposite of love. A hater may resort to flattery but will eventually have his deceptiveness roll back on him like a stone.​—Pr 26:24-28.

Flattery employs smooth talk in order to beguile its victim. The expressions “flattery,” “smooth tongue (lip, or words)” (Ps 5:9; 12:2, 3; Da 11:32), “smoothness” (Pr 7:21; Da 11:34, ftn), and “double-faced” (Eze 12:24, ftn) are translations of the Hebrew root word cha·laqʹ or related words. In every Bible instance cited, the motive of the smooth talker is bad.

...

I can honestly say, I am not a smooth talker, someone whose words are easily swallowed because it tickles people's ears, it pleases them to hear what is said (just what they wanted to hear; I try to do the opposite). Proverbs 26:20-28:

20 Where there is no wood, the fire goes out,

And where there is no slanderer, quarreling ceases.

21 As charcoal for the embers and wood for the fire,

So a contentious man kindles a quarrel.

22 The words of a slanderer are like tasty morsels;* [Or “like things to be swallowed greedily.”] [whereislogic: I don't think the words and teachings I am relaying from God are easily or eagerly swallowed, nor my introductory words or additional remarks about them.]

They are gulped right down into the stomach.

23 Like a silver glazing over a piece of earthenware

Are affectionate words from* an evil heart. [*: Lit., “fervent lips with.”]

24 The one who hates others disguises it with his lips,

But inside he harbors deceit.

25 Although he speaks graciously, do not trust him,

For there are seven detestable things in his heart.* [Or “For his heart is completely detestable.”]

26 Though his hatred is concealed by deceit,

His evil will be exposed in the congregation.

27 The one who digs a pit will fall into it,

And whoever rolls away a stone—it will come back on him.

28 A lying tongue hates those crushed by it,

And a flattering mouth causes ruin.

A paintjob designed to discredit (or for character assasination, inaccurately/incorrectly put something or someone in a negative light, or inaccurately/incorrectly cast something someone has said or done in a negative way, as something "bad", wrong, disrespectful, immoral, unrighteous, unfriendly, unloving, antisocial, judgemental, etc.; or inaccurately/incorrectly assigning or painting negatively sounding motivations to what someone has done or said which are not the true motivations of that person or those persons), is often slander, sometimes, it comes in the form of ridicule (or scoff, accompanied by disdain and sometimes a demonstration of a lack of respect for those inaccurately/incorrectly painted in a negative light as described at Isa 5:20 for example).

Ridicule (Insight on the Scriptures)

... Ridiculers often refuse to listen to rebuke (Pr 13:1) and do not love those reproving them. (Pr 9:7, 8; 15:12) Nevertheless, they should be disciplined for the benefit of others. (Pr 9:12; 19:25, 29; 21:11) ...

... Job was falsely accused of deriding others (Job 11:3), whereas, in reality, he was the one derided, mocked, and made a laughingstock for his course of integrity. (Job 12:4; 17:2; 21:3)

originally posted by: whereislogic
...

A paintjob designed to discredit (or for character assasination, inaccurately/incorrectly put something or someone in a negative light, or inaccurately/incorrectly cast something someone has said or done in a negative way, as something "bad", wrong, disrespectful, immoral, unrighteous, unfriendly, unloving, antisocial, judgemental, etc.; or inaccurately/incorrectly assigning or painting negatively sounding motivations to what someone has done or said which are not the true motivations of that person or those persons), is often slander, sometimes, it comes in the form of ridicule (or scoff, accompanied by disdain and sometimes a demonstration of a lack of respect for those inaccurately/incorrectly painted in a negative light as described at Isa 5:20 for example).

