The Truth about the Jehovah Witness

originally posted by: Topcraft
a reply to: randomuser2034

You refuse to answer when you are asked direct pertinent, and I might add, simple questions. Why? Sorry, that would be a question wouldn’t it. I’m beginning to believe that you are afraid to answer because you have no answers, that, or your handlers won’t allow you to. Please prove me wrong.

Good morning Topcraft. I hope you are doing well today.

You are an older person than I am, I deduct you are probably in your 70's although you may be a little older or younger, because of things you have said in the past. Because of this I automatically give you respect. I would not respond to you or talk to you the way I would someone my own age. You deserve to be treated with deference by younger people such as myself. I also don't always have a lot of time, not nearly as much as I did back during the pandemic, that is sure. Also I know that it takes time to digest information.

"Do not severely criticize an older man. On the contrary, appeal to him as a father."-1 Timothy 5:1.

Some people, and whereislogic does this, and I hope he doesn't mind me calling him out on this, turn on the fire hose of Bible truth when we really should be using a refreshing sprinkler system that slowly gives refreshing water that nourishes with life. Also I tend to avoid where I perceive a person is not willing to change their mind on a subject. I prefer to look for things we have in common, and also for opportunities to show I really care about the person.

I realize that actions are much stronger than words. Paul stated:

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all."-1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

So if I had all the knowledge, and spoke in the tongues of angels and men, and gifts of prophecy, and could discern all the sacred secrets and prophecy, and all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, then none of it is of any benefit.

And I often remain silent when I am abused, bullied, or name-called, and it does happen quite frequently on this website by people who claim to believe in Jesus.

Topcraft, do you ever pray for me? I pray for you, in fact I prayed for you before I decided to reply to you. I am not saying this to brag but to try and open your eyes. And I want you to know that I respect your beliefs deeply, as I do respect all those of the Catholic faith. And I do see that you have a zeal for God which endears me to you. Because God is worthy of our honor and respect, and our reverential worship.

Perhaps I will leave you with this thought. Many people read the Bible. But not all understand what it says or have God's good spirit, and that is quite evident in their behavior, their bickering, their fighting. Where the spirit of God resides there is peace and patience and kindness and love. There is purity of heart and unity of thought and action.

When Jesus sent out his followers to preach from house to house he sent his peace and God's good spirit with them. And they were to wish peace on the household or the town they went into to seek out deserving ones. If the household accepted the peace then God's peace would reside with them. And the only way to discern Bible truth when reading God's word is with holy spirit. God is a God of peace not of disorder:

"For God is a God not of disorder but of peace."-1 Corinthians 14:33.

Did you notice it does not say he is a God of order but of "peace." Peace goes beyond order. A military unit can be orderly but can be very violent. That is not God's way of doing things at all!

But he has sent out his anointed chosen ones into all the earth to preach and teach the good news of God's kingdom. And they go under direction of the holy spirit and the angels, with Jesus Christ from heaven directing this life-saving work. Many millions have joined with the anointed and are helping them proclaim the good new of God's kingdom in all the earth, these also receive God's good spirit on them. And as people listen God's scrutinizes the heart. And where the person is receptive of Bible truth the holy spirit Jehovah's Witnesses carry with them then may rest upon the person or the household that accepts that peace, and then their minds can be opened to receive and understand spiritual truth.

To perceive these things clearly is ONLY done by God's will, thus it is a miracle. He allows a spirit of deception and darkness to pervade on the majority of mankind. Although many claim to see they are blind. And you don't know how wonderful it is to see God's spirit operative in a person as their mind's eye is opened to spiritual light and truth. It is the most joyful feeling to witness.


"But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him. He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”-John 6:64-65.

Jehovah God is selective in whom he draws to himself and his organization. If he opens your eyes to this wonderful truth then you are indeed truly blessed!

"He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did."-Matthew 16:15-17.

Many initially started to follow Jesus but were later stumbled by the things he said because they did not understand them. But Jesus called Peter happy because he was able to discern who Jesus was because Jehovah, Jesus' Father in heaven, revealed it to him. The point? We need God's holy spirit operative upon us, and it is God who shines his light on the receptive heart he decides to.

"In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not observe my words. The word that you are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me."-John 14:23-24.

If we love Jesus we will observe his word. And that in turn will result in the love of Jehovah God, Jesus' Father upon us. And then Jesus Christ and Jehovah God will dwell with us. We will have their holy spirit operative in our lives. And that will become clearly manifest to all around. For all that Jesus spoke did not originate with himself. But he only did the things that his Father sent him out to do.

a reply to: randomuser2034

Too little, too late. Testify, preach, or share your belief with someone else, my work here is done.

I gave you every chance, but you are only interested in a one sided conversation with no other input. The wall of Scripture that you and your friends try to erect, only tends to hurt you. Using The Word Of God, you mix half truths and half lies, along with total lie’s to clump them together and call it the Truth. It’s here in print for all to see, and it’s very obvious to all that read your words.

Had you come to me with the actual TRUTH, instead of what you presented, I would come down to the Kingdom Hall, apologize profusely to the congregation, recite the name of Jehovah God 7,000 times, sing the Hallelujah Chorus then convert. I say this seriously. You can’t lie to me, then tell me to trust you.

You JW are not very good at this whole “Bible thing”. Maybe you should try the Koran, they have this monotheistic God you can get behind, and a real cool prophet. You are far closer in belief to them than to Christianity.

Don’t address me again, I really don’t want to talk to you. You are absolutely welcome to talk about me however, as I’m sure you will. For the last time, I wish you well…… BYE

a reply to: Topcraft

Never have I lied to you. All I have stated has always been based on scripture and true. Do I get things wrong and make assumptions sometimes? Yes, if I did say something that was out of line or assume something that was wrong I apologize. We all do that.

