Transgender women banned from sports is one thing. Banned from chess! Now it's getting silly.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: quintessentone

Exactly, when the game is played anonymously these factors aren’t important as psychological intimidation etc becomes irrelevant. You’re proving my points while simultaneously arguing with them.


I can’t simplify this anymore, think about it logically if that’s possible.

I think rather that you are not understanding my posts for some reason, but we obviously agree.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: quintessentone

Oh, a single study said so. I see.

Chess isn’t played anonymously and the factors I listed are the likely reason for disparity in performance when it is.

You just disproved your own position, I’m getting tired of illogical nonsense just for the sake of argument.

Think before you speak.

It's always the tactic by gender ideologues and activists to throw illogical statements and strawman arguments. They have nothing else to hold on to.

Rejecting sound studies and science is not believing in observational reality? Your beliefs rooted in validating a narrative without any studies or science, specifically with this subject the study proved that women perform equally to men in chess matches when certain factors are eliminated. You can't argue with the ratings from the matches done in this study.

What sound studies are you talking about when you're rejecting reality and science as a whole.

Your beliefs rooted in validating a narrative without any studies or science

That describes you perfectly.


If you think 'science' depends on a single study you're deluded massively.

This single study was done correctly and if you want to let's go through it method by method and you can tell me why you reject it. Game on?

The fact you're missing out is that men have an advantage in chess as shown in their rankings and achievements.

unherd.com...

The truth is that human beings are part of nature. Men and women evolved different bodies and we have also evolved different psychologies. It’s possible that evolution has left men with an innate advantage in chess.

According to Dr Carole Hooven, Harvard evolutionary biologist and author of Testosterone: The Story of the Hormone that Dominates Us and Divides Us, “males have a large advantage over females in spatial ability and, to the extent that spatial ability contributes to chess performance, this would help to explain the male advantage (on average) in chess.’ Speaking to UnHerd, Hooven added: “Of course, social factors matter too, but we should not rule out the possibility that males’ inherited biology contributes to the male advantage

Something we already know (men's advantages in chess over women).

Transwomen are men and so have no place in female sports and competitions including chess.

As for advantages, there are many for men and less so for women, read this:

"Does Gender Make Chess Skill"

theexonian.net...

If one believes that male chess players have many advantages over female chess players (as per the article above; as they always have over women in this game) then it could be argued that a man transitioning into a transwoman wanting to play with women had all the extra advantages along the way of in the game when they were a man. The then bring those advantages into a woman's chess tournament, therefore the playing field is not equal.

However, on the other hand, if the man transitioning into a transwomen is equal in experience and advantages within the game of chess as women, then what psychology would be a play here with the women players? Will they still view the transwoman as a man who had all the advantages along the way?

I'd like to see more studies of chess players of all persuasions play anonymously so we can get a truer picture of the reality.

Your post isn't relevant. We all know male chess players have advantages over female chess players. The best female players rank low on the world rankings and that's always been the case.

As mentioned above by Dr Carole Hooven from Harvard who is an evolutionary biologist and stated the obvious and something well known for years.

males have a large advantage over females in spatial ability and, to the extent that spatial ability contributes to chess performance, this would help to explain the male advantage (on average) in chess

There is no doubt males have a good advantage over females in chess and this cannot change.

No need for further studies or appeals for bogus research on people who play anonymously. Chess isn't played anonymously or behind curtains as Grenade explained to you earlier.

The reality is very different to what you're trying to argue

Transwomen are now banned from chess female competitions.

The advantages men chess players have had over the years are not related to spatial ability and this is proven when women play men anonymously as the results clearly show they are equal in skill sets.

This is your own opinion and there is no evidence for this conclusion and the only study you are referencing is not 'science' as you have mistakenly stated on many posts. Not its conclusions are sound. In fact they are refuted by everything we know including the current real ranking of female players. From 89th to 404th for the best female players.

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: AlienBorg

Women are surprisingly underrepresented in the chess world, representing less that 5% of registered tournament players worldwide and only 1% of the world's grand masters. In this paper it is argued that gender stereotypes are mainly responsible for the underperformance of women in chess. Forty-two male–female pairs, matched for ability, played two chess games via Internet. When players were unaware of the sex of opponent (control condition), females played approximately as well as males.When the gender stereotype was activated (experimental condition), women showed a drastic performance drop, but only when they were aware that they were playing against a male opponent. When they (falsely) believed to be playing against a woman, they performed as well as their male opponents. In addition, our findings suggest that women show lower chess-specific self-esteem and a weaker promotion focus, which are predictive of poorer chess performance. Copyright © 2007 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

ETA: Another one.