Is it time for another repetition of Scripture? I don't know how many times I've quoted it yet, but since I brought it up again above, just as a reminder what it says there (and because it seems to happen a lot, the pattern of behaviour or modus operandi is used and repeated a lot as well):

“Woe to those who say that good is bad and bad is good,

Those who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness,

Those who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Woe to those wise in their own eyes

And discreet in their own sight!” (Isaiah 5:20,21)

Quoting Scripture is "good", manipulating people to ignore Scripture (for whatever reason, such as accompanied by the argument, 'it's too much', or 'too much at once', 'a wall of Scripture') or convincing oneself to ignore it or ignore the opportunity to look into the possibility the quoted scriptures may apply to oneself, is "bad" (and not good or healthy for a person, i.e. bad or unhealthy for one's mind and heart, and it makes the job of the one "misleading the entire inhabited earth", Rev. 12:9, so much easier, i.e. it becomes easier for him to deceive the one behaving in this manner, or being manipulated or encouraged to behave in this manner). According to God (his word, the Bible; coming back to 2 Tim 3:16,17 and 4:3,4 quoted in my previous comment and commentary, note 3:16,17 are the last verses in that chapter, 4:3,4 follows shortly thereafter, it's related to eachother*), who sets the standard for "good" and "bad" because He knows human beings better than we know ourselves, so He knows what is good or bad for us. And as our Creator, He also has the right to set that standard. (*: there were no chapters when the Bible was written, the text just continues, so for example, the "beneficial teaching" mentioned at 4:3 is referring to the same description of "all Scripture" being "beneficial for teaching" mentioned at 3:16.)

There is one text I haven't even quoted in its entirety once in all my commentary in this thread, Rev. 12:9 (I'll add a few verses, cause it contains an important warning for us here on earth at the end):

9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls* [Or “lives.”] even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

His time is almost up, so he has upped his game, "so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones." (Matt 24:24) Which, if it were not possible, would have been explained in Jesus' warning there as well, or he wouldn't have brought it up at all (just a quick reminder for those it applies to or those thinking this is not possible because of what they have been taught by the doctrines of men, regardless in which organization these men are found; cause Satan is very tricky when trying to entrap people to be dishonest about something to someone, coming up with cunning arguments why a Christian should go along with that, be OK with it, or feel justified about it as if the behaviour is in accordance with Jehovah's will because certain men explained it that way).

originally posted by: FlyersFan
...What a waste of time.

It actually has a number of benefits to me as well. It allows me to read up on Scripture, and learn where in the Bible to find which descriptions of human behaviour and specific patterns of behaviour (so I can recall the Bible book chapter and verses without having to use google so much), in so doing gain understanding of this world and its people, and see the evidence with my own eyes in their responses* for a personal observation (*: or commentary about my commentary or the scriptures, i.e. words of God, in them, and their attitudes towards these beneficial teachings and truths/facts/certainties/realities, since that is what many of these scriptures describe). Hence it is as much part of my education, as it could be to anyone receptive to "the sayings of God" (John 8:47). In that light, I would also like to take the opportunity to thank you for providing said "evidence" (or a demonstration of the scriptures quoted concerning human behaviour and specific patterns of human behaviour and "molded" or conditioned attitudes, Rom 12:2), or contributing to that mountain of evidence, increasing the pile, so to speak.

Education (Insight on the Scriptures)

The imparting or acquisition of knowledge and skill. Education is accomplished through (1) explanation and repetition; (2) discipline, training administered in love (Pr 1:7; Heb 12:5, 6); (3) personal observation (Ps 19:1-3; Ec 1:12-14); (4) reproof and rebuke (Ps 141:5; Pr 9:8; 17:10).

Jehovah God is the great Educator and Instructor, of whom there is no equal. (Job 36:22; Ps 71:17; Isa 30:20) ...

So I don't mind spending time on it. Even if no one truly listens or reads with an effort to truly understand and 'get the sense of it' (Matthew 13:13-15). Even if they "will not put up with" it because it doesn't 'tickle their ears according to their desires' (2 Tim 4:3,4) as expressed several times (often involving the notion that it's too much and the expression "wall of Scripture", or a variation on TLDR, which can also be interpreted as 'Too Long Don't Read' when pointed out for others or to influence others who might read, attentively, and truly listen to "the sayings of God" so that He can "heal them" from what "the ruler of this world", Jn 12:31, and his "system of things", 2 Cor 4:4; Rom 12:2, has done to their minds and hearts, by "molding" those "according to his own disposition", Jn 8:44). It would still benefit me at least (although that's not my main motive, but it's a nice bonus). And in light of nr.2 described above under "education", time for another "repetition" because I brought it up again, it was demonstrated again, and it's been a while (I don't think it's on this page yet at least).