Part of assimilating God's word is being hurt. You have to be cut to the heart in order to repent. So unfortunately the truth will sting sometimes no matter how sugar-coated we may want to make it. And that is why only a humble person is drawn to Jehovah.

Here is something you may not know about me. I always go into conversations with the understanding the other person is greeater than me. So being in a lower position if the person berates me, yells, whatever, I tolerate it, realizing that I am nothing to begin with. That really helps me to keep my calm in situations.

Jesus actually told us to behave this way:

“Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens. Therefore, whoever will humble himself like this young child is the one who is the greatest in the Kingdom of the heavens; and whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me also."-Matthew 18:3-5.

And we are also admonished:

"Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you,  as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others."-Philippians 2:3-4.

Humility will help you take the word of God as it actually is. And it leads to greatness:

"The fear of Jehovah is a training in wisdom,
And before glory there is humility."
-Proverbs 15:33.

Some mistake my faith in God's word as being arrogant or obtuse. But it is simply understanding God's word is truth. A few days ago when dealing with another individual on this website, who is quite condescending and a scoffer, when showing that person with proofs from scripture who really has the Christian faith, could not counteract or argue anything presented in a spirit of mildness and conviction. I was just insulted, scoffed at and name-called.

Here is an idea I think it will help. Think about this. Remember we read that God only draws those whom he wishes to himself. Jesus likened our heart as to that of soil. And he said some had barren soil, some had rocky soil, but some had good soil. So that when kingdom seed is dropped on the soil it can be snuffed out, starved, neglected. But some soil is rich and the kingdom seed grows in it and is fruitful.

What type of heart do you want? You can prepare your heart to accept the word of God. Prepare your heart before your God. Cultivate it, ask for help in prayer to our loving heavenly Father Jehovah who gives richly to all asking him of wisdom and holy spirit. I have no doubt if you are sincere and earnest you will have success. And let go of your bitterness. Replace it with the fruitage of God's spirit filled with all sorts of good fruit and love and goodness and kindness and peace and joy!

“Now listen to the illustration of the man who sowed. Where anyone hears the word of the Kingdom but does not get the sense of it, the wicked one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart; this is the one sown alongside the road. As for the one sown on rocky ground, this is the one hearing the word and at once accepting it with joy. Yet, he has no root in himself but continues for a time, and after tribulation or persecution has arisen on account of the word, he is at once stumbled. As for the one sown among the thorns, this is the one hearing the word, but the anxiety of this system of things and the deceptive power of riches choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. As for the one sown upon the fine soil, this is the one hearing the word and getting the sense of it, who really does bear fruit and produces, this one 100 times more, that one 60, the other 30.”-Matthew 13:18-23.

The meaning? Prepare your heart to accept the word of God. Don't let anything snuff it out. Prior prejudices, anxieties of life, family opposition, other priorities. God is discerning the heart, and if he sees your earnest efforts he will reward them. Any effort to please him makes him rejoice!

"Ezʹra had prepared his heart to consult the Law of Jehovah and to practice it, and to teach its regulations and judgments in Israel."-Ezra 7:10.

Hey old man, don't lose heart, or feel offended. Jehovah is watching you. And he cares about you with a great love:

"I will give you insight and instruct you in the way you should go.
I will give you advice with my eye upon you."
-Psalm 32:8.

"‘For I well know the thoughts that I am thinking toward you,’ declares Jehovah, ‘thoughts of peace, and not of calamity, to give you a future and a hope. And you will call me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you.’"-Jeremiah 29:11-12.

"The wounds inflicted by a friend are faithful,
But an enemy’s kisses are plentiful."
-Proverbs 27:6.

The Search

This video has always held a precious place in my heart of how this humble woman lost in the killing fields of Cambodia prayed to the "true God" when she was lost and running with her family for her life. And how Jehovah found her:

Soten Yoeun: My Search for the True God

a reply to: cslewis

Welcome!

a reply to: Topcraft
thank you!

a reply to: nugget1

I have to apologize for not responding to you earlier, I got bypassed and missed your post. I agree with what you’re saying. We need to shine some light into the very dark areas of our existence, whether it’s religion, politics or anything else that seems to have those dark corners. Sometimes when you flip that switch, everything is hunky dory. Sometimes it’s not. If you don’t look, you will never know.

Communicating what you know to someone else is always difficult. Especially hard in a case.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Topcraft

...
Some go agnostic or atheist; but most retain faith in God and Jesus and that at its core is Christianity.

James 2:17-20

17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?

The following commandment from Jesus (when obeyed by works or behaviour that is in accordance with it) is what defines, "at its core", Christianity. John 13:34,35:

I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

So what is this type of love, how is it demonstrated? 1 Corinthians 13:1-7 elaborates (in particular verses 4-7):

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.* [Or “I am useless.”] 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I do not benefit at all.

4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

It's not as easy as it looks. Certainly not when people are "being molded by this system of things" (Rom 12:2) and its god (2 Cor 4:4), "the ruler of this world" (John 12:31) "who is misleading the entire inhabited earth" (Rev 12:9). I find not rejoicing over unrighteousness but rejoicing with the truth instead to be one of the easier ones. But the others are just as important.

originally posted by: Topcraft
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

The first century followers that believed his message, were actually mostly what are called Messianic Jews, not Christians.

The earliest record of the terms “Messianic Jew,” and “Messianic Judaism” being used for Jewish believers in Yeshua was in a publication called Our Hope, published by Dr. A.C. Gabelein in March 1895. ... The term Messianic Judaism is of relatively recent vintage.

