The Myth of Herd Immunity to SARS-CoV-2

a reply to: underpass61

Emergency acts can't just be pushed on people the act itself needs to be approved, and then the vaccines themselves need to be approved by the FDA. It's two separate instances within the same sphere.

Either way, was there a pandemic or not? Were people dying and getting sick from a virus or not? If yes, then wouldn't an emergency act of some sort be called for?

The double standard of the OTT libertarian thinking people astounds me. Would you have just let the virus rip thorugh the population with no measures at all? With no end in sight? Just let the varients work its way through people over and over?

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

Please read this and let me know what they mean by herd immunity.

www.news18.com...

Clearly the author and the article are confusing what herd immunity is.

Let's say India has herd immunity. It means that those who are either vaccinated or have been infected and recovered can no longer be infected again with new emerging variants. Hence there is also no need for vaccinations for them.

Have infections dissapeared in India?
Have vaccinations stopped?



Today's article


timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

India may see rise in Covid cases in January

However the infections have not stopped and neither the vaccinations have stopped. If there was herd immunity those vaccinated or infected cannot get re-infected.

You are disagreeing with Vinay K Nandicoori, Director CCMB (a top official of CSIR- Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB)), the Mayo Clinic doctors, and immunologists who say it's not written in stone that herd immunity can not be achieved, and you go so far as to describe these experts as being confused. Are you an immunologist who can push back on these experts?

Another country reached herd immunity in 2021.

Several Pacific islands, like Guam, have reached that target already among their adult population.

Nauru, one of the smallest countries in the world, has declared itself 90 per cent fully vaccinated.

Others are fast approaching those targets, with the Federated States of Micronesia (FSM) making vaccines compulsory for all adults.

Its president David Panuelo told the ABC he hoped FSM would "reach herd immunity by Christmas".

www.abc.net.au...

However the article does go on to explain how herd immunity may not be achieved.

Many manufacturers already have variant-specific vaccines in clinical trials for booster shots down the track.

Fiona Russell from the Asia Pacific Health Research Group at the Murdoch Children's Research Institute (MCRI) said countries should "move on" from vaccination targets linked to herd immunity.

"We know that's not going to happen, that is extremely unlikely to happen, and this will be an endemic virus," Dr Russell said.

Dr Tukuitonga said herd immunity was not a "silver bullet".

"In fact, you don't know if you have herd immunity until there is an outbreak," Dr Tukuitonga said.

"I emphasise the unpredictability of the Delta variant … we don't really know how it's going to behave."

So, again, it's unclear whether herd immunity can or can not be achieved.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

Please read this and let me know what they mean by herd immunity.

www.news18.com...

Clearly the author and the article are confusing what herd immunity is.

Let's say India has herd immunity. It means that those who are either vaccinated or have been infected and recovered can no longer be infected again with new emerging variants. Hence there is also no need for vaccinations for them.

Have infections dissapeared in India?
Have vaccinations stopped?



Today's article


timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

India may see rise in Covid cases in January

However the infections have not stopped and neither the vaccinations have stopped. If there was herd immunity those vaccinated or infected cannot get re-infected.

You are disagreeing with Vinay K Nandicoori, Director CCMB (a top official of CSIR- Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB)), the Mayo Clinic doctors, and immunologists who say it's not written in stone that herd immunity can not be achieved, and you go so far as to describe these experts as being confused. Are you an immunologist who can push back on these experts?

It's still bad reporting and appeals to authority don't change the facts.

Look at the definition of herd immunity and ask yourself: If there is herd immunity in India or anywhere else have the infections stopped? Have the vaccinations stopped? Has transmission and infection of the virus stopped?

The answer is clear.

If you take a look at my links you would see that several scientists have come to the conclusion herd immunity isn't possible long time ago. All my links feature prominent scientists.

But you don't need any links. You need common sense and you don't have to be an immunologist. Although if you have some knowledge helps. In this case I am afraid you don't you dont even understand the definition of herd immunity.

You seem to have completely disregarded the definition of herd immunity and the several links I gave you from different sources.


The two sources you gave me yesterday said nothing about herd immunity and one of them was actually saying that herd immunity cannot be achieved...

It's not even a debate.

a reply to: quintessentone

This matter has been settled. There is no herd immunity.

originally posted by: Asmodeus3
a reply to: quintessentone

This matter has been settled. There is no herd immunity.

That remains to be seen with the next round of variants and how we handle keeping up with new boosters and getting the majority of a population vax'd.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3
a reply to: quintessentone

This matter has been settled. There is no herd immunity.

That remains to be seen with the next round of variants and how we handle keeping up with new boosters and getting the majority of a population vax'd.

It's settled. Boosters don't prevent transmission or infection. Hence no herd immunity. Even natural immunity cannot prevent a new infection.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: underpass61

Emergency acts can't just be pushed on people

You're joking right?

a reply to: underpass61

They need to be approved by a senate, congress, president, etc. For a reason. They can't just be piled onto people for no reason.

