The Myth of Herd Immunity to SARS-CoV-2

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

My understanding of herd immunity is from reading sources such as these. Where do you get your data?

This is how I understand herd immunity. High fatality rates without treatment.

"Although the lethality of the plague is very high without treatment it remains likely that specific individuals are protected from, or more susceptible to, severe disease through polymorphism in the determinants of natural immunity," the study said.

"In this case, any change in allele frequencies that occurred during a given epidemic crisis could be evident as genetic adaptation and detectable in modern day individuals."

Norman noted in the release that natural selection likely drove these gene changes in future generations.

www.ctvnews.ca...

www.cnbc.com...

Whether or not COVID-19 can be conquered through herd immunity is an open question, according to experts.

www.hsph.harvard.edu...

It's still an open question, according to experts.

See the opening page why there could be no herd immunity to SARS-CoV-2.

What you have said has nothing much to do with the definition of herd immunity.

The data I usually provide comes from research papers, either pre-prints or peer-reviewed, scientific articles online, newspapers, etc.

But the definition of herd immunity is basic knowledge I suppose. The concept has been abandoned for the case of SARS-CoV-2

The experts say it's still an open question.

It isn't. See my sources above.

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

My understanding of herd immunity is from reading sources such as these. Where do you get your data?

This is how I understand herd immunity. High fatality rates without treatment.

"Although the lethality of the plague is very high without treatment it remains likely that specific individuals are protected from, or more susceptible to, severe disease through polymorphism in the determinants of natural immunity," the study said.

"In this case, any change in allele frequencies that occurred during a given epidemic crisis could be evident as genetic adaptation and detectable in modern day individuals."

Norman noted in the release that natural selection likely drove these gene changes in future generations.

www.ctvnews.ca...

www.cnbc.com...

Whether or not COVID-19 can be conquered through herd immunity is an open question, according to experts.

www.hsph.harvard.edu...

It's still an open question, according to experts.

See the opening page why there could be no herd immunity to SARS-CoV-2.

What you have said has nothing much to do with the definition of herd immunity.

The data I usually provide comes from research papers, either pre-prints or peer-reviewed, scientific articles online, newspapers, etc.

But the definition of herd immunity is basic knowledge I suppose. The concept has been abandoned for the case of SARS-CoV-2

The experts say it's still an open question.

It isn't. See my sources above.

My sources disagree with your sources.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

My understanding of herd immunity is from reading sources such as these. Where do you get your data?

This is how I understand herd immunity. High fatality rates without treatment.

"Although the lethality of the plague is very high without treatment it remains likely that specific individuals are protected from, or more susceptible to, severe disease through polymorphism in the determinants of natural immunity," the study said.

"In this case, any change in allele frequencies that occurred during a given epidemic crisis could be evident as genetic adaptation and detectable in modern day individuals."

Norman noted in the release that natural selection likely drove these gene changes in future generations.

www.ctvnews.ca...

www.cnbc.com...

Whether or not COVID-19 can be conquered through herd immunity is an open question, according to experts.

www.hsph.harvard.edu...

It's still an open question, according to experts.

See the opening page why there could be no herd immunity to SARS-CoV-2.

What you have said has nothing much to do with the definition of herd immunity.

The data I usually provide comes from research papers, either pre-prints or peer-reviewed, scientific articles online, newspapers, etc.

But the definition of herd immunity is basic knowledge I suppose. The concept has been abandoned for the case of SARS-CoV-2

The experts say it's still an open question.

It isn't. See my sources above.

My sources disagree with your sources.

You don't need a source for this. Common sense will do. Herd immunity cannot be achieved and I have explained to you why. You don't understand what herd immunity is, first of all.

Also your first source says nothing about herd immunity

It's about the Bubonic plague...

Bubonic plague had long-term effect on human immunity, study suggests

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

My understanding of herd immunity is from reading sources such as these. Where do you get your data?

This is how I understand herd immunity. High fatality rates without treatment.

"Although the lethality of the plague is very high without treatment it remains likely that specific individuals are protected from, or more susceptible to, severe disease through polymorphism in the determinants of natural immunity," the study said.

"In this case, any change in allele frequencies that occurred during a given epidemic crisis could be evident as genetic adaptation and detectable in modern day individuals."

Norman noted in the release that natural selection likely drove these gene changes in future generations.

www.ctvnews.ca...

www.cnbc.com...

Whether or not COVID-19 can be conquered through herd immunity is an open question, according to experts.

www.hsph.harvard.edu...

It's still an open question, according to experts.

See the opening page why there could be no herd immunity to SARS-CoV-2.

What you have said has nothing much to do with the definition of herd immunity.

The data I usually provide comes from research papers, either pre-prints or peer-reviewed, scientific articles online, newspapers, etc.

But the definition of herd immunity is basic knowledge I suppose. The concept has been abandoned for the case of SARS-CoV-2

The experts say it's still an open question.

It isn't. See my sources above.

My sources disagree with your sources.

You don't need a source for this. Common sense will do. Herd immunity cannot be achieved and I have explained to you why. You don't understand what herd immunity is, first of all.

