Abortions - Why so bad?

a reply to: Grenade

It's a generalisation and advice on how people can grow spiritually.

Nobody asked for your advice or your judgement on their need for spiritual growth.

Are you jumping to the defence of someone? Is that any of your business? You see how this works, hypocrite!

I see you jumping to attack Annee's opinion of what is and what is not anyone's business, by passive aggressively donning the cloak "God's" authority to attack her morality and spirituality, because you can't change her, or anyone else's mind.

Pretending to wear God's authority when you're not winning an argument is not only hypocritic, it's desperate.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Reflection on my actions and submitting my ego to that of a higher power has helped my spiritual development. Sharing that advice is not an attack on anyone.

Again, i never called her any names nor did i pass judgement. As i said, that's for the creator to decide.

There's nothing moral or spiritual about killing a baby and IMO it's something that should be frowned upon.

People can do what they like, but they need to suffer my opinion as i have a right to express it.

Fancy discussing the topic or you intent on a back and forth?

Only one person in here is name calling, you might need a mirror to see them.

Your laws agree with me, so suck it up and enjoy all those lives that will be saved.

a reply to: Grenade

Reflection on my actions and submitting my ego to that of a higher power has helped my spiritual development. Sharing that advice is not an attack on anyone.

Of course it is. You're implying that people who don't agree with you also don't agree with (your) god, who, apparently you believe, has given you authority to judge their lack of spiritual or moral integrity and are in need of your unsolicited advice.

There's nothing moral or spiritual about killing a baby and IMO it's something that should be frowned upon.

There you go again, trying to evoke guilt by conflating a zygote, an embryo, a fetus with a born "baby", as if they're all the same thing, i.e. killing a baby.

You can't force your morality on others. There are, however, plenty of moral reasons why a woman should have the right make decisions about her body, her life and the lives of everyone who depend on her.

People can do what they like, but they need to suffer my opinion as i have a right to express it.

Suffer how?

You think of children as punishment? Unwilling pregnant women should be made to suffer in pregnancy and labor because of their immoral sexuality? They should lose their liberty, suffer reputational, financial loss and miss opportunities for aborting? Lose their right to vote?

Your laws agree with me, so suck it up and enjoy all those lives that will be saved.

Which laws? Our abortion laws are up to the states, and the state where I live subsidizes abortion and reaches out to women in less forgiving states. When left to the voters, American women vote to keep abortion safe and legal.

Also, you're delusional if you think by banning abortion unborn lives will be saved. Outlawing abortion won't stop abortion, it'll just stop safe abortions from happening locally. Women of means will have no trouble finding a way. Desperate, poor women will also find a way, and many will suffer, even die, much to your delight.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: Boadicea

I'm sorry but i fail to follow the logic, you're a very clever person but this suggests God is ok with all manner of crimes.

No, it doesn't. In fact, we have the ten commandments, as well as the one and only commandment given by Jesus to tell us that no, God is not okay "with all manner of crime." Jesus also made it quite clear that whatever the sin (or crime), that forgiveness was available.

Perhaps more significant, the law allows for justifiable defenses to what is usually considered a crime, as well degrees of criminality. The criminal charge for killing someone can vary from reckless or negligent homicide to premeditated murder with aggravating circumstances.

I don't claim to know the word of God but i doubt he approves of child abuse, either in or out of the womb.

And yet, God allowed for spontaneous abortion, induced abortion, and all manner of complications as part of the pregnancy process. I'm not sure God's definition of "abuse" is the same as yours.

He also provided us with weapons to kill and maim, it's our decisions and humanity he likely casts judgement over.

Exactly. Adulting is hard. Crap happens. Sometimes there are no good options, only the best option. We can approach this with reason and respect and compassion for ALL involved, and find reasonable middle ground. Not "abortion always bad" and not "abortion always good."

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: Boadicea

Again if we define sentient as individual thought, which is brain activity...

Not all brain activity is individual thought, nor self-directed thought. It is involuntary and not sentient. Sentience also requires the ability to feel and transmit feelings to the brain and be processed by the brain.

...then it begins and can be measured in the first 6 to 9 weeks. After that you're killing a unique and sentient human child.

Nope. At least not sentient yet. At some point, yes. But not at six to nine weeks.

As discussed previously we share similar views on abortion, my only problem with purposeful termination of a child is when it's as a matter of convenience, due to irresponsible action.