John 8:42-47

Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to* [Or “accept.”] my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? 47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

Matthew 13:13-15

That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it. 14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’

“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.” (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

“And stop being molded by this system of things,* [ Or “this age.”] but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (Romans 12:2)

2 Corinthians 4:3-9

If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination* [Or “light.”] of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. 5 For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. [whereislogic: no matter how much time it costs me and regardless if it's appreciated or not.] 6 For God is the one who said: “Let the light shine out of darkness,” and he has shone on our hearts to illuminate them with the glorious knowledge of God by the face of Christ.

7 However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not from us. 8 We are hard-pressed in every way, but not cramped beyond movement; we are perplexed, but not absolutely with no way out;* [Or possibly, “but not left in despair.”] we are persecuted, but not abandoned; we are knocked down, but not destroyed.

Just for quick reference so a person doesn't have to go back to previous pages (perhaps I haven't actually quoted the last one above yet in this thread, but I could be mistaken about that, actually, it may be more likely that I have).

a reply to: LocutusofBorg001

Welcome!

Two actual questions, let’s see if you are lucky enough to get answers. If you asked me, my answer would be: Either far too many or not nearly enough. That jury’s still out. And a resounding NO!

It’s really not that hard to engage in this thread and it’s nice to see some new faces. I was a lurker for a long time, and became a member to reply to something, I know you guys are out there. Become a member, and share your opinion. It’s free, easy, and anonymous. If you do that, pop in and say hi. It helps others to know someone’s listening out there.

... like I said, walls of JW propaganda text and twisted scripture that no one reads.

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: FlyersFan
...What a waste of time.

So I don't mind spending time on it. Even if no one truly listens or reads with an effort to truly understand and 'get the sense of it' (Matthew 13:13-15). Even if they "will not put up with" it because it doesn't 'tickle their ears according to their desires' (2 Tim 4:3,4) as expressed several times (often involving the notion that it's too much and the expression "wall of Scripture", or a variation on TLDR, which can also be interpreted as 'Too Long Don't Read' when pointed out for others or to influence others who might read, attentively, and truly listen to "the sayings of God" so that He can "heal them" from what "the ruler of this world", Jn 12:31, and his "system of things", 2 Cor 4:4; Rom 12:2, has done to their minds and hearts, by "molding" those "according to his own disposition", Jn 8:44). It would still benefit me at least (although that's not my main motive, but it's a nice bonus). And in light of nr.2 described above under "education", time for another "repetition" because I brought it up again, it was demonstrated again, and it's been a while (I don't think it's on this page yet at least).

I usually like to read your posts. Especially dealing with the origin of life. Even if I've read most of the quotes already. It's funny you come up with a lot of the same articles and quotes I would think of in my head.

I recall when i was around 13 no it was 14 I remember because I had just been baptized and I was standing in the parking lot to Mcnichols Sports Arena at a District convention helping with the parking. That has long since been replaced with Ball Arena, used to be called Pepsi Center. Denver has its own assembly hall now so the JWs don't have to rent out the big arenas like they used to for the assemblies and conventions. I remember when we rented out Mile High Stadium one summer. I think that was when Mcnichols and been torn down and Pepsi Center was being built or had been built already. But the brothers wouldn't rent out Pepsi Center because the new owners wanted to open their concession stands while the Convention was running. And the brothers refused to allow commercial enterprises into the worship of God.

I was with an older brother and a truck drove by full of punk kids and they honked and started name-calling and blaspheming Jehovah's name and they drove off cussing us out flipping us the bird. The usual name calling that goes on in these threads by the people who claim to serve Jesus and believe in the Bible.

The brother looked at me and said, "I used to be just like them. An insolent man. And hated the JWs with a passion."

You see the Churches of Christendom are good at lying to the people, and fomenting hatred in their subjects. That is why they are so eager to slaughter each other. They serve a mystery unknowable God that is vindictive and hateful and is ridig and burns people forever. So they reflect their God in their attitudes. In their crusades and wars and mass murders of people.

You gave much evidence to the fruit their Churches bear, even showing how many hundreds of millions of people were slaughtered in the 20th Century with the support, and sometimes at the behest of the Church. And these people who are in these Churches don't bat an eyebrow at the horrendous crimes against humanity their Churches perpetuate. The lies their clergy tell, and the pagan and unholy traditions, dogmas, teachings, and holidays they celebrate. Mired in satanic and demonic evil, how do you expect them to react when they see the light of Bible truth?

