Bibi’s Dilemma

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: FlyersFan

Yeah ... I saw that. Disturbing. Instantly receiving 8 or so stars like that on a dead board while having such a radical position? Impossible. Something clearly is askew.

I kind of noticed that too. Seems certain viewpoints get instant 8 or so stars. Even 3 worded replies get 8 stars, and I thought someone was putting a lot of effort into sock puppet accounts to do something that doesn't really matter.

It’s about as childish as the arguments they make.

a reply to: Lazy88

Do you have proof of me ignoring those claims?

I've already stated Hamas has about as much legitimacy as the Syrian regime, less so imo. At least Syria had an election in the last 4 years.

It’s kind of a stupid comment. I’m happy when anyone finds something better to do than post on social media.

Lol

To me a blockade is when a country or region is sealed of completely by something like a picket line with nothing allowed through.

Israel in agreement with Egypt heavily restricts items because Hamas does build things like terror tunnels and rockets.

That's like, your opinion... Look up the definition of a blockade, I can't help you with comprehension skills and I do have better things to do. That strip of land has been under an indefinite blockade since 2007 and it's had restrictions a lot longer than that, I first learned about it in school by someone who was actually there in the 90s

a reply to: KrustyKrab

Google it?

I'd probably have to provide numerous links since there's been some form of restriction for decades, actual blockades since Hamas (the terrorist organisation) gained power. I know you're not that stupid to have never heard human rights watchdogs referring to the Gaza strip as an open air prison. It's been talked about on ATS for years so feigning ignorance seems to be a bit of a cop out in all honesty.

As for the stars... Yeah that's weird isn't it? Seems to be riling up the people who really care about them. I've always found them detrimental to discussion. Ask a mod? they can see who comes and goes.

originally posted by: RAY1990
As for the stars... Yeah that's weird isn't it? Seems to be riling up the people who really care about them. I've always found them detrimental to discussion. Ask a mod? they can see who comes and goes.

When I was a moderator I found out that a moderator can't see who gives stars and who doesn't. There is no tracking for that. I know that regular members can give one star per post. But moderators can give two stars per post.

I also asked if they could get rid of the stars. I thought they were silly ... that they just encouraged group think ... and that they really didn't say if someone made a good post or not because someone could make a stupid post and idiots who agreed with the stupidity would star it. It would make it look like it was a good post, even though it wasn't.

But something is wrong on this thread and one other thread I noticed. People were making posts and within 2 or 3 minutes there were like 8-10 stars on posts and that's impossible ... given that this place is dying and that not many people are here and that not many people would be on that thread at that time and agreeing. It's not making sense.

a reply to: RAY1990

When I think of blockade, I think about the Union Blockade of the South from the civil war. Which was different than how goods could move in and out of Gaza before Oct 7th.

a reply to: RAY1990

Bottom line. If Palestinians would have followed the plan for peace under the Palestinian Authority instead of violent replacing it with Hamas creating an elected terrorist state with the stated purpose of destroying Israel, there might have been peace. But the Palestinians as a group in Gaza pursued and embraced terrorism.

If I had a border that I controlled with a terrorist state that had the destruction of my country in its founding documents, I would restrict what crossed that border. It’s kind of a no brainier.

originally posted by: KrustyKrab
a reply to: RAY1990

Google the definition or maybe use a dictionary. The internet would be better though since you could actually find out a lot easier what is and isn't allowed into Gaza. Concrete and rebar being the most obvious that are pertinent to the conversation although the list is extensive and includes crayons and paper... Can't have them eating them or drawing up blueprints for military bases can we?

You have a link?

I’ve been told they can get everything they want except for materials to make explosives and ammo. 🤷‍♂️

Evidently something was going in if supplies could cross the border.

a reply to: FlyersFan

I said they can see who comes and goes, so can members too but I'd imagine moderators ha e a little bit more control over that but that's just an assumption on my part having done a little bit of it myself elsewhere.

I 100% agree with the rest, echo chambers are boring aren't they? The idea was always "be the change you wish to see" around here.

a reply to: Lazy88

The world has changed quite a bit since then, that war was actually instrumental in redefining quite a few things when it comes to war and things changed a lot more with the two world wars. After the 2nd one their was extensive work done on human rights and rules when it comes to military confrontation... Going somewhat off topic with that discussion though.

If you really want to learn there's extensive studies done on the Gaza conflicts over many years by universities, the Israeli government might even have information with reasoning on why they do what they do, Egypt might also. Personal opinion: I fully understand why a blockade was/is in place just like I fully understand why the Gaza stripe is under siege right now.

The world isn't black and white is the shortest explanation I can have without getting into pointless detail about how individual opinion doesn't really matter if the individual isn't willing to learn. I'm not here to convince you Lazy88.

a reply to: Lazy88

Yeah...

So you are feigning ignorance then.

Good for you.

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: FlyersFan


The world isn't black and white

It was in the founding documents of Hamas to destroy Israel.

Oct 7 was a clear act of terrorism during a cease fire.

Its clear that using human shields and storing rockets in school which is just some of the clear and proven violations committed by Hamas are war crimes.

No brainer, don’t store weapons like rockets in schools if you want to protect your children unless you want to use them as human shields and collateral damage.

originally posted by: RAY1990
a reply to: Lazy88

Yeah...

So you are feigning ignorance then.

Good for you.

?


Is it false the PLO representing the Palestinians established a road to peace, and the Palestinian Authority was going to be the governing body to establish peace?