Let me state first that the definition of "matter of convenience" seems to be a moving target in general in this argument, and I don't always agree. One person's idea of necessity may be another's idea of "convenience." But I won't even try to defend anyone who relies on abortion as their only means of contraceptive. However, we do not get to decide who deserves any right based on what the rest of us approve of or agree with. All rights are subject to abuse, and the best we can do as a society is to teach, encourage and enable people to do the right and responsible thing.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: Boadicea

I can hardly blame someone for a miscarriage, i prefer to use that term rather than spontaneous abortion so as not to blur the lines between a decision and an accident or medical emergency.

I understand preferring to use the term miscarriage, and wanting to make clear distinctions between willful decisions and no decision at all.

The medical reason for using the same term for both induced and spontaneous is because the basic process is pretty much the same whether for medical reasons or by choice. The same drugs, treatments and procedures are used for both. So one cannot simply legislate out the means of performing elective abortions without denying life-saving medical treatment for spontaneous abortions.

I'm truly sorry for your loss and the pain you must have felt.

Thank you. It was hell -- but could've been worse, so I count my blessings where I can.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Blaine91555

Due to the above, I see late-term abortion as one thing that should be criminal. It's clearly the taking of a life of a viable person who is a distinct and separate person from the mother.

What is a "late term" abortion? What, in your opinion, is a "viable person"?

Late term abortion does seem to defy definition and even if you look it up and try and find a solid definition it gets muddy. So I'll give my thoughts and opinions.

For me when I use that term I mean third-trimester abortions of an unborn child that would live if delivered. The actual act of infanticide.

I discussed this with two physicians when I was forming my views, one a relative and the other an acquaintance. Both are qualified to speak to this professionally. Both told me the same thing and that was that the safest way to handle it for the sake of the mother was always to do a C-section which means the baby lives and the odds of the mother being OK go up. That told me the only reason to not do a C-section rather than killing the baby is a matter of convenience and it's done with a disregard for human life. In my mind, that is murder, period end of subject.

As I've said more than a few times in these conversations, I'm opposed to the issue of abortion being political and I'm only for it being a matter of law when it comes to the intentional killing of a viable human being. Should be simple enough to understand.

When a person chooses to kill their own child after it's viable, when a safer option is available where the baby lives, it is murder. I understand it's incredibly rare anyway and that nearly all doctors would refuse to do it. Nearly all Democrats were and may still be against it as well because it crosses the line to criminal behavior and requires a sociopath to do it.

a reply to: Boadicea

and not "abortion always good."

You might have to box the whole democrat party on this one.

originally posted by: Blaine91555

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Blaine91555

Due to the above, I see late-term abortion as one thing that should be criminal. It's clearly the taking of a life of a viable person who is a distinct and separate person from the mother.

What is a "late term" abortion? What, in your opinion, is a "viable person"?

Late term abortion does seem to defy definition and even if you look it up and try and find a solid definition it gets muddy. So I'll give my thoughts and opinions.

For me when I use that term I mean third-trimester abortions of an unborn child that would live if delivered. The actual act of infanticide.

I discussed this with two physicians when I was forming my views, one a relative and the other an acquaintance. Both are qualified to speak to this professionally. Both told me the same thing and that was that the safest way to handle it for the sake of the mother was always to do a C-section which means the baby lives and the odds of the mother being OK go up. That told me the only reason to not do a C-section rather than killing the baby is a matter of convenience and it's done with a disregard for human life. In my mind, that is murder, period end of subject.

As I've said more than a few times in these conversations, I'm opposed to the issue of abortion being political and I'm only for it being a matter of law when it comes to the intentional killing of a viable human being. Should be simple enough to understand.

When a person chooses to kill their own child after it's viable, when a safer option is available where the baby lives, it is murder. I understand it's incredibly rare anyway and that nearly all doctors would refuse to do it. Nearly all Democrats were and may still be against it as well because it crosses the line to criminal behavior and requires a sociopath to do it.

Excellent post

a reply to: Saloon

I agree -- there is one God. (that's what makes him God -- by any name -- and not a god) This is why I use quotation marks around the "my" and "your." There is but one God... one Creator. That is definitely the faith of all Christians!

Thank you for correcting me in trying to speak for all Christians. I appreciate that and apologize for misunderstanding. It's a bugabear of mine...

I don't pretend to have all the answers, and I sure wish we could do better as well. But I don't know what we can do but accept that we are perfectly imperfect beings doing our best on this step in our journey. And continuing to do our best with the options we have available.