I most certainly do understand. But as for herd immunity with Covid-19 the experts say it is unclear at this point in time.

Given the challenges, it's unclear if herd immunity to the virus that causes COVID-19 will be reached. However, the number of fully vaccinated adults continues to rise. In addition, more than 80 million people in the U.S. have had confirmed infections with the COVID-19 virus — though, again, it's not clear how long immunity lasts after infection.

Even if it isn't currently possible to stop transmission of the COVID-19 virus, the FDA-approved and FDA-authorized COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective at protecting against severe illness requiring hospitalization and death due to COVID-19. The vaccines are allowing people to better be able to live with the virus.

www.mayoclinic.org...

Mayo clinic! It's unclear!

a reply to: quintessentone

Your second source says the following

Covid-19 antibodies in Spain’s population “are insufficient to provide herd immunity,” a new study has claimed, despite the country being one of the worst-affected by the pandemic.

And it's an article from 2020 when it was still thought that herd immunity may be possible.
However the article says the opposite i.e that antibodies are insufficient to provide herd immunity.

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone

originally posted by: Asmodeus3

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

My understanding of herd immunity is from reading sources such as these. Where do you get your data?

This is how I understand herd immunity. High fatality rates without treatment.

"Although the lethality of the plague is very high without treatment it remains likely that specific individuals are protected from, or more susceptible to, severe disease through polymorphism in the determinants of natural immunity," the study said.

"In this case, any change in allele frequencies that occurred during a given epidemic crisis could be evident as genetic adaptation and detectable in modern day individuals."

Norman noted in the release that natural selection likely drove these gene changes in future generations.

www.ctvnews.ca...

www.cnbc.com...

Whether or not COVID-19 can be conquered through herd immunity is an open question, according to experts.

www.hsph.harvard.edu...

It's still an open question, according to experts.

See the opening page why there could be no herd immunity to SARS-CoV-2.

What you have said has nothing much to do with the definition of herd immunity.

The data I usually provide comes from research papers, either pre-prints or peer-reviewed, scientific articles online, newspapers, etc.

But the definition of herd immunity is basic knowledge I suppose. The concept has been abandoned for the case of SARS-CoV-2

The experts say it's still an open question.

It isn't. See my sources above.

My sources disagree with your sources.

You don't need a source for this. Common sense will do. Herd immunity cannot be achieved and I have explained to you why. You don't understand what herd immunity is, first of all.

I most certainly do understand. But as for herd immunity with Covid-19 the experts say it is unclear at this point in time.

Given the challenges, it's unclear if herd immunity to the virus that causes COVID-19 will be reached. However, the number of fully vaccinated adults continues to rise. In addition, more than 80 million people in the U.S. have had confirmed infections with the COVID-19 virus — though, again, it's not clear how long immunity lasts after infection.

Even if it isn't currently possible to stop transmission of the COVID-19 virus, the FDA-approved and FDA-authorized COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective at protecting against severe illness requiring hospitalization and death due to COVID-19. The vaccines are allowing people to better be able to live with the virus.

www.mayoclinic.org...

Mayo clinic! It's unclear!

Page not found but still herd immunity is impossible for the reasons I told you. The idea of herd immunity has been abandoned long time ago. You need to check and read the literature.

a reply to: quintessentone

No. At this point in time it is very clear

Those Who Believe in Herd Immunity Cannot Do the Math.

COVID-19 mutations are evading our immunity and at the same time our immunity is waning. Herd immunity to disease and the eradication of SARS-CoV-2 is no longer possible.

The developer of the AstraZeneca shot says the Delta variant has made herd immunity impossible because vaccinated people can still transmit the virus

Herd immunity now seems impossible. Welcome to the age of Covid reinfection

The virus is now embedded in our world. But there are steps we can take to keep it at bay while we continue to live our lives

Take a look at the above from the OP. Use common sense too.

a reply to: Asmodeus3

Okay, read this and tell me what they are referring to when they say herd immunity.

www.news18.com...

a reply to: quintessentone

Basic definition from Wikipedia

Herd immunity is a form of indirect protection that applies only to contagious diseases. It occurs when a sufficient percentage of a population has become immune to an infection, whether through previous infections or vaccination, thereby reducing the likelihood of infection for individuals who lack immunity

Are we immune to infections from Covid variants?
Can vaccines prevent transmission and infection?
Can natural immunity prevent further infections?

The answer is NO to every single question. Hence herd immunity is impossible by definition.

a reply to: Asmodeus3

Please read this and let me know what they mean by herd immunity.

www.news18.com...

originally posted by: quintessentone
a reply to: Asmodeus3

Please read this and let me know what they mean by herd immunity.

www.news18.com...

Clearly the author and the article are confusing what herd immunity is.

Let's say India has herd immunity. It means that those who are either vaccinated or have been infected and recovered can no longer be infected again with new emerging variants. Hence there is also no need for vaccinations for them.

Have infections dissapeared in India?
Have vaccinations stopped?



