Bibi’s Dilemma

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: jofafot

you and your ilk

As opposed to what?
By the way nice conversation, next time try to use your intellect to have an intellectual discussion instead of making up generalizations based on your imagination.

I provided a source and all you did was attack it and not recognize the numbers.

THEN you brought up jew terrorism.

And now you get all pissy about nice #ing conversations?

Gurl, please!

I pointed out a lot of missing data. And then said writer(s) are probably biased and not objective and gave you my reasoning behind it.

Also, excuse me for my skepticism, I should've probably believed it at face value and instantly because... I wonder whatever reason you believe.

originally posted by: Lazy88
a reply to: jofafot

Hitler's war against Jews continues in 'Palestine'

m.jpost.com...

But the Palestinian Arabs’ greatest triumph is their success in concealing their role in the Holocaust.

m.jpost.com...

Husseini was behind the anti-Jewish riots in 1920-21 and the Hebron massacre a few years later. He believed it was a religious impossibility for Muslims to share the land with Jews. Even areas where Jews formed a majority were considered to be a defilement. In 1929, Husseini distributed pamphlets saying: “O Arabs, do not forget that the Jew is your worst enemy and has been the enemy of your forefathers.” He also announced that the Jews had “violated the honour of Islam.” This led to a pogrom in Jerusalem and a massacre in Hebron, where 60 Jews were killed and the town ethnically cleansed. The British attributed the attacks to “racial animosity on the part of the Arabs.”

Seems Israel has moved on with their constitution with freedom of religion and speech.

It seems Palestinians still look back in history with hopes of cleaning the world of Jews like when they worked with Nazis.

Why are you constantly replying to me even though your posts have nothing to do with my messages? This is not the first time you are doing this.

Also can you please quote my post(s) where I said anything about the connection of hitler and some "Palestinian Arabs"? With this reply you are implying I did write those messages. Thanks!

a reply to: jofafot

Well, to be fair, I don't trust or believe anything you post.

So there is that.

a reply to: jofafot

You wanted to play “history” and you got “history”.

The history of Palestinian’s was a real effort to ethnicity cleans the Jews out of existent with Hitler and the Nazis.

At least by their constitution, Israel has moved to religious freedom.

Large numbers of Palestinians with the elected government of Gaza which is Hamas are stuck to WWII policies of ethnically cleansing Jews. And Oct 7 is proof and reminder they will use murder, rape, torture, and kidnapping. And break a cease fire to boot.

Sorry. It’s literal history and established patterns.

a reply to: Lazy88

You wanted to play “history” and you got “history”.

The fact is, there are multiple times where you acted as if I said some things I haven't said. And you failed to quote me where I said those things you claimed I did, despite me specifically requesting you to quote me on those things, multiple times. This fact tells me a lot about the "games" I'm supposed to have "wanted to play", according to you.

originally posted by: jofafot
a reply to: Lazy88

You wanted to play “history” and you got “history”.

The fact is, there are multiple times where you acted as if I said some things I haven't said. And you failed to quote me where I said those things you claimed I did, despite me specifically requesting you to quote me on those things, multiple times. This fact tells me a lot about the "games" I'm supposed to have "wanted to play", according to you.

People of Israel and Jewish heritage didn’t ask you to misrepresent their struggle to survive since WWII.

And yet here we are. With Hamas still the elected government of Gaza, still in power, that broke a cease fire to murder, torture, rape, and kidnapping of Jews. Policies that harken back to WWII policies where Palestinians worked with nazis to ethnically cleanse Jews.

Why do you get to control the narrative?

You

originally posted by: jofafot
a reply to: DBCowboy
In the table on that link, why is there no data about killed Arabs/Palestinians on "1860-Present" row?
Also why is there so much data missing on the table's wounded column? There are 10 rows of missing data about numbers for wounded Arabs/Palestinians and 6 rows of missing data for wounded Jews/Israelis.
And I don't think this table takes recent events into account. They are missing too.
Also I think that site is heavily biased and not reflecting truth because whoever wrote that page made sure to create tables for "Israelis Killed by Palestinian Terrorism" and "Palestinians Killed by Palestinians" but no there is no table to be found when it comes to palestinians killed by israeli/jewish terrorism. Makes me think writer(s) might be thinking israelis/jews have never committed acts of terrorism.

But when people want to post how Palestinians supported nazi policy, and seem to be carrying out those policies to today, you got 9issy.

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

I just hate seeing mothers holding their dead babies and I especially hate seeing the eyes of the little children...there is a sad light in them I've never seen in children before, or even adults, for that matter. It is more than a shame what is happening to Palestinians, regardless of the how and why, it is not acceptable and it must be resolved and prevented from ever happening again. Humanity should be evolving past this kind of cruelty by now!!!