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3
a reply to: quintessentone

This matter has been settled. There is no herd immunity.

It's settled. Boosters or not don't prevent transmission or infection. Hence no herd immunity.

That remains to be seen with the next round of variants and how we handle keeping up with new boosters and getting the majority of a population vax'd.

This should not be simplified, here is a good explanation of what problems we face trying to protect populations. The read is quite complex, but understandable for a layperson, IMO.

Other problems arise because herd immunity is not the same as biologic (immunologic) immunity; individuals protected only by indirect herd effects remain fully susceptible to infection, should they ever be exposed. This has advantages, in protecting individuals with contraindications to vaccination or those who for other reasons miss vaccination, but it also has its disadvantages. Measles and mumps outbreaks among university students, and pertussis in adults, are among examples of the consequences of accumulation of susceptible individuals who have not been protected by vaccination, and escaped infection because of a herd immunity effect earlier in their lives [36]. Sometimes infection later in life causes more serious disease, a particular problem with rubella, which has its most severe consequences in the first trimester of pregnancy. In at least one instance, herd immunity and associated delays in infection of unvaccinated individuals led to increased congenital rubella syndrome [37]. This means that there is a need for immunization programs to maintain high vaccine coverage, together with surveillance and outbreak response capabilities, as numbers of susceptible individuals accumulate in older age groups. Herd immunity implies a lasting programmatic responsibility to the public.

academic.oup.com...

And with Covid-19 variants we need immunization programs to maintain high vaccine coverage along with true data, which is a problem if you look at how China records deaths of people having Covid, but death is recorded as the underlying condition.

a reply to: strongfp

Well Covid is a disease, so we would expect it to kill people...

We were told from day one that these "vaccines" were safe and 99% effective. They were not effective at stopping infection, or transmission, but seemingly very effective at giving people all kinds of horrible side effects including sudden death.

Not to mention that VAERS, by most estimates is underreporting from 90 to 97%. So let's be generous, and say 20% of the actual deaths from the vaxxines are reported. That would mean that we've had somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 million serious adverse reactions, and north of 300k deaths attributable to these poisons they call vaccines, and we're only a year in to the boosters.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3
a reply to: quintessentone

This matter has been settled. There is no herd immunity.

It's settled. Boosters or not don't prevent transmission or infection. Hence no herd immunity.

That remains to be seen with the next round of variants and how we handle keeping up with new boosters and getting the majority of a population vax'd.

This should not be simplified, here is a good explanation of what problems we face trying to protect populations. The read is quite complex, but understandable for a layperson, IMO.

Other problems arise because herd immunity is not the same as biologic (immunologic) immunity; individuals protected only by indirect herd effects remain fully susceptible to infection, should they ever be exposed. This has advantages, in protecting individuals with contraindications to vaccination or those who for other reasons miss vaccination, but it also has its disadvantages. Measles and mumps outbreaks among university students, and pertussis in adults, are among examples of the consequences of accumulation of susceptible individuals who have not been protected by vaccination, and escaped infection because of a herd immunity effect earlier in their lives [36]. Sometimes infection later in life causes more serious disease, a particular problem with rubella, which has its most severe consequences in the first trimester of pregnancy. In at least one instance, herd immunity and associated delays in infection of unvaccinated individuals led to increased congenital rubella syndrome [37]. This means that there is a need for immunization programs to maintain high vaccine coverage, together with surveillance and outbreak response capabilities, as numbers of susceptible individuals accumulate in older age groups. Herd immunity implies a lasting programmatic responsibility to the public.

academic.oup.com...

And with Covid-19 variants we need immunization programs to maintain high vaccine coverage along with true data, which is a problem if you look at how China records deaths of people having Covid, but death is recorded as the underlying condition.

I don't think most of us need anything else other than getting on with our lives. People under the age of 50 are who are healthy are in very low risk from Covid.

Herd immunity cannot be achieved but the protection most of us have is more than enough. Mine is the best form of protection: SARS-CoV-2 infection.

It has served me really well.

Once you recover from primary infection there are effectively no chances you get sick or die due to Covid from other variants of SARS-CoV-2

a reply to: MaxxAction

We were told? We were told they would help stop transmission, we were told they were safe and effective, no one said they were bullet proof, when you went to get a shot they even have a warning of myocarditis, or other adverse affects, you're literally just taking a small pocket of instances and running with it and filling the holes in your theory with whatever you can grasp at.

The rest of your post is just assumptions, someone posted in here that there's what 33k reported VAERS situations? Did you know over 12.5 billion shots have been given?
But let me guess... "they" are severely unreporting...

I get people want answers, and want to hold humans accountable for something because they've been personally impacted by this, we all have every person on the planet has been affected by this, but to think there's some mass global connected conspiracy to get everyone to take death jabs or whatever is absurd, the world elite can barely keep supply chains open let alone control every person on the planet. But wanna know what did hit almost every person on the planet and will one day? Covid 19. A virus,

a reply to: Asmodeus3

We will see if the variants mutate into something that can evade our Omincron/Delta immune system defenses, so far so good.

