The Truth about the Jehovah Witness

Oh boy here we go.......

My family comes from a very heavy Catholic background we are talking nuns and priests the whole nine yards.
I know for a fact that any Catholic practicing or not, that accuses JW's, doesn't have a leg to stand on, that group, not individuals, has a track record of great evil.

Look at the history of WW2 for one


Meanwhile the bible students are all dying in concentration camps refusing to fight in Hitlers armies.

As Jesus said by their fruits you will know them, I have seen and heard them both from my family and studied history, I know the answer.

a reply to: KKLOCO

Thank you very much. The consequences that you suffered hurt me to the core. I hope and pray that you haven’t abandoned God because of what you have suffered under the JW. It must have been an extremely tough decision. I believe it to be the right one.

No one can isolate you from God unless you let them. Unfortunately they can and will separate you from your family, destroying you in the process. I hope we can get some answers here. I don’t have the desire or need to turn anyone from their faith. I do however defend the Bible as written, no additions, no subtraction. As a Christian, how can I not? I have no problem with someone changing words like thee, and thou to you and him, but don’t change the message that was intended. You have to be very careful.

I started this op with pastor Russell for a reason. He was there from the beginning. His Character and motives are the lynch pin of JW. The Truth starts there.

a reply to: Topcraft

To make this short, 1975 came, and with it the JW prophecy of the end of the world, they talked about it constantly. Sold the house and a small business, and went to rural South Dakota to wait it out.

Yet, another ‘prophetic blunder’ by the Jdubs. Ironically, my father talked about it nonstop. He had the right, as he was a ‘Bethelite’ in Brooklyn from 70-74 when the propaganda mill was at its height.

The problem here is you either have extremely bad reading comprehension which I highly doubt, or you twisted what I said to prove your narrative. You are taught that every person of faith outside the JW hates you.

You’re absolutely right. RU does not have reading comprehension problems. He’s very intelligent, in fact, The problem is, JW’s are taught the method of hard deflection, from birth — to ANYTHING they don’t have a direct answer for.

Your last sentence is somewhat misleading. JW’s don’t believe everything hates them. They just believe everyone that’s not one of them, will not survive Armageddon. So they have a way of disconnecting from the ‘world’. Which ironically is the exact word they call everyone not in the religion - ‘worldly’.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Thanks for coming, just as you reminded me in your thread that I was off topic, I will point out that you are off topic here.

Not trying to be snippy, but this topic is about the truth of the JW belief. As a Roman Catholic I would be the first one willing to talk about the absolute horrors that were perpetrated by the HRCC. From the crusades to the Vatican offering sanctuary to Nazi’s and helping them to reach South America to escape justice. They truly have much to answer for. That’s the makings of a really interesting op. Maybe I will get into that next.

Good Christians of any ilk have every right to call out abuses of the faith, especially someone who is Christian in name only. Not all Catholics are good Christians, most are.

a reply to: KKLOCO

Thanks for the correction, I’m sorry I misspoke. This is why your presence here is important. You have an inside perspective.

a reply to: Topcraft

Then you are scared about talking about that, I see what you are doing, I am out as well, I won't play that game.

Next topic......

ATS glitch’s becoming more apparent. I did not post this. Just edited my last post and this appeared….

a reply to: andy06shake

Nobody is born good or evil nugget1.

That's why I said potential . We all have the potential to be either good or evil; most will fall somewhere near the middle.

a reply to: nugget1

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

No, not scared at all, actually highly interested. But the HRCC deserves it own Thread. I will do it next, or would you like to? If you do, call it, “The Truth about the Roman Catholic Church “. If you give me a little time, I believe I can get an ordained priest to answer questions. Maybe it’s better for me to start it. Either way whatever.

I’ll give you a pass, you really don’t know me. If you did you wouldn’t accuse me of playing games. I never play games.
In the course of my semi long life experience, I have had occasions where I’ve had to be as serious as a heart attack and just as deadly. Those experiences taught me not to play games. Playing games always has unintended repercussions.

So, I left your thread out of courtesy because I was definitely off topic, and had nothing intelligent to say on what you were discussing. I expected you to do the same here when you went off topic. If you want to discuss this subject please stay, but if you think I’m playing games, all I can say is don’t let the door hit you in the buttocks on the way out.

a reply to: Shoshanna

Freemasons ..believe in A "Higher" power....not "The" Higher Power.

"God" by many names, the Grand Architect".

Many Masonic ATS'rs here.....

a reply to: Topcraft

Your opening post said this....

Its purpose is to discuss the JW organization, and the truth regarding its teaching, it’s relation to Christianity and other religions.