Source: The forgotten history of Messianic Judaism | City Church in Tallinn

The term was not used in the 1st century, neither by Jewish* Christians or others (*: Jews by race and birth, not religious Jews, i.e. not adherents of Judaism). Some time after Jesus' death, the followers of Jesus Christ were all called Christians, regardless of their genetic heritage, race or former religions.

Christian (Insight on the Scriptures)

The Latinized Greek term Khri·sti·a·nosʹ, found only three times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, designates followers of Christ Jesus, the exponents of Christianity.​—Ac 11:26; 26:28; 1Pe 4:16.

“It was first in Antioch [Syria] that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.” (Ac 11:26) It is possible, then, that this name was used as early as the year 44 C.E. when the events surrounding this text occurred, although the grammatical structure of this phrase does not necessarily make it so; some think it was a little later. At any rate, by about 58 C.E., in the city of Caesarea, the term was well known and used even by public officials, for at that time King Herod Agrippa II said to Paul: “In a short time you would persuade me to become a Christian.”​—Ac 26:28.

Bible writers in addressing fellow believers or describing followers of Christ used expressions such as “believers in the Lord,” “brothers” and “disciples” (Ac 5:14; 6:3; 15:10), “chosen ones” and “faithful ones” (Col 3:12; 1Ti 4:12), “slaves to God” and “slaves of Christ Jesus” (Ro 6:22; Php 1:1), “holy ones,” “congregation of God,” and “those who call upon the Lord.” (Ac 9:13; 20:28; 1Co 1:2; 2Ti 2:22) These terms with doctrinal meaning were used primarily as internal congregational designations. To outsiders Christianity was referred to as “The Way” (Ac 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4), and opponents called it “the sect of the Nazarenes” or just “this sect.”​—Ac 24:5; 28:22.

It was first in Syrian Antioch that Christ’s followers became known as Christians. It is most unlikely that the Jews first styled Jesus’ followers “Christians” (Greek) or “Messianists” (Hebrew), for they would not reject Jesus as being the Messiah, or Christ, and then tacitly recognize him as the Anointed One, or Christ, by stamping his followers “Christians.” ...

So it would be equally unlikely that the Jews would call them "Messianic Jews" (at that time). But as already shown earlier, that's a much later term that someone invented at the end of the 19th century (if that source is accurate about it, I had some trouble googling for: "messianic jews" etymology; apparently if you want to know the history of a word, it's easier to google just one word followed by the term "etymology", which concerns the history of the word and when it was first used; 2 words doesn't seem to work, I didn't get any quick results from online etymology dictionaries).

Coming back to the part that says:

To outsiders Christianity was referred to as “The Way” (Ac 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4), and opponents called it “the sect of the Nazarenes” or just “this sect.”​—Ac 24:5; 28:22.

Sect is a synonym for "cult".

originally posted by: nugget1
a reply to: Topcraft

The JW is a cult;

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Topcraft

Sound about right as to what I've heard about the cult.

Ecclesiastes 1:9

What has been is what will be,

And what has been done will be done again;

There is nothing new under the sun.

originally posted by: Topcraft
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

... As I have said before, Christians believe what’s in the Latin Bible. Christians believe in the Trinity. That Christ is God. If that’s what you believe you are a Christian.

If that definition for what it means to be a Christian were really true, then supposedly there were no 1st century Christians. As The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits itself (since Roman Catholicism gave birth to the doctrine of the Trinity): “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

Also, with "the Latin Bible" I'm assuming you are referring (primarily) to Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Jerome translated the Bible into Latin between 383 and 404 C.E. There were Christians long before what you call "the Latin Bible". Regarding your definition for "Christian" you say: "That was defined 2,000 Years ago by The Latin Bible." So if you're (primarily) referring to Jerome's Vulgate, that hasn't been 2,000 years yet since that's been around. So how could what you described been "defined 2,000 Years ago by The Latin Bible"? Especially since Jerome's Vulgate doesn't even define it the way you defined it in the first place. It translates John 13:34,45 and 2 Cor 10:3-5 which tells a person the basics of what they need to know about being a Christian. Summed up as 'love for one another' (John 13:34,35), and in obedience to that commandment a Christian cannot do military service, just as Paul described Christians as not doing military service at 2 Cor 10:3-5 (see earlier quotation, the footnote with the literal translation). Those are the basics of being a Christian and the proof of discipleship (as Jesus indicated at John 13:35).*

You will likewise have a hard time finding a single 1st century Christian expressing their belief that Jesus Christ is Jehovah God. Maybe you can have a shot at the 2nd century (I think it'll still be hard, and by expressing such a belief they are demonstrating that they are not Christian, but those described by Paul at 2 Cor 11:13 as "false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ", but besides that) but that teaching only became official Church doctrine after this council in 325 C.E.:

Trinity Doctrine, A False Teaching Of Man, Council of Nicaea

*: a little more of the basics:

What It Means to Be a Christian. Jesus extended the invitation to be his follower, saying: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and continually follow me.” (Mt 16:24) Those who are true Christians have full faith that Jesus Christ is God’s specially Anointed One and only-begotten Son, the Promised Seed who sacrificed his human life as a ransom, was resurrected and exalted to the right hand of Jehovah, and received authority to subdue his enemies and vindicate Jehovah’s sovereignty. (Mt 20:28; Lu 24:46; Joh 3:16; Ga 3:16; Php 2:9-11; Heb 10:12, 13) Christians view the Bible as the inspired Word of God, absolute truth, beneficial for teaching and disciplining mankind.​—Joh 17:17; 2Ti 3:16; 2Pe 1:21.

