My problem with anti vaxxers

a reply to: chr0naut

I love it when people who think they are always the smartest person in the room continually show their ignorance and fallacies of logic, and then strut around like a peacock oblivious to the fact they repeatedly show themselves to be leagues less intelligent than they think they are

a reply to: chr0naut

If you are reasonable, then you would accept that in the recent past there is a massive list of medicines that were on the market and then have to be recalled because they were killing people. You also have to accept that recently the third major cause of death was medical misadventure. So it is no surprise that any reasonable person would be skeptical on a one-size fits all untried poorly tested gene therapy. Unless of course, you have taken it, nobody who has taken it wants to hear it might end up being one of those shonky recalled meds.

a reply to: littlecorn

My problem with Anti-vaxers is that there is not enough of them.

Here ya go
www.opensecrets.org...
Joe breaks the record for pharma donations to his Presidential campaign.
Joe tries to MANDATE the shot made by those who gave him all this $$$$$.
Joe says he's running again.
I am not getting the shot. I will not expend one single calorie to support JB.

Good enough reason? It could kill me, it could do nothing, it could make me immortal, I don't care.
Get the shot = make a political donation to JB. NOPE!


a reply to: littlecorn

originally posted by: optimisticcontrarian
a reply to: chr0naut

I love it when people who think they are always the smartest person in the room continually show their ignorance and fallacies of logic, and then strut around like a peacock oblivious to the fact they repeatedly show themselves to be leagues less intelligent than they think they are

I love it when people with whom I debate have no relevant statistics, or evidentiary links, or anything related to say specifically on-topic, and instead, start calling people names.

It is a sure sign that they have lost the debate and can think of no relevant argument.

Please feel free to point out my specific fallacies of logic, or provide some cogent argument to counter mine. That is how you win in debate.

a reply to: chr0naut

ubbish. To get to stage 3 it was tested in human clinical trials. In total, more than 30,000 study participants per vaccine product took part in the pivotal (decisive) clinical trial.

No. The new "bivalent" vaccine has only been tested on mice.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: chr0naut

If you are reasonable, then you would accept that in the recent past there is a massive list of medicines that were on the market and then have to be recalled because they were killing people.

The FDA has a list of recalled products that numbers 357 items, many (most) of which are not prescription medicines. Drug Recalls - FDA

The FDA also publish that there are 20,000 prescription drug products approved for marketing. Fact Sheet: FDA at a Glance

So the recalls do not represent a particularly 'massive' ratio when compared to the number of prescription medicines available.

Also, the recall of a drug is a sign of the care and continued work of the FDA to protect the public. It isn't a sign of them 'lying'. And with tens of thousands of drugs out there, of course some will get through even the most stringent testing. That is why the FDA continues to verify drug safety after approval is given.

You also have to accept that recently the third major cause of death was medical misadventure.

The top 10 causes of death - WHO

List of causes of death by rate From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Leading Causes of Death and Injury - CDC

As near as I can tell, medical misadventure is nowhere near the third major cause of death.

According to Medical Error Statistics - MyMedicalScore there are 250,000 deaths due to medical errors in the US per year. According to this United States Death Statistics Per Year there are 3,385,364. So medical errors account for 7.38% of all deaths in the US.

So it is no surprise that any reasonable person would be skeptical on a one-size fits all untried poorly tested gene therapy. Unless of course, you have taken it, nobody who has taken it wants to hear it might end up being one of those shonky recalled meds.

Again you have made a lot of allegations, without any supportive evidence whatsoever.

You don't "reason" by guessing at something and then going all 'over the top' about some ridiculous thing that exists only in your head.

Collect some supportive evidence. It's easy, we've got the Internet these days!

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: iwanttobelieve70

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: littlecorn

Here’s the reality, and one that most don’t want to admit.

Some people have/will die of Covid
Some people have/will die from the vaccines

We will probably never know the true numbers to either.
We will probably never know if the vaccines could have greatly helped some while maybe harming others, ie, older people vs younger, comorbidities etc.

I know for sure, it shouldn’t have been forced and people should not have lost their jobs over it. That was wrong.

But we do know that roughly millions of people have died from COVID-19.

And we do know that possibly thousands of people may have died from the vaccines.

And we know that the vaccines significantly reduced the ratio of deaths of those infected with COVID-19.

Do you know that they don’t count vaccination deaths and Covid deaths the same way?

Yes.

The Covid number is less than 6% of the Covid death totals.

Actually, that 6% were those who died of COVID-19 alone, with no other comorbidities. People who died with COVID-19 as a primary cause of death on their death certificates still died of COVID-19, even with comorbidities.

But even that may have been the case only in very early CDC totals. The CDC changed their methodology for COVID-19 death reporting on death certificates back in February 2020, precisely because of that allegation.

That it is not far out of line from vac deaths. Now if you just want to count all deaths of people that got the vaccine that died within 3 months as a vaccine death as they did with Covid the numbers will be a lot closer.

Based upon what? You just made up a number and you are expecting me to believe it?

Let me explain, although minor adverse reactions may be unlikely to be recorded in VAERS and similar, really important deaths data, entered by medical staff, tasked with recording such deaths, would not have omitted such reporting. Due to its importance. At this time where there are an estimated 604,665,888 doses delivered in the US, there are only 16,924 deaths reported in VARES post a coronavirus vaccine. 2.7 chances of death in 100,000 doses (0.0027% of all doses given).

You have to know they are doing this. You are not dumb, right? Why are the numbers always wrong and always in the same direction? They just approved the fifth 5 dose and it was tested on 8 mice. That’s it. 8 mice as a test group for all the world and I will bet you dollars to donuts that those 8 mice were only give that one dose and not the 4 before as well.