So. What happened to the Palestinian Authority and its ability to lead to peace?

a reply to: Lazy88

It was in the founding documents of Hamas to destroy Israel.

Oct 7 was a clear act of terrorism during a cease fire.

Israel really needs to end this and end Hamas once and for all.

They're getting the grief anyway, they might as well earn it and do the world a huge favor at the same time.

They can do it too.

a reply to: Lazy88

Hamas in its early days, according to former Israeli officials, was seen by the government of Israel as a counterweight to the PLO. Israel supported Hamas as a way to break the PLO's hold on the region. Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s; who said had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the PLO and Fattah Party. "The Israeli government gave me a budget, and the military government gives to the mosques.". Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu confirmed Gen. Yitzhak claims and said “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank,”.

The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. The Israeli lavish funding helped Hamas projects leading to wide spread acceptance and popularity in Palestinian society. Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for decades.“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.”.

The purpose of the doctrine was to perpetuate the rift between Hamas in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. That would preserve the diplomatic paralysis and forever remove the “danger” of negotiations with the Palestinians over the partition of Israel into two states on the argument that the Palestinian Authority doesn’t represent all the Palestinians. The end goal of the Israeli government is to create chaos in Palestine to break OSLO agreement negotiation by introducing breakup in the Palestinian government from within to avoid two states solution. Gershon Hacohen, a major general in reserves, said, “We need to tell the truth. Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.” Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said: “Netanyahu isn’t interested in the two-state solution. Rather, he wants to separate Gaza from the West Bank, as he told me at the end of 2010.”. The Israeli goal of breaking up Palestinian government is to prevent possibility of reaching peace through negotiation.

On the other hand, Palestinians were fed up with corruption among Fatah leadership (PLO). Ami Ayalon, a former head of Israeli intelligence, told The New York Times in 2006: “When they chose Hamas, it is more because of the corruption and failure of the Palestinian Authority and Fatah than because of religion or terrorism.” On a national level, people see top Fatah (PLO) officials building themselves lavish homes and driving luxury cars. And on a local level, they see jobs being given to relatives and friends, unfairnesses in the awarding of building permits, dirty streets. People are voting for Hamas as a protest against Fatah.

Since then PLO government has a fear of losing elections again, they blamed their refusal to allow elections again on Israel's refusal to give Palestinians right to vote in East Jerusalem.

Goggle image search for 'human shields used in Palestine'

Both sides are accused of this, so I wanted to see some photographic proof. It's actually pretty one-sided as far as visual evidence, as opposed to hearsay.

There is also the human shielding aspect of the settlements in the West Bank and the Kibbutz's. Both are used to solidify illegal occupation by the Israeli government as well as to justify excessive retaliation if and when those communities/residences are attacked. Kibbutz's have a history going back to the initial immigration of Israelis during the British Mandate. Most, if not all, of them had foundations laid immediately upon destruction of a Palestinian village. Looking at a map of the October 7 attacks, it is easy to see how these locations put Israeli residents in extreme danger in just their daily life.

originally posted by: Lazy88
And the Oslo Accords was a negotiated new start in the 1990’s with the Palestinians to work towards peace. Hamas took control of Gaza, took political power from the group that was supposed to drive the peace process with Israeli. Then Hamas under their convent of destroying Israel become the elected political group to govern Gaza by the Palestinians of Gaza.

The Oslo Accords weren't going to accomplish anything for the Palestinians, at least not anything even close to what they have a right to, which is self-determination and the right of return. Israel won't ever consider those two ideas and this was especially apparent in the Oslo Accords.

The existence of the 'State of Israel' in Occupied Palestine is why there is no peace. It's the reason behind the existence of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and all the rest of the Palestine Resistance Movement aka 'terrorists.'

Plain and simple. Change it back to Palestine and let the Palestinians govern their own homeland. That is only FAIR and JUST.

?#@!%

originally posted by: SchrodingersRat
Israel really needs to end this and end Hamas once and for all.

They're getting the grief anyway, they might as well earn it and do the world a huge favor at the same time.

They can do it too.

No, they can't. They will not beat the Palestine Resistance Movement (of which Hamas is a part). The IDF is getting pounded on the ground and from above, both from up close and far away. Their bases are taking hit after hit after hit and the same in the field on tanks, ground troops, and their hiding places. You have to dig a little to find out, but it's starting to hurt them. They are losing much of their ability to fight from destruction of their equipment and supplies. Of course they will lie and say they aren't taking much damage but the opposing forces supply ample video evidence and claim all their attacks. Some IDF soldiers have been killed but I think only one civilian injury so far, no deaths. That might have changed, though, I don't know.

originally posted by: KrustyKrab
Sure you have, you’re the one doing it. Sad display of a sock screaming for attention.

I can't star my own posts. If you are trying to insinuate something, then just say it outright. Or better yet, share your suspicions with someone that can actually investigate it instead of making sly remarks about it. I couldn't care less. Nice diversionary tactic, though. Have to give you a for that, anyway.

originally posted by: KrustyKrab

You have a link?

I’ve been told they can get everything they want except for materials to make explosives and ammo. 🤷‍♂️

I know you weren't asking me, but here is a link, anyway. Unicef Report

This is from June 2022, so now the conditions are worse.

This is a more current report about the effects of the blockade in Gaza. hrw.org

a reply to: AliceTheSmall

OK.

You'll see. They've had it.

I bet before the end of the week we'll all see.

Watch this space.