It's been an interesting read from what I've saw.

Some might as well be saying PTSD only applies to soldiers and killing innocents is pretty normal in wartime anyways so it's all good. Personally I cannot be so dismissive of human suffering. I've been around ATS long enough to know what posters will think of ghetto kids abroad or at home. Hardly humane or understanding would be my dismissive comment although I fully understand I am a hypocrite. At a guess I'd say others obsess over perceptually being right and focus on the wrongs of others

I don't thinly veil my lack of respect for certain groups because of my preconceptions. If we have laws national and international I'd say they should be equally applied. That or they don't matter which would probably be the reasoning of a terrorist for their atrocities right? That's why I mentioned Tamil Tigers...

Equality, self-determination and freedom shouldn't be foreign concepts to a western educated mind, neither should the concepts found within psychology that are often applied to highly stressed and desperate people. We should be over such cruelty but it's easy to dismiss cruelty when you consider another human to be lesser than you. That's what it boils down to imho... Dogs shouldn't even be treated like that.

Too easy to just say "evil Muslims" and I find such bias funny coming from nations espousing religious freedom. "But Palestinians should be sorting out Hamas!" lol. It's an ignorant statement...

a reply to: Lazy88

People of Israel and Jewish heritage didn’t ask you to misrepresent their struggle to survive since WWII.

What is this supposed to mean?

Did my quotes from wikipedia and timesofisrael caused you to view me as someone who is "misrepresenting" struggles of jewish people? Well, if that is the case your problem is not with me, go ask those writers why they've written those. I don't want to assume but there is a high chance because it is the truth.

Or is this because because I was skeptic about that table and its writers? I've already explained reasoning behind my skepticism.

And yet here we are.

Yes, here we are. I'm here with you while you are constantly replying to me in an effort to make me look like an anti-semite.

I'm constantly saying how generalization is a bad thing, how you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of it, how not all palestinians support hamas. You on the other hand just keep complaining about my messages with constant replies such as:
(from page 5)All palestinians are bad!:

And yet Hamas is still in power, not forced or given up by the Palestinians in Gaza, parents of Gaza are more than willing to make martyrs out of their children. With no effort to shield nor evacuate. While Hamas still uses human shields.

Hamas got their bloody war. They got their jihad.

(from page 5)All palestinians are bad!(2):

Palestinians thinks it glorious to die in the war of Jihad, give them all the glory the want.

(from page 6)This time not only all palestinians are bad but all muslims are bad "because the way their religion programs them"!:

Palestinians are needlessly dying in Gaza because the way their religion programs them to fight and the call of martyrdom.

(from page 6)An actual insult because I don't agree with your "palestinians=hamas" messages:

You’re stupid if you don’t understand how many militant groups are under the term “Palestinian” where many of the groups are still around.

And now currently this is what you wrote to argue with me:

With Hamas still the elected government of Gaza, still in power, that broke a cease fire to murder, torture, rape, and kidnapping of Jews. Policies that harken back to WWII policies where Palestinians worked with nazis to ethnically cleanse Jews.

But here is your problem. You don't read, atleast not fully. Based on your replies, I am assuming you just read a few lines at most then imagined how it continued, then made counter arguments based on arguments you THOUGHT I presented. Do you want me to give you an example of it? I have never denied hitler and "palestinian arabs" connection. I didn't even talk about it. That event took place entirely in your head. And what is even funnier is YOU EVEN BOASTED ABOUT HOW I NEVER TALKED ABOUT THEM(from page 8):

Funny you glance over ties of Arabs and Palestinians to Nazi Germany

Infact, the whole time, I've never denied anything about hamas or nazis. All my posts are either about palestinians who don't support hamas or about the history of idf and even in those cases I provided my sources to let people know I am not making things up. You on the other hand, are still failing at quoting me about things which you claimed I said.

Why do you get to control the narrative?

This is ironic coming from you considering all the things you claimed I said both in this thread and another. But you were never able to find those things you claim I said. You just keep arguing about things I've never said. Seriously, why are you doing this?

But when people want to post how Palestinians supported nazi policy, and seem to be carrying out those policies to today, you got 9issy.

Do you NOT see this sh!t too? I am talking about you making generalizations AGAIN. I've posted about this. I'VE NEVER DENIED THEIR CONNECTION. IF YOU ARE SO SURE FIND AND QUOTE MY POST WHERE I SAID THOSE.

originally posted by: Lazy88
At least by their constitution, Israel has moved to religious freedom.