This paper aims to measure differences in risk behavior among expert chess players. The study employs a panel data set on international chess with 1.4 million games recorded over a period of 11 years. The structure of the data set allows us to use individual fixed-effect estimations to control for aspects such as innate ability as well as other characteristics of the players. Most notably, the data contains an objective measure of individual playing strength, the so-called Elo rating. In line with previous research, we find that women are more risk-averse than men. A novel finding is that males choose more aggressive strategies when playing against female opponents even though such strategies reduce their winning probability.

papers.ssrn.com...

Not only do women's behaviours change when playing against men, but men's behaviours also change when playing against women in face-to-face matches.

Chess is not a behavioural or psychological game. But how would you know? Have you ever played?

Men are by far better than women and have been always better than women in chess. The one study you try to reference is in direct contradiction to reality and the evidence so far.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: quintessentone

Exactly, when the game is played anonymously these factors aren’t important as psychological intimidation etc becomes irrelevant. You’re proving my points while simultaneously arguing with them.


I can’t simplify this anymore, think about it logically if that’s possible.

They haven't understood yet they're refuting their own point after creating the strawman in the first place.

a reply to: AlienBorg

You're not entirely correct there, chess is by far a psychological game.

The fact that you sit face to face, watching each others every move, facial expressions, gestures, give it a psychological aspect above most others.

The fact that some women are going to feel some sort of intimidation by a male whilst playing such a game, would give the male competitor an edge. That is what make sit such a complicated game to play, you need to know your moves, but also be able to anticipate your opponents moves and see their facial and body expressions (if they show any at all) to get a grasp on how they see the game playing out.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: AlienBorg
a reply to: quintessentone

Unlike the wildly popular Netflix chess-themed series The Queen’s Gambit, female players have struggled to climb to the top of the real-life chess world. Just 37 of the more than 1,600 international chess grandmasters are women. The current top-rated female, Hou Yifan, is ranked 89th in the world, while the reigning women’s world champion Ju Wenjun is 404th

Rankings are from 89th to 404th for the top female chess players worldwide. The true picture as everyone knows.

theconversation.com...

Rankings are separated by gender, when women and men play anonymously there is no discrepancy in rankings.

You missed this post but anyway

Unlike the wildly popular Netflix chess-themed series The Queen’s Gambit, female players have struggled to climb to the top of the real-life chess world. Just 37 of the more than 1,600 international chess grandmasters are women. The current top-rated female, Hou Yifan, is ranked 89th in the world, while the reigning women’s world champion Ju Wenjun is 404th

Rankings are from 89th to 404th for the top female chess players worldwide. The true picture as everyone knows.

theconversation.com...

originally posted by: PorkChop96
a reply to: AlienBorg

You're not entirely correct there, chess is by far a psychological game.

The fact that you sit face to face, watching each others every move, facial expressions, gestures, give it a psychological aspect above most others.

The fact that some women are going to feel some sort of intimidation by a male whilst playing such a game, would give the male competitor an edge. That is what make sit such a complicated game to play, you need to know your moves, but also be able to anticipate your opponents moves and see their facial and body expressions (if they show any at all) to get a grasp on how they see the game playing out.

I have been playing chess for years and the psychological or social factor isn't there. From my post above

Unlike the wildly popular Netflix chess-themed series The Queen’s Gambit, female players have struggled to climb to the top of the real-life chess world. Just 37 of the more than 1,600 international chess grandmasters are women. The current top-rated female, Hou Yifan, is ranked 89th in the world, while the reigning women’s world champion Ju Wenjun is 404th

No matter how much they try to spin it women at a global level are performing badly in comparison to men. The best female player hardly will make it on the top 100 players in the world and she will be at the bottom of this list, the rest will be much lower in rankings.

a reply to: AlienBorg

Not once did I say you were incorrect about women being lacking in comparison to men in the game

Chess is a mental game, always has been always will be, whether it is for you or not is purely personal. But it is meant to be plaid with your head/mind, giving it that psychological aspect.

a reply to: Grenade

what it says is, it's the superficial triggers that create the differences and not the chromosomes.

it doesn't surprise me that you can't understand the subtleties this study implies...

maybe a scenario could help you understand what's going on.

If trans have to play in their birth gender category, there will be man looking females playing against other female looking females, right?

wouldn't that create the same problematic dynamics? you still have a woman playing against men, even if they have the same chromosomes...

if you force a fully transitioned male or female to compete in their birth assigned gender category, you force the problematic dynamics onto women.

a reply to: PorkChop96

the fact that some women are going to feel some sort of intimidation by a male whilst playing such a game, would give the male competitor an edge.

and this is why fully transitioned humans will not be forced to play in their birth gender...