More is required of true Christians than a mere confession of faith. It is necessary that belief be demonstrated by works. (Ro 10:10; Jas 2:17, 26) Born as sinners, those who become Christians repent, turn around, dedicate their lives to Jehovah, to worship and serve him, and then submit to water baptism. (Mt 28:19; Ac 2:38; 3:19) They must keep themselves clean from fornication, from idolatry, and from eating blood. (Ac 15:20, 29) They strip off old personalities with their fits of anger, obscene talk, lying, stealing, drunkenness, and “things like these,” and they bring their lives into accord with Bible principles. (Ga 5:19-21; 1Co 6:9-11; Eph 4:17-24; Col 3:5-10) “Let none of you,” wrote Peter to Christians, “suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a busybody in other people’s matters.” (1Pe 4:15) Christians are to be kind and considerate, mild-tempered and long-suffering, lovingly exercising self-control. (Ga 5:22, 23; Col 3:12-14) They provide and care for their own and love their neighbors as themselves. (1Ti 5:8; Ga 6:10; Mt 22:36-40; Ro 13:8-10) The main identifying quality by which true Christians are recognized is the outstanding love they have toward one another. “By this,” Jesus said, “all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”​—Joh 13:34, 35; 15:12, 13.

True Christians imitate Jesus’ example as the Great Teacher and Faithful Witness of Jehovah. (Joh 18:37; Re 1:5; 3:14) “Go . . . make disciples of people of all the nations” is their Leader’s command. (Mt 28:19, 20) In carrying it out, Christians ‘witness publicly and from house to house,’ urging people everywhere to flee out of Babylon the Great and put their hope and confidence in God’s Kingdom. (Ac 5:42; 20:20, 21; Re 18:2-4) This is really good news, but proclaiming such a message brings upon Christians great persecution and suffering, even as was experienced by Jesus Christ. His followers are not above him; it is enough if they are like him. (Mt 10:24, 25; 16:21; 24:9; Joh 15:20; 2Ti 3:12; 1Pe 2:21) If one “suffers as a Christian, let him not feel shame, but let him keep on glorifying God in this name,” counseled Peter. (1Pe 4:16) Christians render to “Caesar” what belongs to the superior authorities of this world​—honor, respect, tax—​but at the same time they remain separate from this world’s affairs (Mt 22:21; Joh 17:16; Ro 13:1-7), and for this the world hates them.​—Joh 15:19; 18:36; 1Pe 4:3, 4; Jas 4:4; 1Jo 2:15-17.

It is understandable why people with such high principles of morality and integrity, accompanied by an electrifying message delivered with fiery zeal and outspokenness, quickly gained attention in the first century. Paul’s missionary travels, for example, were like a spreading prairie fire that set city after city ablaze​—Antioch in Pisidia, Iconium, Lystra, Derbe, and Perga on one trip; Philippi, Thessalonica, Beroea, Athens, and Corinth on another​—causing people to stop, think, and take their stand, either accepting or rejecting the good news of God’s Kingdom. (Ac 13:14–14:26; 16:11–18:17) Many thousands abandoned their false religious organizations, wholeheartedly embraced Christianity, and zealously took up the preaching activity in imitation of Christ Jesus and the apostles. This, in turn, made them objects of hatred and persecution, which was instigated chiefly by the false religious leaders and misinformed political rulers. Their leader Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, had been put to death on the charge of sedition; now peace-loving Christians were accused of “disturbing our city,” ‘overturning the inhabited earth,’ and being a people ‘that everywhere is spoken against.’ (Ac 16:20; 17:6; 28:22) By the time Peter wrote his first letter (c. 62-64 C.E.) it seems that the activity of Christians was well known in places such as “Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.”​—1Pe 1:1.

Non-Christian Testimony. ...

...

First-century Christianity had no temples, built no altars, used no crucifixes, and sponsored no garbed and betitled ecclesiastics. Early Christians celebrated no state holidays and refused all military service. “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [who ruled 161-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”​—The Rise of Christianity, by E. Barnes, 1947, p. 333.

Nevertheless, as indicated in Pliny’s letter, not all who bore the name Christian were uncompromisingly such when put to the test. Just as had been foretold, the spirit of apostasy was already at work before the apostles fell asleep. (Ac 20:29, 30; 2Pe 2:1-3; 1Jo 2:18, 19, 22) Within a period of less than 300 years, the wheat field of Christianity had been overrun with the weeds of apostate antichrists to the point where wicked Constantine the Great (himself incriminated in the murder of no less than seven close friends and relatives) figured in events that led to the development of a state religion disguised as “Christianity.”

originally posted by: Topcraft
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

... Unless…………., you change the Bible to suit your narrative. I can’t stress that enough. They can squeak all they want, Pastor Russell and his friends manipulated the accepted Bible, till it said exactly what they wanted it to say, not what was intended. As to their motive, only they could tell you. I can only speculate.

I only hear one side 'squeaking' (to use your terminology, I would not phrase it that way, preferring to use more respectful language) accusations that have already been proven to be false by the facts and evidence I have collected concerning these accusations. Facts and evidence you apparently "will not put up with" (2 Tim 4:3,4) when shared with you, or "cannot listen to* [or "accept"]" (John 8:43) for the reasons explained by Jesus at John 8:44-47 and Matthew 13:13-15.

Instead, you prefer rumors (for example, per your own admission that it was a rumor concerning Charles Russell being a 32nd degree Freemason, but other rumors as well*), proven false slanderous accusations and "false stories" that 'tickle your ears' (2 Tim 4:3,4), proven lies and apparently speculation as well. Also, Charles Russell died (1916) decades before the first edition of the NWT came out (completed in 1960). The least you can do is try to make your slanderous accusations sound a bit more logical and persuasive. And not just throw them out there, one after the other, as if 'tickling people's ears' with "false stories" is all you intend to do. Just because it works on those who desire to have their ears tickled with such dirt.