So it's disingenuous of you to say I can't talk about this according to your opening post, and I am off topic.
Catholicism has been responsible for much persecution of it's fellow Christians look what they did to John Wycliffe who was very important in bible translation and an ex-catholic priest himself.

What upsets me the most is you don't really know the interaction Catholics have had with the Bible Students/JW's.
The persecution they have put onto them around the world in the past, branding them heretics if we were in the dark ages they would all be burned at the stake. Anybody who disagreed with them in the past were hunted down and killed.

Christian groups I admire for their stand in the past, the Lollards and Waldensians for example.
And not to long ago the Catholics were responsible for the persecution of JW's in Quebec, Canada.

Even as recent as 1994 in the Rwanda Genocide.
Some Catholic clergy were directly involved in the killings. Churches, which traditionally served as sanctuaries, became sites of mass murder where thousands of Tutsi sought refuge only to be slaughtered by militias, sometimes with the cooperation or encouragement of priests and nuns.

So don't throw stones from a glass house, OK ?

originally posted by: KKLOCO
a reply to: randomuser2034

Hey RU,

First off, I think I’ve made it clear that I like you as a person. I think you and I could go back and forth about the JW’s for literally YEARS. However, I don’t want to do that, nor do I have the time.

What I would like to hear from you is a response about the origins of the JW Religion. You always seem to deflect discussion about this. There is no question that Charles T. Russel was a Freemason. There is also no question that he came up with the 1914 date, from measurements inside the Great Pyramid at Giza. What are the JW’s takes on these facts now? I couldn’t get an answer back in 2001 when I asked the elders in and around my congregation. Which helped me make my decision to leave.

Hey KKLOCO. I read your comment yesterday and remembered I had answered you awhile ago about that. And took some time and found the replies about Russell and Freemasonry:

Reply 1

Reply 2

Here is some irony for the OP that just occurred to me. The author of the OP seems to have an aversion to God's personal name. And it is true that the Catholic Church has forbid its use. Even the use of words that contains Jehovah's name such as Jah (a shortened form of Jehovah) and Hallelujah (meaning Praise Jah).

And I noticed that this thread made it to top front page. And it carries with it the name of Jehovah. So the name they have tried so hard (in vain) to hide, they help make prominent and known. In fact it was probably the first time in ATS history that the name of Jehovah made it to top of front page.

Doing God's work without even knowing. And a witness is given to Jehovah's name by the person trying most to hide it.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Okay, let’s do this. You are right, and I was disingenuous. Does this make you happy? Does it make you at least less angry?.

I am human, and a sinner, and freely admit it. I am a follower. I mean to discuss the truth of the JW teachings, and would like you to understand, that this is what was intended. You have problems with the RCC. Understood. If you really feel the need, flame away, but what it’s going to do is deflect from the topic as stated in the title of the post. That is what I intended, I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear enough.

Forgive me, but this is my first op since I joined in 2012. I’m new at this sort of thing. Cut me just a little slack, and I will try to get better.

I have said that I am more than willing to discuss the RCC, both the good and the bad. I told you that I would try to get an ordained Catholic priest to address questions and concerns that I can’t. But it is better to do that separately in a dedicated op. I will start it today if you request it, but I’m not really prepared to do it at the moment. Have a little patience.

Your post shows you don’t like the RCC. I have no problem with that opinion. I don’t like what the JW do to their fellow members, it’s not about what they do to others. if it will make you happy tho, I will talk to some of your points.

Yes there is a great evil in the Catholic Church. It shows it’s its presence regularly. It infiltrated the Church long ago, and continues to. We know this, we were warned it would happen. We also know exactly who is responsible for it.

Persecution in Canada by Catholics? Is it righteous? I doubt it. But realize that there is a massive class action suit up there that just went to court on the 23rd of May this year that is about the abuses of the JW, I believe centered on pedophiles.
Catholics hate pedophiles. We have many in our own church that prey on our children, we don’t like it when it happens to us, we don’t like it when it happens to others.

Rwanda. Seems to me, that in Africa, and I could be wrong about this, far more Christians have been murdered for their faith than the JW. Mostly by another large religion. In fact how many Christian’s do you estimate were killed from the first century when Christ came to us, till yesterday? I don’t think you can. There is a tremendous amount of hate on every side, clergy is not exempted from that hate, no one’s clergy.

I’ve said before, I am a lapsed Catholic, not a perfect Christian, not a righteous person by any description. I’m stating what is my opinion at this moment in time. I try to choose my words carefully, I don’t always succeed. If that offends you, I’m sorry.