The testimony of a former Catholic
I Put the Truth on Trial

Talking about some of the vicious persecution the Catholic Church perpetuated on God's people in Quebec, Canada:

The Legalization of the Work in Quebec

An experience of a brother that faced much hatred and persecution by the clergy of the Catholic Church and the mobs they would stir up:

Sandy Turner: Nothing Can Stop Jehovah’s Work

a reply to: Topcraft

Topcraft: Hey Topcraft. You still here?

Topcraft: Yep

Topcraft: Do you ever get the feeling that when you talk to a JW, the scripture they use to try to make you look bad, actually
PROVES what you say about them?

Topcraft: You know what? That thought has crossed my mind, and is proof that great minds think alike!

Topcraft: Bad joke Top

Topcraft: Yeah, maybe I should cancel my gig at the club this week, I’m booked as: Topcraft the Catholic Comedian.

Something to ponder.

During World War II, Canada established several types of labor camps for various groups, primarily focusing on enemy aliens, conscientious objectors, and prisoners of war (POWs).

Conscientious Objectors
Religious Pacifists: Individuals who, due to religious beliefs (e.g., Mennonites, Quakers, and Jehovah’s Witnesses), refused military service were placed in alternative service camps. These camps often involved forestry work, road building, and other labor-intensive tasks.

During World War II, approximately 10,000 Jehovah's Witnesses were persecuted by the Nazi regime in Germany. Of these, about 2,000 were sent to concentration camps. Jehovah's Witnesses were targeted because of their refusal to pledge allegiance to the state, serve in the military, or participate in activities they viewed as supporting the Nazi regime, due to their religious beliefs. This refusal was seen as defiance and a threat to the totalitarian control exercised by the Nazis, leading to their harsh persecution.

Is it fair to say all Christians who declined to fight for the Nazi's regardless of denomination were within their rights to follow their God given conscience?

Would not the same apply to the Canadian Christians that did the same and were sent to labor camps for their beliefs as well?

Meanwhile thousands of German Catholics killed American and Canadian Catholics, Italian Catholics killed both sides depending on when in the war we are talking about.
Christians killing Christians, if more people had acted like the Bibelforscher Hitler would have never made it into power.

True faith takes enormous courage in the face of certain persecution and possibly even death.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Since you are finally starting to talk as a person, I’ll answer.

You forget the whole “ render unto Caesar “ thing. And if you want to talk about suffering, I can’t even begin to tell you, how many Catholics have died for their faith since the third Century, do you know?

Yes, German Catholics killed American and Canadian Catholics. I lost 2 uncles in WW2. So what’s your point? That’s what war is. Both sides kill each other no matter the religion. Some get upset, when people that live in a country, under the protection, and all the benefits that are provided, disappear when that country is in dire need. Was WW2 justified? If no one fought those Nazi’s, and the evil that was perpetrated by them. You wouldn’t be here today to even have an opinion.

How many JW died fighting evil? None. They may have died in the conflict, but did jack when asked to help. So what are you really trying to say? Words don’t stop evil, they expose it. Someone still has to do the dirty work, and that’s not you is it.

What you do is isolate yourself from the world. Did David stop Goliath with words? I heard it was a rock from his sling that was planted between his eyes, then with Goliaths own sword he beheaded him. All in the name of Jehovah God, his country, and his people. Or am I wrong about that? Everything you say proves my points. It’s really entertaining but sad.

Fight the evil in your own organization, you don’t need a gun for that. Don’t know what that evil is? Try reading the news. Or if you like, keep hiding I really don’t care. And you wonder why most either hate you outright, or just have a strong dislike for you as an organization. AWAKE ? I hardly doubt it. What you need to do is wake up. You don’t like what I say do you. Now is when you disengage, and throw up that wall of scripture. You gave up any ability to think for yourself. Or to have a conversation.

Answer the questions you are asked, or look like fool, the choice is yours.

a reply to: Topcraft

You forget the whole “ render unto Caesar “ thing.

I don't, but of coarse that applies mostly to taxation and other laws that are generally in place to protect and organize society and they aren't exactly bad.

