Bibi’s Dilemma

The Zionist Regime, aka the State of Israel, the overlords of Occupied Palestine, have a problem. A big problem. One that they’ve created with their constant program of deception on every point of their situation in the Middle East. Every lie that they’ve told has been designed to persuade and continually enthrall the world into taking their side, few questions asked, in their 75 year imperialist campaign, but instead they’ve set a trap for themselves. They’ve been teetering on the edge of it for a long time but their feet have slipped and they’re finally falling in.

I’m going to refer to the United States as ‘big brother’ and the State of Israel/Zionist regime as ‘little brother.’

One of the main arguments little brother has used to justify its ongoing and systemic ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is that it is fighting terrorists who want to put an end to their very mortal existence, just as the Nazi regime wanted to do 80 years ago. The first time, there was no defense for the targeted population and tragedy ensued. Since genocide is supposedly man’s worst inhumanity to man, and everyone can legitimately agree that ‘never again’ is the only correct attitude to have, Big brother, and many of his cronies ( the western nations which also support Israel ) go along with the idea that there is an inherent right to defense that shouldn’t be challenged. So the term ‘terrorist’ is the required term for Hamas.

However, all nations do not agree with that label. The UN considers Hamas a political movement, not a terrorist group, even after October 7, 2023. Some consider the political arm as legitimate but the militant arm terrorists. If the political side is legitimate, then the military faction could also be considered a legitimate military organization. One point that can be argued is that the Hamas military doesn’t look like terrorists and isn’t armed like terrorists. Their fighting tactics against the IDF are far more sophisticated than throwing ied’s at tanks. Their strategies appear well thought out and thorough. In any other situation, they would be seen as a legitimate and well organized national fighting force.

Factoring in another accepted ‘fact,’ that is, that Israel is the only democracy in the region, and another justification used by the regime, which is that the Palestinians deserve their situation because they elected Hamas, there’s a glaring contradiction: either Palestine is also a democracy or the Palestinians do not deserve collective punishment.

It can’t be both ways. And that’s just one of many snags. Albeit a big one.

Of course no one is allowed to point out any glaring consistencies because to do so is anti-semitic. That’s a moot point, though, since Palestinian Arabs are also Semites. There’s no ammo for that weapon so out through the window it goes. Slandering the truth is impossible so its messengers are slandered instead. It’s worked quite well for decades. But it’s not going to work anymore. Simple logic says either one or the other is true. Either there’s only one democracy in the Middle East or the Palestinians are being collectively punished.

This is the only my opening point. There is a lot more to this trap I am claiming the Stare of Israel has set for itself; too much for just one post, but enough to start a discussion, I think.

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

When was Hamas elected and since then, has there been another election?

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

I'll play especially if it ostracizes me from both sides of this silly fence I sit on....

• Gaza being a democracy has less legitimacy as claiming Syria is a democracy, you've rightly (in my eyes) mentioned the hypocrisy in "the west" when it comes to claiming democracies but then self-identification is only a thing to be defended when it suits the agenda.

• I'd claim that Hamas is a terrorist organisation that hasn't been elected by the majority of Gazans, maybe we should have more surveys... I'd also have to ask what is the definition of terrorism because it isn't as simple as claiming "these chaps aren't as ballsy as Tamil Tigers".

•The UN needs to catch up. Maybe even show some initiative whilst it's at it instead of being totally reactive. However I 100% agree that our nations cannot selectively pick and choose how we treat an aspiring nation. Either Gaza has a right (as well as the rest of Palestine) to self identify as a nation or it doesn't. We can't go claiming the military wing is legit whilst we totally ignore the plea of an apparent nation. The hypocrisy within that is ridiculous. Terrorists cannot be held accountable in the same way a nation can, neither can the leaders. Unless of course we find some weird and convoluted way of separating said group with a decent level of morality and conviction. In the meantime I'll claim that Turkey and Qatar are literally harbouring terrorists...

• 100% agree on the definition of Semites. It's got nothing to do with Judaism, it's bloody (emphasis on the blood) cultural appropriation. Lol.

I think that's enough from me for now, I'm not that we'll studied but even I can see the glaringly obvious double standards and hypocrisy. If it was up to me I'd throw a big middle eastern party where the bottled water comes with a complimentary 'dancing' tablet. But I'm an idiot who doesn't play well with blatant hypocrites... Hence why I sit on a crumbling fence.