“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.” (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

*: Even though, as mentioned in my first commentary debunking that rumor:

Many years ago, Jehovah God told the Israelites: “You shall not spread a baseless rumour.” (Exodus 23:1, The New English Bible) There was good reason for that command. Such rumors have bad results. They make the one spreading them a liar, something Jehovah hates. (Proverbs 6:16-19) They affect the reputation of the subject of the rumor. And they deceive the person who listens to the rumor, perhaps inciting him to act unwisely. (Numbers 13:32–14:4) It is most unloving thus to deceive our friends. It goes against God’s command: “You must not deceive, and you must not deal falsely with one another. ”​—Leviticus 19:11; Proverbs 14:25.

Not that you seem to care.

Matthew 13:13-15

That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it. 14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’

“Therefore, now that you have put away deceit, each one of you speak truth with his neighbor, because we are members belonging to one another. . . . Let a rotten word not come out of your mouth, but only what is good for building up as the need may be, to impart what is beneficial to the hearers. . . .
Put away from yourselves every kind of malicious bitterness, anger, wrath, screaming, and abusive speech, as well as everything injurious. But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you.” (Eph 4:25,29,31,32)

All things a person must do (works) if they wish to be a Christian. Defining characteristics related to the overarching "love" described at John 13:34,35 and in what has become known as the Golden Rule (Mt 7:12). Since I do not get the impression you are interested or willing to do those things, including what's described at 1 Peter 3:15, these teachings from God's Word (i.e. from God himself, not me or my personal opinions), I'm sharing (or relaying) for everyone else who is willing to 'listen to the sayings of God.' (John 8:47)

1 Peter 3:15

But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.

John 8:42-47

Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to* [Or “accept.”] my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? 47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”

Gossip is idle personal talk; groundless rumor. Slander is defamation, generally malicious, whether oral or written.

“Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks,” said Jesus Christ. (Mt 12:34) Consequently, what one usually talks about is an index of that on which his heart is set. The Scriptures urge us to safeguard the heart and to think on and speak of the things that are true, serious, righteous, chaste, lovable, well spoken of, virtuous, and praiseworthy. (Pr 4:23; Php 4:8) Jesus Christ said, “It is what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles a man,” and he went on to name “wicked reasonings” and “false testimonies” among the things that proceed from the mouth but actually are out of the heart.​—Mt 15:11, 19.

Gossip is talk that reveals something about the doings and the affairs of other persons. It may be unfounded rumor, even a lie, and although the gossiper may not know the untruthfulness of the rumor, he spreads it nevertheless, thereby making himself responsible for propagating a lie. It may be someone’s faults and mistakes that the gossiper is talking about. But even if the things said are true, the gossiper is in the wrong and reveals lack of love. The proverb says: “The one covering over transgression is seeking love, and he that keeps talking about a matter is separating those familiar with one another.”​—Pr 17:9.

While gossip can in some cases be more or less harmless (though it can become slander or lead into it), slander is always damaging and always causes hurt and contention. It may be with or without malicious motive. In either case, the slanderer is putting himself in a bad position before God, for “sending forth contentions among brothers” is among the things that God hates. (Pr 6:16-19) The Greek word for “slanderer” or “accuser” is di·aʹbo·los. The word is also used in the Bible as a title of Satan “the Devil,” the great slanderer of God. (Joh 8:44; Re 12:9, 10; Ge 3:2-5) This indicates the source of such defamatory accusation. Slander constitutes a stumbling block to others, particularly to the one slandered. The law given by God to Israel commanded: “You must not go around among your people for the sake of slandering. You must not stand up against your fellow’s blood.” (Le 19:16) The slanderer gets pleasure in revealing things that cause sensation. The one listening to slander is also wrong and is damaging himself. (Pr 20:19; 26:22) A person may be turned away from his friends because of some defamatory remark about them made by a slanderer, and enmities and divisions may develop.​—Pr 16:28. The Scriptures foretell that the notable presence of slanderers would be one of the marks of “the last days.” (2Ti 3:1-3) Slander, in causing contention (Pr 16:28), thus produces certain “works of the flesh” (such as hatreds, contentions, and divisions) that will prevent the slanderer and others he leads into wrongdoing from inheriting God’s Kingdom. (Ga 5:19-21)

To follow-up on my previous comment, I linked this article before:

Have Jehovah’s Witnesses Changed the Bible to Fit Their Beliefs?

No, we haven’t. On the contrary, when we have discovered that our beliefs were not completely in line with the Bible, we have changed our beliefs.

Long before we started producing the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures in 1950, we examined the Bible. We used whatever translation was available and formed our beliefs accordingly. Consider a few examples of long-standing beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and decide for yourself whether they match what the Bible really teaches.

1. What we believe: God is not a Trinity. The July 1882 issue of Zion’s Watch Tower said: “Our readers are aware that while we believe in Jehovah and Jesus, and the holy Spirit, we reject as totally unscriptural, the teaching that these are three Gods in one person or, as some put it, one God in three persons.”

What the Bible says: “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.” (Deuteronomy 6:4, The Holy Bible, by Robert Young) “There is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6, American Bible Union Version) Jesus himself stated: “The Father is greater than I.”​—John 14:28, Douay-Rheims Version.