You know, that would force women to play against men. None judges people by chromosomes but by appearances. the psychological intimidation is due to physical triggers, not chromosomes

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: AlienBorg

What is relevant is transwomen have been banned from chess as well as from several others sports. That is a blow to the trans ideology. Even chess has had enough with men trying to find their way in women's competitions.

this is right, and fully transitioned women no matter their chromosomes are not affected by the ban...

XY will still be competing against XX in chess, in the male and female categories. this mainly affects transvestites or those in transition but not finished. I think that's ok.

No, it doesn't say anything like this.
It's a straight ban for transwomen in female chess competitions.

Rugby, swimming, track and field — transgender women have been banned from international women's events in a growing number of sports. The latest to make that list is chess.

The International Chess Federation, known as FIDE, will effectively stop allowing transgender women from participating in women's competitions until "further analysis" can be made — which could take up to two years.

The organization will also remove some titles won by players who won in women's categories and later transitioned to male. It will also remove some titles won by transgender men. The new policies are slated to go into effect on Monday.

www.npr.org...#:~:text=World%20chess%20body%20bans%20transgender%20women%20from%20women's%2 0tournaments%20The,impact%22%20on%20a%20player's%20status.

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: PorkChop96

the fact that some women are going to feel some sort of intimidation by a male whilst playing such a game, would give the male competitor an edge.

and this is why fully transitioned humans will not be forced to play in their birth gender...

You know, that would force women to play against men. None judges people by chromosomes but by appearances. the psychological intimidation is due to physical triggers, not chromosomes

.


That's not true. But pure false claims and propaganda.

A number of sports have banned transwomen from participating in female competitions. There is no such a thing as a fully transitioned person biologically speaking.

The bans are real and are for what they call 'transwomen'

Chess has banned transwomen from female competitions.

British rowing has banned transwomen from female competitions.

World athletics has banned transwomen from female competitions

UK athletics has banned transwomen from female competitions

Swimming has banned transwomen from female competitions

British cycling has has banned transwomen from female competitions


All transwomen are banned from the above female sporting competitions. Not those who dress like women but everyone who is on drugs, blockers, hormones or has gone through surgeries.

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: AlienBorg

Women are surprisingly underrepresented in the chess world, representing less that 5% of registered tournament players worldwide and only 1% of the world's grand masters. In this paper it is argued that gender stereotypes are mainly responsible for the underperformance of women in chess. Forty-two male–female pairs, matched for ability, played two chess games via Internet. When players were unaware of the sex of opponent (control condition), females played approximately as well as males.When the gender stereotype was activated (experimental condition), women showed a drastic performance drop, but only when they were aware that they were playing against a male opponent. When they (falsely) believed to be playing against a woman, they performed as well as their male opponents. In addition, our findings suggest that women show lower chess-specific self-esteem and a weaker promotion focus, which are predictive of poorer chess performance. Copyright © 2007 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

ETA: Another one.

This paper aims to measure differences in risk behavior among expert chess players. The study employs a panel data set on international chess with 1.4 million games recorded over a period of 11 years. The structure of the data set allows us to use individual fixed-effect estimations to control for aspects such as innate ability as well as other characteristics of the players. Most notably, the data contains an objective measure of individual playing strength, the so-called Elo rating. In line with previous research, we find that women are more risk-averse than men. A novel finding is that males choose more aggressive strategies when playing against female opponents even though such strategies reduce their winning probability.

papers.ssrn.com...

Not only do women's behaviours change when playing against men, but men's behaviours also change when playing against women in face-to-face matches.

Chess is not a behavioural or psychological game. But how would you know? Have you ever played?

Men are by far better than women and have been always better than women in chess. The one study you try to reference is in direct contradiction to reality and the evidence so far.

True story: When I was very young and on a first date with a potential boyfriend, I suppose he wanted to show his superiority by inviting me to play a game of chess. I responded that I forgot how to play and he agreed to refresh me on the game. The first game I won and he was so angry that the date was over and I never heard from him again.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: AlienBorg

Women are surprisingly underrepresented in the chess world, representing less that 5% of registered tournament players worldwide and only 1% of the world's grand masters. In this paper it is argued that gender stereotypes are mainly responsible for the underperformance of women in chess. Forty-two male–female pairs, matched for ability, played two chess games via Internet. When players were unaware of the sex of opponent (control condition), females played approximately as well as males.When the gender stereotype was activated (experimental condition), women showed a drastic performance drop, but only when they were aware that they were playing against a male opponent. When they (falsely) believed to be playing against a woman, they performed as well as their male opponents. In addition, our findings suggest that women show lower chess-specific self-esteem and a weaker promotion focus, which are predictive of poorer chess performance. Copyright © 2007 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

ETA: Another one.