All I’m looking for is the truth as it actually is. Everyone’s version of the truth in this matter, can only stem from one place. The original truth, the Latin Bible. This is a discussion mainly meant to be between people who follow any version of the Bible, or are interested in learning, you can’t discuss it properly as it was intended unless you use some version of the Bible for argument. It’s pretty much between Christian’s. All are welcome to listen learn and ask questions. Believers or not. This as I said is an attempt to get at truth, not different versions of it. You consider this throwing stones, I don’t. It’s an opinion, or is it your position I don’t deserve to have one.

I’m a getting a bit tired of explaining what my intentions are, I thought it was obvious but, what do I know, right?

originally posted by: randomuser2034

originally posted by: KKLOCO
a reply to: randomuser2034

Hey RU,

First off, I think I’ve made it clear that I like you as a person. I think you and I could go back and forth about the JW’s for literally YEARS. However, I don’t want to do that, nor do I have the time.

What I would like to hear from you is a response about the origins of the JW Religion. You always seem to deflect discussion about this. There is no question that Charles T. Russel was a Freemason. There is also no question that he came up with the 1914 date, from measurements inside the Great Pyramid at Giza. What are the JW’s takes on these facts now? I couldn’t get an answer back in 2001 when I asked the elders in and around my congregation. Which helped me make my decision to leave.

Hey KKLOCO. I read your comment yesterday and remembered I had answered you awhile ago about that. And took some time and found the replies about Russell and Freemasonry:

Reply 1

Reply 2

And I replied to your post with irrefutable evidence. Charles’ way of showing the world just where his allegiance is, at his death. Complete with the pyramid, Crown and Cross, on Masonic grounds. How do you refute this? In fact, the Jdubs have done a great job of trying to erase this history. Google searches 20 years ago yielded FAR more results. If memory serves, they even removed the pyramid with the crown and cross in the last decade.

BTW, you never addressed my question about Charles coming up with the 1914 date, based on measurements of the GP at Giza.

originally posted by: KKLOCO

originally posted by: randomuser2034

originally posted by: KKLOCO
a reply to: randomuser2034

Hey RU,

First off, I think I’ve made it clear that I like you as a person. I think you and I could go back and forth about the JW’s for literally YEARS. However, I don’t want to do that, nor do I have the time.

What I would like to hear from you is a response about the origins of the JW Religion. You always seem to deflect discussion about this. There is no question that Charles T. Russel was a Freemason. There is also no question that he came up with the 1914 date, from measurements inside the Great Pyramid at Giza. What are the JW’s takes on these facts now? I couldn’t get an answer back in 2001 when I asked the elders in and around my congregation. Which helped me make my decision to leave.

Hey KKLOCO. I read your comment yesterday and remembered I had answered you awhile ago about that. And took some time and found the replies about Russell and Freemasonry:

Reply 1

Reply 2

And I replied to your post with irrefutable evidence. Charles’ way of showing the world just where his allegiance is, at his death. Complete with the pyramid, Crown and Cross, on Masonic grounds. How do you refute this? In fact, the Jdubs have done a great job of trying to erase this history. Google searches 20 years ago yielded FAR more results. If memory serves, they even removed the pyramid with the crown and cross in the last decade.

BTW, you never addressed my question about Charles coming up with the 1914 date, based on measurements of the GP at Giza.

You said I never answered you. And the information I gave you was correct. You are 100% wrong about Russell being a Freemason. And that lie seems to be a major stumbling block for you.

Many lies and slanders have been made against the organization over the years, and they chose not to respond to many of them. Just as Jesus chose not to respond to many of the lies and smears made about him. Choosing to prove by their works the truth is in them. And their works do show they have the holy spirit operative among them.

Go to JW.ORG and find one single thing that is related to anything Freemasonic. And there you are shown where the JWs understand from Bible prophecy not the pyramids that 1914 was the date the end started. Russell explained it himself in his works. And it has to do in a prophecy of Daniel 7.

Actually I have a thread I authored about it here: Pieces of a Divine Puzzle Come Together - A Timeline Decoded.

KKLOCO, it was actually in the book Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World printed in 1877 that Russell explained the importance of the year 1914. on pages 83 and 189 it showed that the "appointed times of the nations" was a period of 2,520 years counting from 607 B. C. E. And would end in A. D. 1914.

