6 year old shoots his teacher

a reply to: TheRedneck

The policeman in the video i posted seems to insist the shooting was "nonaccidental".

Wonder what the wee fellow has divulged that made him stress that point?

This may be getting trippier after all and be more than a simple accident.

www.cbsnews.com...

a reply to: SirHardHarry

I fail to understand how this example is relevant to a school. What am I missing?

I don't know...you're missing something though!

Maybe brush up on my responses throughout the thread...or better yet...read all the comments and you'll have a well rounded grasp on what is being discussed and why it's being discussed.

My comment was in response to how a person should take care of a firearm if it is in their possession! I used that particular example because people (like police officers) are in possession of a firearm as it directly corresponds with their duties. As such, when entering some facilities, they are not in possession of said firearm...and when not in possession of said firearm it is securely locked in safe place. An example of the only time that someone in possession of a firearm (a card carrying CCW) should not be in possession of a firearm. This was in response to another dumb comment about how a teacher should never leave their firearm (if teachers were armed/are armed) where anyone could get to it and that it should always be "locked"!

I shouldn't have to explain my explanation to such a smart fellow...I feel silly telling you something so obvious!

a reply to: jerryznv

Maybe brush up on my responses throughout the thread...or better yet...read all the comments and you'll have a well rounded grasp on what is being discussed and why it's being discussed.

But your reply was directed to my reply, so instead of directing me to read the entirety of the thread (which I will not do), best to just explain what you mean when you attempt to say something.

Oh. Now that I have the cliff notes of your correspondence to others in this thread leading up to you comment to me, thanks.

another dumb comment about how a teacher should never leave their firearm (if teachers were armed/are armed) where anyone could get to it and that it should always be "locked"!

If a CCW teacher did not have his or her firearm on one's person, in the event of a shooting it wouldn't really matter anyway, because they weren't "carrying" said firearm to stop said threat, now would it?

What's that about dumb comments, again?

I shouldn't have to explain my explanation to such a smart fellow...I feel silly telling you something so obvious!

Sometimes feeling silly is a good thing.

a reply to: SirHardHarry

If a CCW teacher did not have his or her firearm on one's person, in the event of a shooting it wouldn't really matter anyway, because they weren't "carrying" said firearm to stop said threat, now would it?

Wow...okay...

If a teacher has a CCW then they would have their firearm on them (they would be carrying it)! So yes it would really matter!

My example of the police officer also included an explanation as to why they didn't carry them into a jail (jail being the key word) and I used that example because it was the only time I could think of where a person would not have their firearm in their possession (while on duty)! We are discussing a school and teacher being armed...so yes in a school if and when a teacher is armed it should always be in their possession!

Clear now?

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: JinMI

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: chr0naut

You once posted that you left loaded firearms within access of your children because you trusted them. Several ATS posters have already suggested prosecution of the parents for just such irresponsibility. Why should we consider what you did any differently?

Once? Try several times, including in this thread.

Wanna prosecute me for that? Go for it. I'm already old. Just take one piece of advice when you do:

Bring body bags. A lot of body bags. One for me; the rest for you.

Our conversation is over.

TheRedneck

What do you think reckless and dangerous would actually look like?

Say, werent you ready to force and die over forcibly jabbing everyone not long ago?

While also working and being paid as a govt propagandist?

No, all those things are the product of your own imagination.

Fair enough.

So youre against peoples choice for vaccines and didnt work for the govt.

I have never suggested vaccination should be mandated. I don't work for the government, and I would much prefer that people were not misinformed in regards to vaccines, and they made their own informed choices.

I do concede that half of the population are of below average intelligence.

a reply to: RonnieJersey

She should be facing some type of criminal charge, no?
Allowing a child access to a loaded gun is serious, and I hope that teacher will be all right.

That's a scary slope you're slipping down.

Yes, allowing a child access to a loaded gun is serious but we don't know if she allowed access. It's one thing if the child was allowed to play with the gun, take the gun out of the home, or even if she was negligent enough to not care if the gun was in the child's possession. But kids are not as dumb as some seem to think. Even a 6-year-old can be conniving enough to, if they want it bad enough, sneak something out of a home once.

Even a gun safe has a key. Did the kid find the key, open the safe, and take the gun out? Would the mother have even known if that happened? When a gun is inside a safe, it can't be visually inspected easily; one has to open the safe to see it. On the other hand, if it is just sitting on a table by the front door when the kid left for school, that might rise to the level of criminal negligence.

There's a lot of nuance going on here, and we don't have many details yet.

Also, how far do we take this? If a child sneaks a steak knife into their backpack just before leaving for school, do we lock up the parents for "letting" them bring a knife to school? What if they stab another kid during the day? Do we lock up the parents for attempted murder? Accessory to murder? If a young child downloads some porn on their cell phone, is that going to make the parents responsible for distributing porn to a minor?