2. What we believe: There is no eternal torment in a fiery hell. Quoting from Romans 6:​23 in the King James Version, Zion’s Watch Tower entitled its issue of June 1882 “The Wages of Sin Is Death,” stating: “How clear and simple is this statement. How strange it is that so many who profess to receive the Bible as the Word of God persist in contradicting this positive statement, and affirm that they believe, and that the Bible teaches, that the wages of sin is everlasting life in torment.”

What the Bible says: “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:​4, 20, King James Version) The final punishment for those who oppose God is, not eternal torment, but “everlasting destruction.”​—2 Thessalonians 1:9, King James Version.

3. What we believe: God’s Kingdom is a real government, not just a condition of the heart. Regarding God’s Kingdom, the December 1881 issue of Zion’s Watch Tower said: “The setting up of this kingdom will, of course, involve the overthrow of all the kingdoms of earth.”

What the Bible says: “In the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”​—Daniel 2:​44, King James Version.

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses depend on the New World Translation to support their beliefs?

No, for we continue to use many translations of the Bible in our witnessing work. In fact, while we provide a copy of the New World Translation at no charge as part of our free Bible study program, we are also happy to study with those who prefer to use other translations.

Related question in the FAQ there:

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Have Their Own Bible? (Using a variety of Bible translations can enhance your study of the Bible. Three points in particular make the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures worthy to include in your studies.)

Jehovah’s Witnesses have used many different translations in their study of the Bible. In languages where it is available, though, we especially appreciate the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures for its use of God’s name, for its accuracy, and for its clarity.

Use of God’s name. Some Bible publishers have failed to give credit where credit is due. For example, one Bible translation lists the names of over 70 people who in some way contributed to its production. Yet, this same Bible omits the name of the Author​—Jehovah God​—altogether!

In contrast, the New World Translation restores the divine name in the thousands of places where it existed in the original text, while the committee that produced the translation remains anonymous.

...

That is quite the ironic contrast. And then detractors complain about them choosing to remain anonymous, inventing all sorts of "wicked suspicions" (1 Timothy 6:3-5) to accuse them of for why they made that choice. Refusing to "listen to" (or "accept"; John 8:43) their explanation why they actually made that choice (which a person can come to understand from the information above as well, if they really wanted to).

Understanding

... The person who is rightly motivated seeks understanding, not out of mere curiosity or to exalt himself, but for the very purpose of acting in wisdom; ‘wisdom is before his face.’ (Prov. 17:24) He is not like those in the apostle Paul’s day who assumed to be teachers of others but were “puffed up with pride, not understanding anything,” unwisely letting themselves become “mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words,” things that produce disunity and a host of bad results.—1 Tim. 6:3-5; see KNOWLEDGE; WISDOM.

“If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain.” (1 Timothy 6:3-5)

Thanks for the demonstration. I hope it may be of help to someone, perhaps even those participating in giving the demonstration once they start using the Bible as a mirror as described at James 1:19-26 (which I quoted in the other thread about the pope). Ah well, it may be of some use here as well:

Know this, my beloved brothers: Everyone must be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger, 20 for man’s anger does not bring about God’s righteousness. 21 Therefore, put away all filthiness and every trace of badness,* [Or possibly, “and the abundance of badness.”] and accept with mildness the implanting of the word that is able to save you.* [Or “your souls.”]

22 However, become doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his own face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is. 25 But the one who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.

26 If any man thinks he is a worshipper of God* [Or “is religious.”] but does not keep a tight rein on* [Or “does not bridle.”] his tongue, he is deceiving his own heart, and his worship is futile.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Topcraft


This is how a Christian is defined

A Christian is defined as an individual who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ and identifies with Christianity, ......Christians are part of various denominations that differ in theology, traditions, and practices, such as Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism, among others. Despite these differences, they share a common faith in Jesus Christ as central to their religion.

Jesus Christ's teachings produce only 1 specific theology ("One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all"; Eph 4:4-6), so how could all these denominations in Christendom 'follow the teachings of Jesus Christ' if they "differ in theology"?

Matthew 12:25

Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Is Christian Unity Possible? (Awake!—1991)

CHRISTENDOM is a divided house. ...

Deploring the religious disunity, a document of the Second Vatican Council stated: “All proclaim themselves to be disciples of the Lord, but their convictions clash and their paths diverge, as though Christ Himself were divided (cf. 1 Cor. 1:13). Without doubt, this discord openly contradicts the will of Christ, provides a stumbling block to the world, and inflicts damage on the most holy cause of proclaiming the good news to every creature.”

...

Telling somebody who identifies as a Christian that believes in Jesus in 2024, that they are not, is a form of human rights abuse, try that in the work place today, if you are reported to human resources, see what happens.

So is a person to hide the truth from these people instead then if that is actually the case (that they think they are Christians but actually are not), keep them in the dark? Is that love ('loving your neighbour as yourself')?

Reproof (Insight on the Scriptures)

...

Proper Attitude. Since the Scriptures are inspired of God, all reproof solidly based on them is really reproof from him. (2Ti 3:16) Jehovah’s reproof is an expression of love, not to be abhorred or rejected. (Pr 3:11, 12) As head of the Christian congregation, Jesus Christ, in affection for its members, sees to it that needed reproof is given through spiritually qualified men. (Re 3:14, 19) Wise ones appreciate that “the reproofs of discipline are the way of life.”​—Pr 6:23.

The sinful human tendency is to resent reproof and the human servant through whom it may be given. But yielding to this tendency degrades one to the level of an unreasoning beast lacking moral discrimination; as the inspired proverb expresses it: “A hater of reproof is unreasoning.” (Pr 12:1) In contrast, the psalmist David, who was himself repeatedly reproved, wrote: “Should the righteous one strike me, it would be a loving-kindness; and should he reprove me, it would be oil upon the head, which my head would not want to refuse.”​—Ps 141:5.