Act 5:29

But Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than any human authority.

Jesus gave two laws to replace the Mosaic law....
Matthew 22:39

A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’'

Tough to follow once your government legalizes your ability to murder "their" proclaimed enemy.

Given the tone of your post for war I have a quote from an American Major General worth thinking about.

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

Retired General -Smedley Butler

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Smedley said that? Really? Well in that case…….

That’s pretty rich, you explaining what war is to me. Very ironic also.

Are you even capable of having a conversation on this subject, or are you really that far gone? You may not be in a Cult but you sure show every sign that you are. Guess the whole story about David and Goliath isn’t in your bible, you change that too? Or is it there, And you’re picking and choosing which words of God YOU think he was wrong to say?

I’m beginning to believe, that you don’t believe in God at all. No one that does could be as devious as you are. So in the dark and kept there, so you can’t see the light. There is an entity that loves to keep us in the dark, to hide in those shadows. To keep us blind. That’s what holds you, what controls you. I doubt you even read these words I’m typing. You most likely have to clear responses with your handler. Prove me wrong, I’ve been waiting.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Blue_Jay33, are you keeping track of and submitting your time you are spending here on ATS? Are you a Pioneer?

Let's see if *you* have a pair and actually answer, unlike whereislogic who just puts up walls and walls of twisted NWT scripture that no one reads. What a waste. But the good news is y'all can report all that wasted time to Watchtower Kult Headquarters . . . and anyone who knows how that operates realizes that your righteousness is measured by the time y'all spend doing just that . . . putting up walls of twisted NWT scripture.

I know how it all works. Because I was a "Born In" for 45 of my 70 years. Now I have a personal and real relationship with Christ rather than one mediated by the WTBTS.

a reply to: Topcraft

They will not answer tough questions but prefer to deflect. J Dubs have no original thought. Original thought is vilified and demonized within that Kult organization. They are mindless drones . . . like The Borg.

Either far too many or not nearly enough

Exactly

Never was there a more apt metaphor for the Watchtower Kult that The Borg.

Hence my forum name.

Been a lurker here forever.

a reply to: LocutusofBorg001

Its not about time, its about truth.

My favorite scripture is
John 4:24

God is a spirit. Those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

At least your still a Christian, and believe the bible.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Typical Deflection, never answer the question. You just proved the point I was making.

LOL! No need to respond, in fact please don't.

a reply to: Topcraft

I’m beginning to believe, that you don’t believe in God at all.

Well if you can say that, I can say this, your comprehension of the bible is limited, go study it some more, pray more to God, and ask for full understanding, and be humble about it, use his personal name.
You just never know what could happen for you, to attain the path to truth you need the holy spirit, we do not get that without truth. Intellectual honesty is key, if you can not attain that you will forever be stuck in a spiritual rut spinning your tires.

a reply to: Topcraft

I’m beginning to believe, that you don’t believe in God at all

The J Dubs do not worship God. They worship the WTBTS which tells them what to believe. "The Society" has placed themselves between their members and God/Jehovah/Jesus and acts as their mediator. They have usurped the position of Christ here on earth. No one gets to God/Jehovah/Jesus except through them. A very dangerous place to be.

Every.
Single.
Thing.
They.
Believe.

. . . Comes from "The Society" who interprets scripture and prophecy *for* them. If it is not from "The Society" it is from Satan. Independent thought is demonized and those who dare to interpret the NWT differently from "The Society" faces a Judicial Committee re : Star Chamber Justice Committee. If they do not fall into lock step with "The Society" they face censure and/or excommunication. But you having been a JW, you already know these things.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

My comprehension of YOUR bible, is most definitely limited. In fact i have none. My comprehension of THE BIBLE is just fine.

I use the true name of God everyday. The Holy Ghost is with me every day.

If you never question your beliefs, you’re just a robot that’s being programmed by your handlers. Jesus Christ himself questioned the father when he was hanging on the cross. Was he wrong to do that? How are we to understand if we don’t ask questions? How are we to learn?

I refuse to believe anything that comes out of JW period. Why would, or should anyone trust you? You prove nothing.
Try using some of that “intellectual honesty”, with us. Then you might learn something. Our Borg buddy became a Christian, he wasn’t before, and you are not now!