This paper aims to measure differences in risk behavior among expert chess players. The study employs a panel data set on international chess with 1.4 million games recorded over a period of 11 years. The structure of the data set allows us to use individual fixed-effect estimations to control for aspects such as innate ability as well as other characteristics of the players. Most notably, the data contains an objective measure of individual playing strength, the so-called Elo rating. In line with previous research, we find that women are more risk-averse than men. A novel finding is that males choose more aggressive strategies when playing against female opponents even though such strategies reduce their winning probability.

papers.ssrn.com...

Not only do women's behaviours change when playing against men, but men's behaviours also change when playing against women in face-to-face matches.

Chess is not a behavioural or psychological game. But how would you know? Have you ever played?

Men are by far better than women and have been always better than women in chess. The one study you try to reference is in direct contradiction to reality and the evidence so far.

True story: When I was very young and on a first date with a potential boyfriend, I suppose he wanted to show his superiority by inviting me to play a game of chess. I responded that I forgot how to play and he agreed to refresh me on the game. The first game I won and he was so angry that the date was over and I never heard from him again.

Ok but irrelevant.

The current top-rated female, Hou Yifan, is ranked 89th in the world, while the reigning women’s world champion Ju Wenjun is 404th

Here is the reality versus some fictional scenarios involving psychology and superstition. Women are can hardly make it in the top 100 best players and most will be well below this level. Clearly they're not doing well.

a reply to: AlienBorg

Legal woman play in women team, legal men play in mens team, legal trans can only play in their birth assigned gender or in mixed.

A fully transitioned man can become a legal women and would then have to play in womens team.

That's what it is, despite your fear driven fantasies....

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: AlienBorg

Women are surprisingly underrepresented in the chess world, representing less that 5% of registered tournament players worldwide and only 1% of the world's grand masters. In this paper it is argued that gender stereotypes are mainly responsible for the underperformance of women in chess. Forty-two male–female pairs, matched for ability, played two chess games via Internet. When players were unaware of the sex of opponent (control condition), females played approximately as well as males.When the gender stereotype was activated (experimental condition), women showed a drastic performance drop, but only when they were aware that they were playing against a male opponent. When they (falsely) believed to be playing against a woman, they performed as well as their male opponents. In addition, our findings suggest that women show lower chess-specific self-esteem and a weaker promotion focus, which are predictive of poorer chess performance. Copyright © 2007 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

ETA: Another one.

This paper aims to measure differences in risk behavior among expert chess players. The study employs a panel data set on international chess with 1.4 million games recorded over a period of 11 years. The structure of the data set allows us to use individual fixed-effect estimations to control for aspects such as innate ability as well as other characteristics of the players. Most notably, the data contains an objective measure of individual playing strength, the so-called Elo rating. In line with previous research, we find that women are more risk-averse than men. A novel finding is that males choose more aggressive strategies when playing against female opponents even though such strategies reduce their winning probability.

papers.ssrn.com...

Not only do women's behaviours change when playing against men, but men's behaviours also change when playing against women in face-to-face matches.

Chess is not a behavioural or psychological game. But how would you know? Have you ever played?

Men are by far better than women and have been always better than women in chess. The one study you try to reference is in direct contradiction to reality and the evidence so far.

True story: When I was very young and on a first date with a potential boyfriend, I suppose he wanted to show his superiority by inviting me to play a game of chess. I responded that I forgot how to play and he agreed to refresh me on the game. The first game I won and he was so angry that the date was over and I never heard from him again.

Ok but irrelevant.

The current top-rated female, Hou Yifan, is ranked 89th in the world, while the reigning women’s world champion Ju Wenjun is 404th

Here is the reality versus some fictional scenarios involving psychology and superstition. Women are can hardly make it in the top 100 best players and most will be well below this level. Clearly they're not doing well.

Here's another observational study, whereas it appears women actually perform better than men. Maybe the upcoming younger generations of young women don't buy into the sterotypical BS and can play just as aggressively as men do. I would be interested in knowing more about the players' ages and attitudes to grow that theory.

Overall, men had a slightly higher average FIDE rating than women. But the game outcomes indicated that women won matches against men more often than would have been predicted given each player’s rating. This pattern held across the whole range of rating differences.

In other words, women outperformed expectations when playing a man compared with when they played against other women, a finding that runs contrary to the negative effect that one would expect as a result of stereotype threat.