They don't have a constitution.

originally posted by: jofafot
I don't find this plan honest. It reeks of dishonesty.

Oh yeah, it reeks for sure. I especially found the part about the Gazans getting some sort of job in the whole thing to be the smelliest of all. They've been trying to get the whole chunk of real estate since before WWI and although it has been obvious all along, this is purely brazen and demonstrates the profound sense of impunity the Zionist gov't has enjoyed ever since the start.

I did like the fact that no one seems willing to go in on it with Israel. And why should they?

THIS is how the current hostilities started:

Arab League Declaration May 1948

The State of Israel was declared independent on Friday evening May 14, 1948. That night, the regular forces of Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon invaded the nascent state. The Egyptian Foreign Minister informed the Security Council that "Egyptian armed forces have started to enter Palestine to establish law and order" (his cable to the Security Council, S/743, 15 May 1948). The Governments of the Arab League States issued a statement on May 15 as their forces were advancing into Palestine.
1. Palestine was part of the former Ottoman Empire subject to its law and represented in its parliament. The overwhelming majority of the population of Palestine were Arabs. There was in it a small minority of Jews that enjoyed the same rights and bore the same responsibilities as the [other] inhabitants, and did not suffer any ill-treatment on account of its religious beliefs. The holy places were inviolable and the freedom of access to them was guaranteed.

2. The Arabs have always asked for their freedom and independence. On the outbreak of the First World War, and when the Allies declared that they were fighting for the liberation of peoples, the Arabs joined them and fought on their side with a view to realising their national aspirations and obtaining their independence. England pledged herself to recognise the independence of the Arab countries in Asia, including Palestine. The Arabs played a remarkable part in the achievement of final victory and the Allies have admitted this.

3. In 1917 England issued a declaration in which she expressed her sympathy with the establishment of a National Home for the Jews in Palestine. When the Arabs knew of this they protested against it, but England reassured them by affirming to them that this would not prejudice the right of their countries to freedom and independence or affect the political status of the Arabs in Palestine. Notwithstanding the legally void character of this declaration, it was interpreted by England to aim at no more than the establishment of a spiritual centre for the Jews in Palestine, and to conceal no ulterior political aims, such as the establishment of a Jewish State. The same thing was declared by the Jewish leaders.

It goes on for quite a bit after that. It explains a lot for those willing to read it.

originally posted by: jofafot

What is this supposed to mean?

Your first post in this thread?

originally posted by: jofafot
a reply to: KrustyKrab
You are right, they should be prosecuted. On a related note, what do you think about idf's war crimes? Should they be prosecuted too? I was just watching a documentary about ex idf soldiers and what they were doing during their service. Seems like atleast some of them were torturing palestinians, plain and simple. I wonder what happened to those soldiers. I wonder if the people with same mindsets are still serving in idf,the "most moral army in the world". I wonder what those that were tortured thought about idf and israel as a whole while being tortured.
youtu.be...

You were ask for evidence of war crimes?

Your reply was watch a video you couldn’t back up.

originally posted by: jofafot
a reply to: KrustyKrab
Really? You are going to play definition of war crimes game? Well, I am not playing it. Have fun watching the video by the way.

originally posted by: jofafot

I'm constantly saying how generalization is a bad thing,

Yet you implied “Isreal” in general is committing war crimes, then you flee from the argument.

Is Hamas the elected government of Gaza. Did they sanction the murder, rape, torture, kidnapping of civilians on Oct 7th. Yes. Does Hamas still have US hostages, yes. If Hamas would have surrendered after sanctioning multiple war crimes would many still be alive, yes.

originally posted by: jofafot

not all palestinians support hamas.

Yet Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and is still in power holding US hostages which is a war crime.

originally posted by: jofafot
But here is your problem.

I don’t have a problem. You do.

The war crimes you can’t “explain” you want to pin on Israel is because Hamas poses as civilians. Reports militant deaths as noncombatants. Uses human shields. Hamas does nothing to create military bases but embeds itself in civil infrastructure and launches military operations/ attacks/ rocket launches from civilian infrastructure. Hamas does nothing to separate or make itself identifiable from civilians. Which are all war crimes. The population of Gaza seems complicit in these acts.

Hamas and the Palestinian Authority lies. It’s known and proven.


Funny you ignored or didn’t list the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion on Oct 17 . A example I provided. Where a Gaza militant rocket misfired and hit the hospital. Where Hamas and the Palestinian Authority lied to Gaza and the world it was an isreal air strike. Where it’s not likely 100 were killed. But Hamas and the Palestinian Authority inflated the number by 5. Where Hamas and the Palestinian Authority had no interest in an investigation. And they still push the lie it was an Israeli air strike.