I don't know much but I know fighting and hating each other isn't the way to get there. It empowers the bad guys, not the good guys.

a reply to: Blaine91555

I agree with all of your post, especially regarding late-term terminations.

But did the doctors you spoke to say why a C-Section was preferable to inducing labor? Are there specific risks to inducing labor? Or is it more for expediency's sake and remove the child as quick as possible?

I'm just asking because I would think inducing labor would be safer and easier (tho longer).

a reply to: Sookiechacha

You’ve taken pretty much everything i said out of context, either through a lack of reading comprehension or deliberately conflating what I’ve said with what you want to hear. I said you need to suffer my opinion, where do I even mention children. Are you mentally deranged?

I won’t be replying to you anymore, we’re too far apart and you’ve made this about me rather than the subject matter.

I’m entitled to an opinion and don’t answer to your judgement. You’re boring me now with your crazy bullsh!t.

Have a good life.

a reply to: Boadicea

No doubt a very tuff subject that requires a lot of attention when
reading. And maybe even more attention to the words used when
replying/writing. A conversation that often bleeds into so many other
topics and can leave a lotta hard feelings.

Well played

a reply to: Boadicea

That was assuming the reason for terminating the viable baby was for the health of the mother. Less trauma to the mother as I understood it. It was not factoring in a mother whose intent was infanticide for convenience.

Here is a doctor at the Boulder Abortion Clinic who will terminate a viable child because the mother has psychological issues and to me, that is in fact murder.

Patients coming in for third trimester abortion (later abortions) are often seeking services for termination of a desired pregnancy that has developed serious complications. This usually means the discovery of a catastrophic fetal anomaly or genetic disorder that guarantees death, suffering, or serious disability for the baby that would be delivered if the pregnancy were to continue to term. Sometimes a woman presents at this stage for pregnancy termination because of her own severe medical illness or a psychiatric indication.

The other reasons I can at least understand.

originally posted by: Tipulatedone
So first I just want to say this is my very first thread!
Ive been a long time reader of ATS but never posted or commented until the last few days.

Now i thought i would start off with a perhaps rather controversial question...

Why do people think Abortions are so bad?
I suppose this question is mainly aimed at the American people as over here in the UK (Wales) no one seems to give a rat ass about it.
Ive tried asking the question on various message boards/youtube comments etc but noone ever seems to reply.

No right or wrong answers of course just want to see peoples thoughts!

I remember probably ten years ago there being conversations about it reaching the point in the UK, that terminating the lives of newborns was close to becoming legal in the UK under the right circumstances. How has that progressed there or was that just propaganda?

a reply to: Grenade

I’m entitled to an opinion and don’t answer to your judgement.

Ditto that...as it should be.

So take your "spiritual advice" and move along.

a reply to: Tipulatedone

" Why do people think Abortions are so bad? "

Well , the Not So Skinny Answer Is.........Abortions KILL Innocent Children Before they even have a Chance to be Born and Live a Life here on Planet Earth Like YOU DO . It Also can be Considered as Premeditated Murder of a Fellow Human Being . No one Except the Supreme Creator of the Universe and Everything in it can Create Intelligent Life that's " Soul " Purpose is to Experience THIS Life before Moving on to the Next One and Fulfill it's Destiny .

a reply to: Blaine91555

For me when I use that term I mean third-trimester abortions of an unborn child that would live if delivered.

Who is advocating for that? That certainly wasn't the law codified by Roe V Wade. I understand that in overturning Roe, the states have turned rather "Wild Wild West" when it comes to abortion laws. But from what I've seen, the extreme laws are ones that are regulating abortion, not deregulating existing state safeguards, that Roe's ruling allowed states to put in place.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: Sookiechacha

You’ve taken pretty much everything i said out of context, either through a lack of reading comprehension or deliberately conflating what I’ve said with what you want to hear. I said you need to suffer my opinion, where do I even mention children. Are you mentally deranged?

I won’t be replying to you anymore, we’re too far apart and you’ve made this about me rather than the subject matter.

I’m entitled to an opinion and don’t answer to your judgement. You’re boring me now with your crazy bullsh!t.

Have a good life.

I gotta say -- your posts are kind of like a Tumble Cup.

The wording just kind of bounces around.

I can't tell if its intentional wordplay or with "hidden" meaning -- or something else.

Just my opinion.