“‘All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline. So be zealous and repent.” (Rev 3:19)

“[Love] rejoices with the truth.” (1 Cor 13:6) Not keeping people in the dark regarding something that could help them against deception and trickery (and ending up fooling themselves in the process, 'deceiving themselves with false reasoning', James 1:22).

“So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes.” (Ephesians 4:14)

“Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;” “We have much to say about him, and it is difficult to explain, because you have become dull in your hearing. For although by now* [Lit., “in view of the time.”] you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment* [Or “their perceptive powers.”] trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” (Col 2:8; Hebrews 5:11-14)

“However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron.” (1 Timothy 4:1,2).

Coming back to denominations in Christendom differing in theology, note especially part 2 below:

Textformat:

Should You Belong to a Church?
Which Religion Should You Choose?

...

Did Paul view these differences as of little significance? Was each individual simply following his own path to salvation? Far from it! Paul admonished: “I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”​—1 Corinthians 1:10.

Of course, unity of belief cannot be achieved by coercion. It is achieved only when individuals carefully investigate matters and arrive at and accept the same conclusions. Thus, a personal study of God’s Word and an honest desire to apply what is learned are essential steps to enjoy the kind of unity that Paul spoke of. Can such unity be found? As we have seen, God has long dealt with his people as a group. Is it possible to identify that group today?

...

a reply to: whereislogic

So is a person to hide the truth from these people instead then if that is actually the case (that they think they are Christians but actually are not), keep them in the dark? Is that love ('loving your neighbor as yourself')?

Well in the workplace I just wouldn't do that in 2024, back in the 70's and before sure, it was a different time, you could be me more direct back then, and not be afraid to lose your job, but that cuts both ways for persecution of any minority group. I can tell you in 2024 if a co-worker accused me of being in cult, I would give them a chance to withdraw that statement on threat of being reported to HR, if they doubled down with the moniker, they would be reported.

The destruction of Babylon the Great and the result for it's members is for another thread discussion and is much deeper with the latest information...spontaneous faith now being available to every single Christian on the planet, regardless of denominations held.

a reply to: Topcraft

A conversation between Topcraft and his alter ego Topcraft:

Topcraft: Didn’t you tell these guys that you were done speaking with them?

Topcraft: Why yes, I believe I did.

Topcraft: Did you not say something about discouraging the use of walls of Scripture in the OP ?

Topcraft: Yes, that was upfront right from the beginning.

Topcraft: They didn’t listen to your requests did they, in fact it seems they disregarded them entirely

Topcraft: No they did not, and I thought I made myself pretty clear, maybe I didn’t

Topcraft: I thought you were pretty clear.

Topcraft: Why thank you Topcraft, that’s nice of you to say.

Topcraft: Then why are they still doing it?

Topcraft: Not really sure about that, maybe they think I left, and now they have free rein here.

Topcraft: And?

Topcraft: And they are wrong. I’m still here. As long as I’m on ATS I’ll check in.

Topcraft: Ok, what’s the reason you and I are having this particular conversation?

Topcraft: To prove a point.

Topcraft: And what is that pray tell?

Topcraft: Your pretty stupid aren’t you?

Topcraft: Well, I’ve been called that before, but I don’t think so. GET TO THE POINT!!!!

Topcraft: Ok, ok, the point I’m trying to make, is that when you have a conversation on ATS, even if you get frustrated and
feel like your talking to the wall or just talking to yourself, you are really talking to many people here who do
listen and take note. If you are trying to build that wall, in this case a very high wall of Scripture, it’s daunting and impossible to see the person on the other side.

Topcraft: I’m beginning to understand.

Topcraft: I sincerely hope so. Because this is what a conversation really looks like. I hope I have made my point.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: whereislogic

...

Well in the workplace I just wouldn't do that in 2024, back in the 70's and before sure, it was a different time, you could be me more direct back then, and not be afraid to lose your job, but that cuts both ways for persecution of any minority group. I can tell you in 2024 if a co-worker accused me of being in cult, I would give them a chance to withdraw that statement on threat of being reported to HR, if they doubled down with the moniker, they would be reported.

I guess one gets used to it after a while. In either case, if I were in a cult, and someone else realizes that based on the evidence (the facts, not slander, lies/"false stories", gossip or wicked suspicions, or illogical reasoning) and logical reasoning (reasons), I would want them not only to tell me, but also present that evidence in a logical coherent and honest fashion (using sensible arguments). As elaborate as possible, I do not mind reading long comments with lots of Bible quotations (or from articles that refer to Bible quotations, or secular sources about history, such as the history of false religion if there is any factual information in there that supports the claim or argument that I am in a cult or being deceived, brainwashed or manipulated in some way by a specific type, such as described at 1 Tim 4:1,2 or 2 Tim 4:3,4, or group of people), even repeating those quotations regularly in response to different things I have said in response demonstrating that I didn't quite understand or wanted to realize that these texts applied to me (or that I didn't want to hear it, didn't want to "put up with" it cause it didn't 'tickle my ears'). That to me shows their respect and love for me. Even when I'm not directly in the conversation (for example if I'm just reading the conversations between other people that is still relevant to my situation, such as in a thread about Jehovah's Witnesses or some other religious or biblical subject, or concerning something I believe to be true or false), in order to see if any of the Bible texts quoted apply to me so I can use the Bible as a mirror for analyzing myself and in particular what is going on in my heart (coming back to some things spoken of in the other thread about the Pope), and if we're talking about historical facts, such as those concerning false religion/Babylon the Great, I would like to be shown them in order to see if they have any bearing on my situation. So applying the Golden Rule, I know what to do if the situation is actually reversed as a result of those that are described at Isaiah 5:20,21 (and the behaviour, verse 20, and attitude, verse 21, described there, quoted before a couple of times) and 2 Timothy 4:3,4 (among other Bible texts that I have been quoting in this thread, such as 2 Cor 11:11-15).