Today's article


timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

India may see rise in Covid cases in January

However the infections have not stopped and neither the vaccinations have stopped. If there was herd immunity those vaccinated or infected cannot get re-infected.

a reply to: quintessentone

www.nature.com...#:~:text=The%20key%20to%20herd%20immunity,contract%20and%20spread%20the%20virus.

Five reasons why COVID herd immunity is probably impossible

Herd immunity is only relevant if we have a transmission-blocking vaccine.

Obviously you don't need the above articles to understand for this type of virus we can't have herd immunity.

a reply to: underpass61

Every vaccine when new is experimental... how about the long term affects of covid on people's cardiovascular systems and lung?

a reply to: strongfp
Every new vaccine PRIOR to covid 19 went through years-long trials to earn approval. Experiments complete before being unleashed on the public.

These jabs?
NOPE

originally posted by: underpass61
a reply to: strongfp
Every new vaccine PRIOR to covid 19 went through years-long trials to earn approval. Experiments complete before being unleashed on the public.

These jabs?
NOPE

This isn't understood by many out there. They believe testing is just injecting people and trying to get an immune response. They can't understand what testing means just as they fail to understand why herd immunity means and how it is achieved. If you take a look at my conversations in this page you will clearly see what is going on. Members seem to engage in conversations without knowledge of the basic definitions.

a reply to: Asmodeus3

Great thread! The false immunity claims were like the small print in a loan advert…

‘Hey folks, look here, free money! A great deal, pay nothing for a year…’

And in the small print

‘After a year pay 10x more interest than regular loans and your house, job and life are equity we will seize’

But for a anyone with an modicum of critical thinking will see that pharma’s falsehoods has nullified the rationale for taking the vaccine:

1) If they lied about this, then what else are they lying about?

2) If they simply didn’t know, then what else don’t they know yet?

They’ve made it a bad bet

a reply to: underpass61

This is not true at all. The polio vaccine went through many failed attempts with public distribution and even to this fay still isn't 100% effective and even causes vaccine induced outbreaks, we know it's best effective when people are young, like most vaccines.

When people think vaccines go through this rigorous closed circuit trials for years and years, they're misinformed or naive to think that. You need to expose vaccines to large groups of people.

The Spanish flu took years of experimental vaccines to get right. Why is this vaccine any different to those?

To ask again, what's the long term affects of covid on the cardiovascular system and lungs?

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: underpass61

This is not true at all. The polio vaccine went through many failed attempts with public distribution and even to this fay still isn't 100% effective and even causes vaccine induced outbreaks, we know it's best effective when people are young, like most vaccines.

When people think vaccines go through this rigorous closed circuit trials for years and years, they're misinformed or naive to think that. You need to expose vaccines to large groups of people.

The Spanish flu took years of experimental vaccines to get right. Why is this vaccine any different to those?

To ask again, what's the long term affects of covid on the cardiovascular system and lungs?

www.cnn.com...


Past vaccine disasters show why rushing a coronavirus vaccine now would be 'colossally stupid'

Vaccine experts are warning the federal government against rushing out a coronavirus vaccine before testing has shown it's both safe and effective. Decades of history show why they're right

Has the safety and effectiveness of these vaccines been established?

Do you know the short, medium, and long term effects of these products? The benefit to risk ratio in all age groups?

Can the vaccines stop transmission and infection? Can they be used so herd immunity can be achieved?

The answer to all the above questions is NO. And yes it takes years and not a few months for the clinical phase trials to be completed.

a reply to: Asmodeus3

Coronavirus vaccines and mRNA technology has been in the works since the 1970s! This isn't some new whipped up in a college lab experiment.
These vaccines have been in serious development since 2003, we have had a few endemic similar viruses to work with.

When every major pharmaceutical company on the planet starts to chase the same goal it'll get done.
And yes we know the side effects of vaccines, and people need to stop listening to political leaders for medical advice and using they're misinformation to the public as a weapon against the medical community.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: Asmodeus3

Coronavirus vaccines and mRNA technology has been in the works since the 1970s! This isn't some new whipped up in a college lab experiment.
These vaccines have been in serious development since 2003, we have had a few endemic similar viruses to work with.

When every major pharmaceutical company on the planet starts to chase the same goal it'll get done.
And yes we know the side effects of vaccines, and people need to stop listening to political leaders for medical advice and using they're misinformation to the public as a weapon against the medical community.

Yes we know what we have said and have discussed it numerous times. It doesn't change what I have said above.

Has the safety and effectiveness of these vaccines been established?

Do you know the short, medium, and long term effects of these products? The benefit to risk ratio in all age groups?

Can the vaccines stop transmission and infection? Can they be used so herd immunity can be achieved?

The answer to all the above questions is NO. And yes it takes years and not a few months for the clinical phase trials to be completed.

You don't know the adverse reactions from these Covid vaccines.

mRNA vaccines didn't not exist prior to these ones. There is no mRNA vaccine that has been approved by the FDA prior to these Covid-19 vaccines. The knowledge existed but everything was at an experimental level. There is a huge difference between being at experimental and research level and having actual vaccines that have been approved by the FDA.