The findings surprised Stafford and he notes that any conclusions are limited to the context of tournament chess and rated players.

“The news is good for female chess players, of whom there are exploding numbers. Although discrimination is real and pervasive, women playing tournament chess do not seem to be at a disadvantage when paired with men,” Stafford says.

www.psychologicalscience.org...

originally posted by: Terpene
a reply to: AlienBorg

Legal woman play in women team, legal men play in mens team, legal trans can only play in their birth assigned gender or in mixed.

A fully transitioned man can become a legal women and would then have to play in womens team.

That's what it is, despite your fear driven fantasies....

That's not true as transwomen have been banned in a number of sports. It's a straight ban for all transwomen and not for those who just dress like women and claim to be transwomen. You need to come to terms with the facts.

a reply to: AlienBorg

All transwomen are banned from the above female sporting competitions. Not those who dress like women but everyone who is on drugs, blockers, hormones or has gone through surgeries.

You are not mistaken, but once they become legal women they can't be banned anymore...

Where are the regulatory texts that proof your idea of what those bans mean.
They exist, and the wording therein will show you that chromosomes and biology is not a factor that is considered.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: AlienBorg

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: AlienBorg

Women are surprisingly underrepresented in the chess world, representing less that 5% of registered tournament players worldwide and only 1% of the world's grand masters. In this paper it is argued that gender stereotypes are mainly responsible for the underperformance of women in chess. Forty-two male–female pairs, matched for ability, played two chess games via Internet. When players were unaware of the sex of opponent (control condition), females played approximately as well as males.When the gender stereotype was activated (experimental condition), women showed a drastic performance drop, but only when they were aware that they were playing against a male opponent. When they (falsely) believed to be playing against a woman, they performed as well as their male opponents. In addition, our findings suggest that women show lower chess-specific self-esteem and a weaker promotion focus, which are predictive of poorer chess performance. Copyright © 2007 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

ETA: Another one.

This paper aims to measure differences in risk behavior among expert chess players. The study employs a panel data set on international chess with 1.4 million games recorded over a period of 11 years. The structure of the data set allows us to use individual fixed-effect estimations to control for aspects such as innate ability as well as other characteristics of the players. Most notably, the data contains an objective measure of individual playing strength, the so-called Elo rating. In line with previous research, we find that women are more risk-averse than men. A novel finding is that males choose more aggressive strategies when playing against female opponents even though such strategies reduce their winning probability.

papers.ssrn.com...

Not only do women's behaviours change when playing against men, but men's behaviours also change when playing against women in face-to-face matches.

Chess is not a behavioural or psychological game. But how would you know? Have you ever played?

Men are by far better than women and have been always better than women in chess. The one study you try to reference is in direct contradiction to reality and the evidence so far.

True story: When I was very young and on a first date with a potential boyfriend, I suppose he wanted to show his superiority by inviting me to play a game of chess. I responded that I forgot how to play and he agreed to refresh me on the game. The first game I won and he was so angry that the date was over and I never heard from him again.

Ok but irrelevant.

The current top-rated female, Hou Yifan, is ranked 89th in the world, while the reigning women’s world champion Ju Wenjun is 404th

Here is the reality versus some fictional scenarios involving psychology and superstition. Women are can hardly make it in the top 100 best players and most will be well below this level. Clearly they're not doing well.

Here's another observational study, whereas it appears women actually perform better than men. Maybe the upcoming younger generations of young women don't buy into the sterotypical BS and can play just as aggressively as men do. I would be interested in knowing more about the players' ages and attitudes to grow that theory.

Overall, men had a slightly higher average FIDE rating than women. But the game outcomes indicated that women won matches against men more often than would have been predicted given each player’s rating. This pattern held across the whole range of rating differences.

In other words, women outperformed expectations when playing a man compared with when they played against other women, a finding that runs contrary to the negative effect that one would expect as a result of stereotype threat.

The findings surprised Stafford and he notes that any conclusions are limited to the context of tournament chess and rated players.

“The news is good for female chess players, of whom there are exploding numbers. Although discrimination is real and pervasive, women playing tournament chess do not seem to be at a disadvantage when paired with men,” Stafford says.

www.psychologicalscience.org...

I am afraid reality is rather different to some studies that provide questionable conclusions..

The current top-rated female, Hou Yifan, is ranked 89th in the world, while the reigning women’s world champion Ju Wenjun is 404th

Just accept the facts.

a reply to: AlienBorg

Let's see the regulatory guidelines for those sports that proof your fantasy...

It can't be so hard, but of course they might proove you wrong, which I guess is why we never see some actual legal text that aren't some opinion piece.

Try and procure facts, instead of fiction.