Where you want to generalize “Isreal” as a war criminal, but run from providing any real evidence and ignore context. I have posted specific known war crimes and lies committed by Palestinians under Hamas and other Militant groups. I have provided known examples where Palestinian moms desire their sons to be martyrs, and are proud when the commit suicide bombings.

Additional insight found in the Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel, also May 1948:

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

WE APPEAL to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building-up of its State and to receive the State of Israel into the comity of nations.

WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

Less than a month later, the The Deir Yassin Massacre happened.

originally posted by: AliceTheSmall

originally posted by: Lazy88
At least by their constitution, Israel has moved to religious freedom.

They don't have a constitution.

Really?

The Basic Laws of Israel (Hebrew: חוקי היסוד‎, romanized: Ḥukey HaYesod) are fourteen quasi-constitutional laws of the State of Israel, some of which can only be changed by a supermajority vote in the Knesset (with varying requirements for different Basic Laws and sections). Many of these laws are based on the individual liberties that were outlined in the Israeli Declaration of Independence.[1] The Basic Laws deal with the formation and role of the principal institutions of the state, and with the relations between the state's authorities. They also protect the country's civil rights, although some of these rights were earlier protected at common law by the Supreme Court of Israel.[2] The Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty enjoys super-legal status, giving the Supreme Court the authority to disqualify any law contradicting it, as well as protection from Emergency Regulations.[3][4]

en.m.wikipedia.org...

What’s Hamas have?

originally posted by: Lazy88

originally posted by: AliceTheSmall

originally posted by: Lazy88
At least by their constitution, Israel has moved to religious freedom.

They don't have a constitution.

What’s Hamas have?

Hamas is just "Shoot, kill, rape, murder, and necrophilia"
(Then blame Israel)

a reply to: Lazy88

You were ask for evidence of war crimes?
Your reply was watch a video you couldn’t back up.
Yet you implied “Isreal” in general is committing war crimes, then you flee from the argument.

I couldn't back up? I "fleed"? In the DOCUMENTARY video EX-IDF women are talking about their experience while they were serving in idf. There is nothing to back up BECAUSE IT(MY SOURCE) COMES DIRECTLY FROM EX-IDF SOLDIERS. My source is literally THEM. Let me give you a simple ONE example. IDF soldiers were INFACT TORTURING prisoners. For example, they were PUTTING OUT CIGARS ON A KIDS BODY. They were BEATING UP A KID. Do you want to know how that "incident" ended? The ex-idf woman's commander told her to go to the commander of soldiers who tortured that kid and tell him to "CHANGE THE REPORT" to cover it up. This is just ONE event where idf hid the truth and did so on purpose. WATCH THE VIDEO.

Details about the video directly from youtube link I'll provide below:

A personal account of female soldiers about their life in the Israeli Army, the only one to draw women for mandatory military service.
A female point of view on the drama of an unending war, on the moral challenges they faced at the encounter with the Palestinian population. Questions that were not dealt with during the service are raised today with great pain - and courage. A female point of view on the drama of an unending war, on the moral challenges the soldiers faced at the encounter with the Palestinian population. The young women look back critically at the way they handled the power that was placed in their hands at the young age of eighteen. Did they really smile in the pictures?
In 1988 the filmmaker served herself in the Israeli Defence Force in the Occupied Territories. 'How could I ever think I'd forget...' is what one of the young women asks herself at then end of this film.

Their name are Meytal, Rotem, Inbar, Dana, Tal, Libi, they have one thing in common, having served the Israeli Defense Forces. In Israel, the national military service is mandatory for all Israeli citizens over the age of 18, male and female.
Through the different stories of these women, the documentary raises the question of the place of women in the army, a world historically of men, but also and more broadly the question of the group and what the human is able to do to assert its place .
These young women from the top of their 18 years, will discover a world completely different from their daily life in the ultra secured state that is Isreal. First of all, entering this military space will instinctively lead them to erase their femininity and copy the behavior of men. Furthermore, joining the army will also lead them to participate in a group dynamic, based on their belonging to Israel. Some of them will commit atrocious acts during this endless conflict with Palestine, which they would certainly never have thought of being able to undertake.
In fact, for some of them, the pride of serving their country and doing "good" will soon give way to a feeling of disillusionment and fear when faced with the reality of the horrors of war.
With impressive candor they talk about what they saw and what they did; the way they tried to make sense of this ‘other world’, and how they tried to reconcile their experiences with the self they were familiar with, stripped of army uniform. However, the documentary does not seek to excuse or justify the acts that were committed in the West Bank during this period since the first Palestinian uprising.
"To See if I’m Smiling" powerfully explores the way gender, ethics, power and moral responsibility interact in times of war. Its rare tapestry of women’s testimonies leaves us to ponder some of the most burning questions of our times. It is not only a story about women in the Israeli army and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but a universal story, about war and its atrocities and what it does to people.