How far do we go? And what do we do when every parent in the nation is behind bars and it's still going on?

I have seen one story in memory where I thought the parents should face charges. One. That was a few months back where the parents bought their kid a gun (which was illegal in that state), claimed the gun for themselves to allow the purchase, but then claimed in social media it was the kids gun and allowed him frequent unsupervised access. That one crossed the line for me, but I'm not ready to say the same in this case. I want to see details first.

At worst, we should be talking about criminal negligence.



On another note, my hat is off to this teacher. I hope she recovers with no lasting effects. May God bless her for her heroism.

TheRedneck

a reply to: andy06shake

Thank you for that link. I had been wondering what kind of gun it was: a 9mm Taurus. Good gun... I like Taurus' quality and workmanship.

But now I have to wonder... a 9mm is not a .44 Magnum, but it still has some kick to it. The stock and trigger is made for an adult-sized hand as well. How did a 6-year-old shoot it with any accuracy at all? I have no doubt that they could physically pull the trigger back; but there's more to firing a gun than that.

The Taurus 9mm I am thinking of has a siding barrel which, if one's hand is improperly positioned, can and will cause a very deep, sudden cut when it recoils. I have had friends cut this way; much bloodflow ensued and there was pain involved. In order to "cock" the gun, the barrel must be pulled back into the firing position... easy for an adult, but for a 6-year-old? Also, the hand size issue... the hand has to wrap around the stock enough to not drop the gun, and at the same time the finger has to reach the trigger. Maybe this kid had comically oversized hands for his age? Finally, triggers do not come from the factory as "hair" triggers. That's aftermarket and involves carefully filing down components to decrease the force needed to pull it (I have personally made guns have "hair triggers" before). Factory guns do require a small amount of force to pull, but even that small amount of force is hard to apply if one's hand is too small for the gun or if the gun is held improperly.

Methinks there might be more to this story than we are getting told.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I few pieces to the puzzle do indeed appear to be missing or yet to be put in place.

My bet is the child has revealed something to Police or social services that may constitute evidence which could be used in a court of law.

Hence authorities may have chosen not to divulge certain information to the public.

Just a guess all the same.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Did a little searching. All those questions I raised about the gun itself had my head filled up.

It seems Taurus does make a "sub-compact" 9mm, the T.O.R.O. GX4. The trigger is knurled so it takes less contact with the trigger finger to activate (making it easier for small hands to use), the gun itself is smaller and lighter than a normal 9mm (making it require less strength to aim), but it still has the power of a 9mm. The kick is also reduced by making the slide operate over a longer distance, but that also brings up the fact that in order to cock it, the slide must be pulled back farther.

Bottom line, this gun could conceivably be fired by someone as young as 6 years old, but it likely would need a round in the chamber for that to happen. If a round were in the chamber, there would be no need to cock the gun; pull the trigger and it goes bang. For that reason, until a different model is indicated, I'm assuming for the time being that the gun was a T.O.R.O. GX4 9mm and that a round was already chambered.

Which means that gun could have gone off in the kid's backpack at any time.

It also means the mother was ignorant about the proper use of the gun. Let me explain in detail here:

Chambering a round in a semi-automatic pistol accomplishes the exact same thing that pulling the hammer back does on a revolver: it cocks the gun. Once cocked, the gun is ready to fire at the pull of the trigger. Many guns (pretty much all semi-autos) have a safety on them that locks the trigger so it cannot be pulled back when the safety is on. That safety is usually a button that operates from either side or a small lever.

When stored, a semi-auto should NEVER have a round chambered! Now, any time the gun is fired, as long as there are rounds in the magazine, the spent round is automatically ejected and a new round is chambered. That's why it is called "semi-automatic"; the reloading and cocking is accomplished automatically so another round can be quickly fired if needed. When stored, even if stored in a position to allow ready access, one should always follow the following procedure before storing the gun:

• Remove the magazine.
  
• Pull the slide completely back to eject the chambered round. It should catch as the magazine is removed.
  
• Pull back again and pull the trigger while holding the slide. This releases the slide and allows it to be returned to it's normal position.
  
• Slowly allow the slide to move forward while holding the trigger.
  
• Replace the magazine.

This way the chamber is empty and the gun cannot be fired by any means until cocked. If a need to fire the gun suddenly arises, it requires a simple pull back and release on the slide to re-cock it; that takes less than a second, but it is also not an action that can be accomplished by accident.

The safety should also always be on unless one is ready to fire. However, it is possible for even a safety switch to inadvertently be switched off. In this case, the safety was obviously off when the gun was fired, but it might have been on when it was taken. Jostling around in a backpack can switch a safety switch off. That's why one should never leave a chambered live round in a stored gun. The safety switch is there for when one is actively using the gun but there is a break in the "action" or as an additional safeguard... whenever the gun is cocked, one should have to cock it and then switch off the safety in order to fire. For all storage (read: whenever the gun is not intended to be fired right away), the surest way to ensure safety is always to not leave a live round chambered.