Here I actually got the original pages where the information is found:





If you could only have done more study to anchor your faith Satan would not have been able to take it out from under you with lies so easy. Let them go. Turn to believing the truth again.

a reply to: KKLOCO

KKLOCO there were things that Jesus followers didn't quite understand when he was on earth. For example they did not understand he was to return to heaven and wait at God's right hand until he had put his enemies as a stool for his feet before he would begin reigning in kingdom power from heaven, not on earth on a throne in Jerusalem. But just because things didn't turn out the way they imagined doesn't mean they were not being used by God.

Many of Jesus' followers stopped following him when they were stumbled by words they did not understand:

"So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink."-John 6:53-55.

When Jesus explained that unless they ate of his flesh and drank of his blood they would not have everlasting life, taking offense at this MANY followers of Jesus stopped following him:

"Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him."-John 6:66.

Jesus wanting to know if his apostles too would stop following him because they were stumbled over what he said asked them:

"So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.”-John 6:67-69.

But they were faithful. Even though Jesus did tell one of them they were a slanderer. The other 11 were loyal to Jesus, even if they didn't full comprehend his words, they knew he had the truth. Later on he let them into the New Covenant (excpet for Judas the tratiro) and showed them that the bread signified his flesh, and the wine signified his blood. So it was a symbolic meaning. But he didn't reveal that to them right away.

Why?

Have you ever thought it was to test their loyalty and their true intentions?

You see God and Jesus Christ do not have to explain themselves to anyone. Although they do revel things to their servants when the time is right.

But even when the apostles were asking Jesus if he was going to restore the kingdom to Jerusalem at that time after his resurrection there on earth, Jesus did not give them an answer he in fact told them in a round about way that it was none of their business:

"So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction."-Acts 1:6-7.

a reply to: randomuser2034

Excellent, I’m happy to answer you point for point.

Two things I must address first. Will you grant me the courtesy of an answer to my question farther up in my post where I put the actual words of both you and I and asked why you twisted my words into your own narrative to show that I hated all JW?

The second, and this is just a request, is that I would prefer that you address me directly, rather than try to talk to me sideways. Up to you. How else can we have a conversation?

Ok, here I go. I have no aversion to Gods personal name, I use it daily. The divinely inspired Latin Bible that defines what a Christian is, says that name is Jesus Christ. All Christians believe that without exceptions. The Jewish tradition stops at the beginning of the New Testament. The Torah, and the other books of that faith if added to the Bible would create a book that would take two people to carry around. The Bible carries that same weight, but in a smaller package. The Old Testament is about Jehovah, and the messiah to come. The Bible is about that messiah, Jesus Christ. Apples and oranges.

Next, no emphatically! The Catholic Church does not forbid anyone from using the name Jehovah. I’ve heard it many times in sermons. We like to call him, God The Father Almighty Creator of heaven and earth. Jesus Christ, or the Holy Ghost. No one ever said you can’t say Jehovah, that’s plain ridiculous and false. And laughably the word Hallelujah. As a JW you may have never been in a Catholic Church around Christmas time. You would hear that word both in song and sermon extensively.

And the best for last. The post may have made it to the top, haven’t looked, and I don’t really care overly much.
Yes, it says Jehovah, want me to say it again? Jehovah. And it makes me very happy to have put it there. It is the name of God given in the Jewish texts. Which I believe to be true accounts and have no problem with. They are still waiting for their messiah, I found mine. The reason that it made it to the top on ATS, is because there is quite a bit of interest in this exact subject. I like to think that we all search for truth, that’s what ATS is all about. That’s why I hope it stays viable.

Doing Gods work without knowing it? I can only hope so, and take that as the biggest compliment you could possibly give me. Maybe bigger than I have ever received in my life. Thank you. How can you say I’m hiding anything? When I try to answer every question in detail?

Consider this with the intelligence that I know God has given you. Who’s hiding something? Me or you? Answer MY questions now, please. There are far more people here listening to our conversation than either one of us know.

If you think this is something, wait for my next op on the Catholic Church. You are going to absolutely love that one.

Too late for me to edit,

I just wanted to add, The name Jehovah appears 7 times in the King James Version, 7000 times in the Jewish traditional Old Testament. If Christians are forbidden to use the name, then why is it in our Bible?????

There are 36 hallelujahs in Handles, The Messiah. I know because I just counted them. Christians love that composition. Every Christian church has played it I’m sure multiple times in their history, it’s beautiful. The best part is the lyrics. Read them in English. Really inspiring, and you wouldn’t be disappointed. Heard mainly at Easter and Christmas.

Now that I think about it, I’m not sure they used it much in sermons. Unless it was on the subject of The Old Testament. Very much said in Bible studies if I remember correctly. There is no New Testament, without the Old Testament. We don’t deny it, we teach it.
a reply to: Topcraft