I could add to all those points but why bother? Hamas are fairly clever at recycling given the very long blockade, a change of heart on both sides could see efforts go a long way in terms of progress. That won't be happening though just like you won't see much debate hear other than a handful of people who'll largely be ignored other than the obligatory accusations of anti-Semitism.

Respect for engaging the brain and not the heart though, not the easiest thing in this 'black and white' world.

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

In the beginning of all this, it was deemed "a war".

"Hamas has declared war on Israel!" Both sides were referred to as "war fighters". Then, as in all wars, the enemy is dehumanized and redefined to fit the response.

They went for the empathy jugular by trying to tap into the "Never Forget", the GWOT, "Mission Accomplished", propaganda most Western citizens are already familiar with. Manipulation overdrive.

So the Hamas war fighters became Hamas terrorists so Israel could completely take the gloves off and what you have is what you see and hear now but the info is not trustworthy to begin with anyway. Western media is making sure what is known and shown jives with the narrative they're desperately trying to push and maintain.

So there isn't a huge reserve of LNG under Gaza anymore? What happened to that facet of the story?

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

If you were to go around searching in threads related to this discussion you would have seen that there are members who can't answer a simple question

Is Palestine occupied by Israel or is it Israel occupied by Palestine?

As absurd as it may get, some posters have argued it's Israel that is under occupation or at least have implied so.

We know that occupied forces and occupiers have no legal right to defense as they claim they have. The oppressors never had any of these rights regardless of the absurd claims.

Having said that, most people will agree that killing civilians on either sides is unacceptable, appalling, unethical, and should be avoided at all costs.

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

Contrary to the media propaganda that had been challenged quite a lot, there are not many countries that support Israel in their ethnic cleansing campaign and in their efforts to kill as many innocent civilians as possible and then blame it on the existence of Hamas.

As the matter of fact everywhere in Europe, Latin America and other places in the World there is very strong solidarity with the Palestinian people who have been slaughtered and and with tens of thousands of deaths over the last 7 months.

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

Great thread and keep up the good work!

The accusations of antisemitism have no basis in reality and can be viewed as desperate attempts, when there is no support for what Israel is doing, to censor and silence criticism against the State of Israel.

It doesn't seem to work though and has created the opposite results.

www.washingtonpost.com...

I’m Jewish, and I’ve covered wars. I know war crimes when I see them

As Israeli forces grind through Gaza in what the International Court of Justice defines as a “plausible” case of genocide, my family’s history of philanthropy runs into my familiarity with war crimes. When Israel bombs and shoots civilians, blocks food aid, attacks hospitals, and cuts off water supplies, I remember the same outrages in Bosnia. When people in a Gaza flour line were attacked, I thought of the Sarajevans killed waiting in line for bread and the perpetrators who in each case insisted the victims were slaughtered by their own side.

An American-Israeli journalist arguing that Israel is committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. Not the only though, but one of the many brave souls who have criticised fiercely the paranoic regime of Israel.

I can't post - it keeps being cutoff

still happening

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

So far this decade the words:

Vaccine
Immunity
Woman
Man
Genocide
Terrorist

To name a few, have all been co-opted and redefined by special interest groups.

Very hard to partake in an intelligent debate or conversation when the meaning of words are moving targets.

originally posted by: Daughter2v2
I can't post - it keeps being cutoff

I know an inequality symbol causes all words after that symbol to be cut off. HTML thing. This one doesn't ">", but if the shark faces right it eats the rest of the post.

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

You know, when you start a topic with, "The Zionist Regime".

I’m going to refer to the United States as ‘big brother’ and the State of Israel/Zionist regime as ‘little brother.’

They are already Great Satan and Little Satan, that's about the most condemnation you can get with bias titles.

And please don't call Hamas a political movement. They are a cold-hearted angry group of jihadist and even The King of Jordan knows this.

If they are this acceptable political movement, where's all the love from Amman or Cairo? Where are the Jordanian and Egyptians opening up their homes to their embattled freedom fighting cousins?

You must mean militarized Iran proxies that have 3 counties and one occupied territory of focus and influence upon. Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine.

ALSO screw the UN, at least a percentage of their workers.

press.un.org...

Condemning the United Nations silence in the face of Hamas’s sexual violence, he asked: “We have heard the empty words of UN officials calling for the release of the hostages but have we seen any of them take action?”