Original title: To See if I'm Smiling
A film by Tamar Yarom
A Tamar Yarom Production

www.youtube.com...

Funny you ignored or didn’t list the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion on Oct 17 . A example I provided. Where a Gaza militant rocket misfired and hit the hospital. Where Hamas and the Palestinian Authority lied to Gaza and the world it was an isreal air strike. Where it’s not likely 100 were killed. But Hamas and the Palestinian Authority inflated the number by 5. Where Hamas and the Palestinian Authority had no interest in an investigation. And they still push the lie it was an Israeli air strike.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about because you seem to think me not talking about every single thing is same as me ignoring it. Little fun fact: I didn't deny anything hamas did, this is true not only for this thread but also all other threads.

Where you want to generalize “Isreal” as a war criminal, but run from providing any real evidence and ignore context.

Just go watch the damn video if you want your "evidence" and "proof" for war crimes.

I have posted specific known war crimes and lies committed by Palestinians under Hamas and other Militant groups. I have provided known examples where Palestinian moms desire their sons to be martyrs, and are proud when the commit suicide bombings.

I am not denying any of those, I am simply saying generalization is a bad thing no matter done to who. But in this specific case it is used as an excuse to kill innocent palestinian people who have nothing to do with hamas. Tell me which part of this sentence you INSIST on not understanding?

originally posted by: AliceTheSmall

originally posted by: jofafot
I don't find this plan honest. It reeks of dishonesty.

Oh yeah, it reeks for sure. I especially found the part about the Gazans getting some sort of job in the whole thing to be the smelliest of all. They've been trying to get the whole chunk of real estate since before WWI and although it has been obvious all along, this is purely brazen and demonstrates the profound sense of impunity the Zionist gov't has enjoyed ever since the start.

I did like the fact that no one seems willing to go in on it with Israel. And why should they?

What happened during the Oslo Accords?

en.m.wikipedia.org...

The Oslo Accords are a pair of interim agreements between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO): the Oslo I Accord, signed in Washington, D.C., in 1993;[1] and the Oslo II Accord, signed in Taba, Egypt, in 1995.[2] They marked the start of the Oslo process, a peace process aimed at achieving a peace treaty based on Resolution 242 and Resolution 338 of the United Nations Security Council. The Oslo process began after secret negotiations in Oslo, Norway, resulting in both the recognition of Israel by the PLO and the recognition by Israel of the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and as a partner in bilateral negotiations.

Didn’t Israel start withdrawing from agreed lands as defined by the Oslo Accords?

Then Hamas conducted a violent taking of power placing the Palestinian Authority out of controlling power, then became the governing group in Gaza.

Where Isreal went from being recognized back to “On the destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)” the under Hamas.

The Hamas Covenant

embassies.gov.il...


The call to jihad:
"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)
"Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33)

Isreal wanted peace, Hamas forced them to react.

originally posted by: jofafot
a reply to: Lazy88

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about

Too bad no Palestinian whistleblowers have came forward to let Isreal and the US know where the hostages are.

If the Israeli whistleblowers are truthful, there will be investigations and convictions.

Yet, list the known Hamas war crimes and lies by the governing group of Hamas you get stupid.


The Palestinian people are in this mess because Hamas broke a cease fire on Oct 7 where they brutally killed over 1000 civilians in Israel through murder, rape, torture. Where they kidnapped civilians and still hold 5 US hostages.

a reply to: Lazy88
I still have no idea what you are talking about. You aren't making any sense.
Are you trying to say all palestinians are hamas?

a reply to: Lazy88

Yet Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and is still in power holding US hostages which is a war crime.

Quite a few Palestinians are in Israeli jails without an actual charge or any semblance of due process. Should they be considered hostages too? Women and children are part of those numbers if you care to look it up.

Do you not find it silly to ask terrorists to make military bases though?

What are they going to make them with? Who is going to allow the imports of the infrastructure and the equipment needed to call them actual military bases, not even the Taliban or ISIS could get their hands on (and operate) the likes of sophisticated communication systems, radars or even properly stocked armouries.

Just wondering where your mind is going with the idea Hamas should be a fully stocked military outfit when Gaza has been under an effective blockade, I'm genuinely curious how that works.