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

We will see if the variants mutate into something that can evade our Omincron/Delta immune system defenses, so far so good.

The new variants are always able to infect more and more individuals. That's why there is no herd immunity

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: MaxxAction

We were told? We were told they would help stop transmission, we were told they were safe and effective, no one said they were bullet proof, when you went to get a shot they even have a warning of myocarditis, or other adverse affects, you're literally just taking a small pocket of instances and running with it and filling the holes in your theory with whatever you can grasp at.

The rest of your post is just assumptions, someone posted in here that there's what 33k reported VAERS situations? Did you know over 12.5 billion shots have been given?
But let me guess... "they" are severely unreporting...

I get people want answers, and want to hold humans accountable for something because they've been personally impacted by this, we all have every person on the planet has been affected by this, but to think there's some mass global connected conspiracy to get everyone to take death jabs or whatever is absurd, the world elite can barely keep supply chains open let alone control every person on the planet. But wanna know what did hit almost every person on the planet and will one day? Covid 19. A virus,

Vaccines don't prevent transmission or infection and don't significantly reduce them. Hence herd immunity is not possible.

Persons under the age of 50 who are healthy are in no need of these products. Simple.

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

We will see if the variants mutate into something that can evade our Omincron/Delta immune system defenses, so far so good.

The new variants are always able to infect more and more individuals. That's why there is no herd immunity

The vaccines and new boosters is what keeps us close to herd immunity, so far.

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: MaxxAction

We were told? We were told they would help stop transmission, we were told they were safe and effective, no one said they were bullet proof, when you went to get a shot they even have a warning of myocarditis, or other adverse affects, you're literally just taking a small pocket of instances and running with it and filling the holes in your theory with whatever you can grasp at.

The rest of your post is just assumptions, someone posted in here that there's what 33k reported VAERS situations? Did you know over 12.5 billion shots have been given?
But let me guess... "they" are severely unreporting...

I get people want answers, and want to hold humans accountable for something because they've been personally impacted by this, we all have every person on the planet has been affected by this, but to think there's some mass global connected conspiracy to get everyone to take death jabs or whatever is absurd, the world elite can barely keep supply chains open let alone control every person on the planet. But wanna know what did hit almost every person on the planet and will one day? Covid 19. A virus,

Vaccines don't prevent transmission or infection and don't significantly reduce them. Hence herd immunity is not possible.

Persons under the age of 50 who are healthy are in no need of these products. Simple.

Nope...

All rates are relative to the 18 to 29 years age group. This group was selected as the reference group because it has accounted for the largest cumulative number of COVID-19 cases compared to other age groups. Sample interpretation: Compared with ages 18 to 29 years, the rate of death is 3.5 times higher in ages 30 to 39 years, and 350 times higher in those who are ages 85 years and older.

www.cdc.gov...

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

We will see if the variants mutate into something that can evade our Omincron/Delta immune system defenses, so far so good.

The new variants are always able to infect more and more individuals. That's why there is no herd immunity

The vaccines and new boosters is what keeps us close to herd immunity, so far.

I don't think you understand what herd immunity is and how it is achieved.

Herd immunity now seems impossible. Welcome to the age of Covid reinfection

The virus is now embedded in our world. But there are steps we can take to keep it at bay while we continue to live our lives

Prof Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

We will see if the variants mutate into something that can evade our Omincron/Delta immune system defenses, so far so good.

The new variants are always able to infect more and more individuals. That's why there is no herd immunity

The vaccines and new boosters is what keeps us close to herd immunity, so far.

I don't think you understand what herd immunity is and how it is achieved.

Herd immunity now seems impossible. Welcome to the age of Covid reinfection

The virus is now embedded in our world. But there are steps we can take to keep it at bay while we continue to live our lives

Prof Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

I don't think you understand how herd immunity is somewhat achieved through vaccinations and other measures.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

We will see if the variants mutate into something that can evade our Omincron/Delta immune system defenses, so far so good.

The new variants are always able to infect more and more individuals. That's why there is no herd immunity

The vaccines and new boosters is what keeps us close to herd immunity, so far.

I don't think you understand what herd immunity is and how it is achieved.

Herd immunity now seems impossible. Welcome to the age of Covid reinfection

The virus is now embedded in our world. But there are steps we can take to keep it at bay while we continue to live our lives

Prof Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh

I don't think you understand how herd immunity is somewhat achieved through vaccinations and other measures.

Me? No that's not true and we both know it.

Herd immunity now seems impossible. Welcome to the age of Covid reinfection

The virus is now embedded in our world. But there are steps we can take to keep it at bay while we continue to live our lives

'Prof Devi Sridhar is chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh'

And of course anyone with the most basic knowledge and understanding of what herd immunity is will agree with Professor Devi Sridhar.