Playing a video featuring women describing sexual violence at the hands of Hamas attackers, he said calling for a ceasefire means “abandoning these women to sexual abusing Hamas monsters”. The United Nations will be a collaborator to rapists, he said, adding that instead, it must “stand alongside the vibrant democracy of Israel”.

Dozens of employees of United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) took part in the October 7 massacre while many more praised the savage attack, he said, adding:  “In Gaza, the UN is a terror organization.”  Also showing video footage of what he described as an UNRWA social worker stuffing a body into a truck to be taken into Gaza, he said that “UN employees are kidnapping Israeli children”.

Adding that 12 per cent of the Agency’s workers are members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, he said that UNRWA ensures that Palestinian refugees will forever remain refugees as will their children, grandchildren and every following generation “until one day they can all storm into Israel to claim it for themselves”.

originally posted by: NorthOS
a reply to: AliceTheSmall

So far this decade the words:

Vaccine
Immunity
Woman
Man
Genocide
Terrorist

To name a few, have all been co-opted and redefined by special interest groups.

Very hard to partake in an intelligent debate or conversation when the meaning of words are moving targets.

I see the same techniques used by the Pro-War crowd used by the Trans activists.

I keep hearing all Palestinians are Hamas - they wouldn't apply the same logic to themselves.

If Bibi is convicted of war crimes, would they be ok with punishing all of Israel.

What about Bush's non-existent weapons of mass destruction?
Should Texas be destroyed?

originally posted by: WannabeeAuCourant
a reply to: AliceTheSmall

When was Hamas elected and since then, has there been another election?

2006. And no, there have not been any more elections since then in Gaza, and since 2009 in the West Bank. It's a big mess and I haven't been able to figure out what is really going on in regard to that issue yet.

originally posted by: RAY1990
I'll play

especially if it ostracizes me from both sides of this silly fence I sit on....

Thank you!

I could add to all those points but why bother? Hamas are fairly clever at recycling given the very long blockade, a change of heart on both sides could see efforts go a long way in terms of progress. That won't be happening though just like you won't see much debate hear other than a handful of people who'll largely be ignored other than the obligatory accusations of anti-Semitism.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and I agree with much you've said.

I just hate seeing mothers holding their dead babies and I especially hate seeing the eyes of the little children...there is a sad light in them I've never seen in children before, or even adults, for that matter. It is more than a shame what is happening to Palestinians, regardless of the how and why, it is not acceptable and it must be resolved and prevented from ever happening again. Humanity should be evolving past this kind of cruelty by now!!!

Respect for engaging the brain and not the heart though, not the easiest thing in this 'black and white' world

Thank you!

Hamas DID carry out terror attacks so that does make them a terrorist organization by definition. But I'd like to share some lesser known information.

Modern day idf was called haganah before israel's decleration of independence. And haganah also DID carry out terror attacks. I see many similarities between "lehi", "irgun" and hamas both of which are haganah's "offshoot" organizations. Based on history, I believe if the current roles were reversed(meaning palestinians were dominant and every jew was seen as a terrorist) haganah and especially its "offshoots" would be acting exactly same as hamas. That's why I won't support either side(israel and hamas). They are two faces of the same coin. But I do support innocents who got caught in the crossfire, that's why I hope this "war" ends soon.

Lehi (Hebrew pronunciation: [ˈleχi]; Hebrew: לח"י – לוחמי חרות ישראל Lohamei Herut Israel – Lehi, "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel – Lehi", sometimes abbreviated "LHI"), often known pejoratively as the Stern Gang,[10][11][12][13] was a Zionist paramilitary militant organization founded by Avraham ("Yair") Stern in Mandatory Palestine.[14][15][16] Its avowed aim was to evict the British authorities from Palestine by use of violence, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state. It was initially called the National Military Organization in Israel,[17] upon being founded in August 1940, but was renamed Lehi one month later.[18] The group referred to its members as terrorists[19] and admitted to having carried out terrorist attacks.

en.wikipedia.org...(militant_group)

The Irgun (Hebrew: ארגון; full title: Hebrew: הארגון הצבאי הלאומי בארץ ישראל Hā-ʾIrgun Ha-Tzvaʾī Ha-Leūmī b-Ērētz Yiśrāʾel, lit. "The National Military Organization in the Land of Israel"), or Etzel (Hebrew: אצ"ל) (sometimes abbreviated IZL), was a Zionist paramilitary organization that operated in Mandatory Palestine between 1931 and 1948. It was an offshoot of the older and larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah (Hebrew: Hebrew: הגנה, Defence).[1] The Irgun has been viewed as a terrorist organization or organization which carried out terrorist acts.[2][3][4][5] The Irgun policy was based on what was then called Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky.[6] Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre that killed at least 107 Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: NorthOS

So far this decade the words:

Genocide
Terrorist

To name a few, have all been co-opted and redefined by special interest groups.