I would not want them to hold back (facts, evidence or logical reasons or arguments that could convince me, even when I'm reluctant to hear them, being stubborn to see them for what they are: facts, evidence or logical reasons and arguments. An attitude that would not be for my own good, so I would like to see that addressed if someone notices, and addressed in that fashion, well supported by the evidence and coherent arguments that are not slanderous or not overly critical yet not actually applicable, causing more of a paintjob and discrediting effect that doesn't help me in the slightest and deceives or "overturns/harms those listening", 2 Tim 2:14).

The destruction of Babylon the Great and the result for it's members is for another thread discussion and is much deeper with the latest information...spontaneous faith now being available to every single Christian on the planet, regardless of denominations held.

I think the subject of Babylon the Great/false religion is quite relevant for a thread like this. It's actually what this thread is about, false religion, counterfeit Christianity and cults/sects claiming to be Christian religions, it's just described in the OP according to Isa 5:20, Christianity being described as false or counterfeit (and by others as a cult, just like it was done before as described at Acts 24:5 and 28:22 referred to earlier), whereas false religion and counterfeit Christianity is presented as (or implied to be) true/real Christianity.

If I were in the shoes of the OP or those who claimed Christianity is a cult (I know, they swap out "Christianity" for "JW" exactly because of what they think of true Christianity and real Christians), I would want to know about things like Isa 5:20,21, and the other Bible texts quoted to see if that might apply to me or what I believe to be true (or true Christanity), or if I was the one actually tricked by false religion or the counterfeit self-professed "Christians" described by Paul at 2 Cor 11:11-15, or the "teachers" tickling my ears with "false stories" described at 2 Tim 4:3,4, or the other "cunning" types "who speak lies" and 'are of their father the Devil' described by the other Bible texts I've been quoting in this thread (Eph, 4:4, 1 Tim 4:1,2, John 8:42-47, etc.). And to see if I am the one who 'has become dull in my hearing' (Heb 5:11) and 'my heart has grown unreceptive' (Mt 13:13-15) "to the sayings of God" (John 8:47).

Short comments without any important elaboration or presentation of evidence why these texts (or something said or painted on me or my commentary) might apply to me, would be a bit useless to me though. That would never convince me. I like videos with further explanations or elaboration as well, those are really helpful to me as long as they are not propagandistic or inaccurate, i.e. as long as they keep it honest. Lies, slander, false accusations, gossip and rumor, critical paintjobs (to discredit or for character assassination, not to actually help me improve myself or my commentary, and often more meant for others, sometimes for the painter to appear more righteous/better themselves to these others; see Matt 6:1-5) and propaganda I have no interest in (wasting time on), cause they would only be damaging to me and poison my mind (especially when I don't know any better), and wouldn't be helpful to me (or anyone else for that matter, especially the paintjobs can be quite damaging as it "overturns/harms those listening", 2 Tim 2:14).

As long as I get the impression people are honest with me concerning what they are truly thinking (also about me), I will listen. Even when I do not agree, or do not agree with their assessment of me or my commentary (at which point I may offer a counter-argument, usually accompanied by a presentation of evidence, facts/truths, including those truths taught in the Bible by God himself, the ultimate source of wisdom, knowledge, and facts/truths, or simply truth, and someone who knows me and all of you better than any human can, including I myself, or is that me myself then? I'm thinking of the expression 'know thyself'. God is better at knowing me or you than I or you myself or yourselves; 'the heart is treacherous, who can know it?').

Jeremiah 17:9,10

9 The heart is more treacherous* [Or “deceitful.”] than anything else and is desperate.* [Or possibly, “incurable.”]

Who can know it?

10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,

Examining the innermost thoughts,* [Or “deepest emotions.” Lit., “kidneys.”]

To give to each one according to his ways,

According to the fruitage of his works.

originally posted by: whereislogic

...

As long as I get the impression people are honest with me concerning what they are truly thinking (also about me), I will listen. Even when I do not agree, or do not agree with their assessment of me or my commentary (at which point I may offer a counter-argument, usually accompanied by a presentation of evidence, facts/truths, including those truths taught in the Bible by God himself, the ultimate source of wisdom, knowledge, and facts/truths, or simply truth, and someone who knows me and all of you better than any human can, including I myself, or is that me myself then? I'm thinking of the expression 'know thyself'. God is better at knowing me or you than I or you myself or yourselves; 'the heart is treacherous, who can know it?').

Or the shorter version: you can't go wrong with honesty (with me, but I guess in general as well, as recommended by God in his Word, the Bible).

Even when it means comments may end up a little longer or more numerous, or repetitive. Historical facts/truths don't change anyway. Behaviours and attitudes can change, but often they do not, especially those patterns of behaviours (such as described at 2 Tim 4:3,4 and Isa 5:20) and attitudes (Isa 5:21, Heb 5:11, Matthew 13:13-15, John 8:42-47) that are widespread and popular in this system of things as a result of those "molded by this system of things" and its ruler and god "who is misleading the entire inhabited earth" (Rom 12:2; John 12:31; 2 Cor 4:4; Rev 12:9). According to specific modi operandi (1 Tim 4:1,2; Eph 4:4; 2 Pet 2:1-3). Then pointing these out, can become a bit repetitive.

whereislogic, you could special pioneer with the time you spend spewing your version of God here.

How many hours have you accrued on this particular thread?

Are you a Pioneer?