This then goes back to the education issue. The mother (discounting for the moment malicious intent) obviously was not familiar with the gun. She should have known how to properly store the gun after firing. Obviously she did not. As a result, a teacher and a hero is fighting for her life today.

One more thing this tells me. If, indeed, that gun was a Taurus T.O.R.O. GX4 9mm, that thing retails for almost $500. That is an expensive 9mm! A cheap 9mm can be picked up in a pawn shop for as low as $200. That tells me this was not a poor family, but someone who did have means to some extent. It being a newer model gun also means it wasn't a dirt-cheap used one either... she likely bought this thing brand new. They haven't been available very long.

So this was not a "ghetto" shooting. It was more likely a middle-class family this kid came from.

TheRedneck

a reply to: andy06shake

I did a little research I posted just above that you might find interesting.

Obviously conjecture at this time, but I think it is reasonable conjecture. It fits the facts as we know then at this time.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck



We need to hear what the teacher has to say transpired so we can get an adult's account of the situation.

Something smells fishy though or does not seem to be sitting right.

I'm surprised the mother of the child has not been tracked down for comment, especially since the weapon seems to have belonged to her.

a reply to: andy06shake

With the present public outrage over this shooting, the mother likely has a team of lawyers telling her to not say a damn syllable... if she's smart.

Our best bet is with the teacher. Even if the mother talks, she's the one accused... she's not going to throw herself (and likely her child) on her own sword.

I would love to hear what the kid says... but that is doubtful since he's a minor. And maybe, in the end, that's best. I doubt he knew that he was doing something so terrible, even if it wasn't "accidental." It sounds like he just didn't want to let the teacher have his gun. He's six years old.

TheRedneck

You mean the mother hasn't yet said, 'But my son's a good boy'?

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: tanstaafl

The thing is, you can't always control the influence others have on your children. That's where the village comes in. They will influence your children, like it or not, some in very minor ways and others in perhaps major ways. They have a responsibility to conduct themselves in a manner that does not influence your children in a negative way.

We seem to be in complete agreement then and if this is what the others meant/intended, we are as well.

That said, I am bound and determined to be extremely picky about who I allow into the sphere of influence of my kids, which is why I will never send them to public schools, unless/until I'm able to get them into one of the Hillsdale College curriculum based Charter schools, which we are trying to do now.

That said, my wife is actually starting to enjoy homeschooling them, so we may just end up sticking with that.

a reply to: AOx6179

teacher wanted him to wear dresses and change into a girl?

a reply to: cappie

The teacher noticed the child had a gun by the looks of things, got shot whilst trying to take it away, by accident or otherwise, and then went on to scream at the other children to get out of the area so they were safe.

The teacher is a hero and should be treated accordingly.

If she had not intervened the little lad could have gone on to hurt other children or himself with the gun.

Show some respect ffs.

originally posted by: iwanttobelieve70
a reply to: tanstaafl
I see your kid with a gun pointing it at mine and I hit him to make him drop it am I paying hell?

Did I say anything even remotely suggesting any such thing?

No. So, there is that.

If I see your kid pointing a gun at himself I should mind my own business because I don’t want to pay hell?

Dangerous to use language like that.

I agree, so why are you doing it?

a reply to: AOx6179

i tell you what...
i been shooting guns since i could hold them..
excellent marksman by age seven...yes,,..SEVEN

in boy scouts a few years, and legally hunting since 12
we used to bring big boot knives AND pocket knives
to school nearly EVERYDAY,,, boys were expected to carry knives
we lived in the woods afterall..

my mom went to school in a 1 room, 1 teacher schoolhouse
with 50-60 screaming children grades 1 through 9 mixed
almost every boy brought traps, knives, and rifles to school so they
could hunt on the way home from school... (they walked)
maybe a fist fight now n then, but NEVER A SHOOTING

i blasted through 500 rounds in a few hours...often
and NOT ONCE did i or anyone we knew EVER got shot..
we would get off school and everyone grabbed a gun and go shooting
NEVER ANY PARENTAL SUPERVISION (except on weekends )
our guns and ammo were ALWAYS within reach and easy to find

i remember roaming the house and backyard playing cowboy
the day my dad brought home our lever-action 30-30 deer rifle
i wasnt dumb enough to load it for that... i was EIGHT
my dad let me play with it because i wasnt dumb enough
to shoot anyone.. and i RESPECTED GUNS..

NOBODY EVEN POINTED A GUN AT ANYONE.
LOADED OR NOT, JOKING OR NOT....
YOU DID NOT DO # LIKE THAT...

our fathers would have BEAT OUR ASS HARD