I agree, those terms have been co-opted.

www.haaretz.com... etrated-by-isra/0000017f-e496-d7b2-a77f-e79772340000

An investigative report published in Haaretz, with research done by the Akevot Institute for Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Research, detailed the operations carried out by the Israeli occupation army in October 1948. These were known as Operation Yoav, which enabled Israeli settlement to the south, and Operation Hiram, which was conducted to enable the occupation of the north.

The report, titled Classified Docs Reveal Massacres of Palestinians in '48 – and What Israeli Leaders Knew also detailed operations that are little known and not recorded in history, such as the massacres of Al-Burj in July 1948, Meron, and al-Reineh.

According to the report, four elderly men remained in Al-Burj after the massacre of the villagers. One of the men was sent by an Israeli soldier to pick vegetables to distract him from witnessing the crimes Israeli soldiers were about to commit against the other three men.

The account on Al-Burj read, "The three others were taken to an isolated house. Afterward an anti-tank shell was fired. When the shell missed the target, six hand grenades were thrown into the house. They killed an elderly man and woman, and the elderly woman was put to death with a firearm, and they torched the house and burned the three bodies. When Hajj Ibrahim returned with his guard, he was told that the three others had been sent to the hospital in Ramallah. Apparently he didn't believe the story, and a few hours later he too was put to death, with four bullets."

In its description of Operation Hiram, the report unveiled the massive ethnic cleansing and forced expulsion undertaken by the Israeli occupation army within 30 hours, bringing the Palestinian population of the area down from 120,000 people to just 30,000.

Regarding this atrocity, the account by Mikunis read:

A. They annihilated with a machine gun 35 Arabs who had surrendered to that company with a white flag in their hands.

B. They took as captives peaceful residents, among them women and children, ordered them to dig a pit, pushed them into it with long French bayonets and shot the unfortunates until they were all murdered. There was even a woman with an infant in her arms.

C. Arab children of about 13-14 who were playing with grenades were all shot.

D. A girl of about 19-20 was raped by men from Altalena [an Irgun unit]; afterwards, she was stabbed with a bayonet and a wooden stick was thrust into her body.

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

However, all nations do not agree with that label. The UN considers Hamas a political movement, not a terrorist group, even after October 7, 2023. Some consider the political arm as legitimate but the militant arm terrorists. If the political side is legitimate, then the military faction could also be considered a legitimate military organization. One point that can be argued is that the Hamas military doesn’t look like terrorists and isn’t armed like terrorists. Their fighting tactics against the IDF are far more sophisticated than throwing ied’s at tanks. Their strategies appear well thought out and thorough. In any other situation, they would be seen as a legitimate and well organized national fighting force.

Hamas is a political party with a military wing and yes they’re terrorist.

Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by several countries including Argentina, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States, and the European Union. However, it is not regarded as a terrorist organization by countries like Afghanistan, Algeria, Iran, Russia, Norway, Turkey, China, Egypt, Syria, and Brazil.

The UN is a antisemetic organization and they for the most part hate Israel. I mean come on they appointed Iran to chair the Human Rights Council, kind of hard to take them remotely serious. I take anything they say or do with the smallest grain of salt.

Since you’re on the subject of war crimes. What about all of the Palestinian/hamas war crimes? They should be prosecuted to the fullest, right? The brutal torturing, rape and murder of 1.3k men women and children, using civilians as human shields, harboring combatants and armory in civilian dwellings, schools, hospitals and mosques costing many men, women and children their life’s, all which are war crimes. What do you think about their war crimes that you constantly conflate with genocide?????

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

Well, not just Palestinian are Semites. All Muslims and Jews are Semites.

There was Shem, Ham and Japheth. Shem is also called Sem or Sam. Shem had many children, one of them being Arphaxad. And Arphaxad had Abraham as one of his kids.

Abrahamic lineage goes down to both Jews and Muslims. They are both Abrahamic religions and people. And if you follow their upline, their fathers, they are both Semites. They both come from Sam.

Anti-Semitic means both anti Jewish and anti Muslim. Neither side can claim it as theirs.