Rubbish. To get to stage 3 it was tested in human clinical trials. In total, more than 30,000 study participants per vaccine product took part in the pivotal (decisive) clinical trial.

Use you head for more than a hat rack people. Don’t let math scare you.

Indeed!

www.fda.gov...

8 mice you lied. Do not trust anything this poster says.

Translation

igorchudov.substack.com...

originally posted by: iwanttobelieve70

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: iwanttobelieve70

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: littlecorn

Here’s the reality, and one that most don’t want to admit.

Some people have/will die of Covid
Some people have/will die from the vaccines

We will probably never know the true numbers to either.
We will probably never know if the vaccines could have greatly helped some while maybe harming others, ie, older people vs younger, comorbidities etc.

I know for sure, it shouldn’t have been forced and people should not have lost their jobs over it. That was wrong.

But we do know that roughly millions of people have died from COVID-19.

And we do know that possibly thousands of people may have died from the vaccines.

And we know that the vaccines significantly reduced the ratio of deaths of those infected with COVID-19.

Do you know that they don’t count vaccination deaths and Covid deaths the same way?

Yes.

The Covid number is less than 6% of the Covid death totals.

Actually, that 6% were those who died of COVID-19 alone, with no other comorbidities. People who died with COVID-19 as a primary cause of death on their death certificates still died of COVID-19, even with comorbidities.

But even that may have been the case only in very early CDC totals. The CDC changed their methodology for COVID-19 death reporting on death certificates back in February 2020, precisely because of that allegation.

That it is not far out of line from vac deaths. Now if you just want to count all deaths of people that got the vaccine that died within 3 months as a vaccine death as they did with Covid the numbers will be a lot closer.

Based upon what? You just made up a number and you are expecting me to believe it?

Let me explain, although minor adverse reactions may be unlikely to be recorded in VAERS and similar, really important deaths data, entered by medical staff, tasked with recording such deaths, would not have omitted such reporting. Due to its importance. At this time where there are an estimated 604,665,888 doses delivered in the US, there are only 16,924 deaths reported in VARES post a coronavirus vaccine. 2.7 chances of death in 100,000 doses (0.0027% of all doses given).

You have to know they are doing this. You are not dumb, right? Why are the numbers always wrong and always in the same direction? They just approved the fifth 5 dose and it was tested on 8 mice. That’s it. 8 mice as a test group for all the world and I will bet you dollars to donuts that those 8 mice were only give that one dose and not the 4 before as well.

Rubbish. To get to stage 3 it was tested in human clinical trials. In total, more than 30,000 study participants per vaccine product took part in the pivotal (decisive) clinical trial.

Use you head for more than a hat rack people. Don’t let math scare you.

Indeed!

www.fda.gov...

8 mice you lied. Do not trust the anything this poster says.

Translation

igorchudov.substack.com...

Page 11 of the FDA document that you linked to says that there were human clinical trials of the bivalent vaccines.

I have no idea of the credentials of Igor Chudov or if he should be quoted as some sort of authority.

How were the vaccines tested?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: iwanttobelieve70

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: iwanttobelieve70

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: littlecorn

Here’s the reality, and one that most don’t want to admit.

Some people have/will die of Covid
Some people have/will die from the vaccines

We will probably never know the true numbers to either.
We will probably never know if the vaccines could have greatly helped some while maybe harming others, ie, older people vs younger, comorbidities etc.

I know for sure, it shouldn’t have been forced and people should not have lost their jobs over it. That was wrong.

But we do know that roughly millions of people have died from COVID-19.

And we do know that possibly thousands of people may have died from the vaccines.

And we know that the vaccines significantly reduced the ratio of deaths of those infected with COVID-19.

Do you know that they don’t count vaccination deaths and Covid deaths the same way?

Yes.

The Covid number is less than 6% of the Covid death totals.

Actually, that 6% were those who died of COVID-19 alone, with no other comorbidities. People who died with COVID-19 as a primary cause of death on their death certificates still died of COVID-19, even with comorbidities.

But even that may have been the case only in very early CDC totals. The CDC changed their methodology for COVID-19 death reporting on death certificates back in February 2020, precisely because of that allegation.

That it is not far out of line from vac deaths. Now if you just want to count all deaths of people that got the vaccine that died within 3 months as a vaccine death as they did with Covid the numbers will be a lot closer.

Based upon what? You just made up a number and you are expecting me to believe it?

Let me explain, although minor adverse reactions may be unlikely to be recorded in VAERS and similar, really important deaths data, entered by medical staff, tasked with recording such deaths, would not have omitted such reporting. Due to its importance. At this time where there are an estimated 604,665,888 doses delivered in the US, there are only 16,924 deaths reported in VARES post a coronavirus vaccine. 2.7 chances of death in 100,000 doses (0.0027% of all doses given).

You have to know they are doing this. You are not dumb, right? Why are the numbers always wrong and always in the same direction? They just approved the fifth 5 dose and it was tested on 8 mice. That’s it. 8 mice as a test group for all the world and I will bet you dollars to donuts that those 8 mice were only give that one dose and not the 4 before as well.

Rubbish. To get to stage 3 it was tested in human clinical trials. In total, more than 30,000 study participants per vaccine product took part in the pivotal (decisive) clinical trial.

Use you head for more than a hat rack people. Don’t let math scare you.

Indeed!

www.fda.gov...

8 mice you lied. Do not trust the anything this poster says.

Translation

igorchudov.substack.com...

Page 11 of the FDA document that you linked to says that there were human clinical trials of the bivalent vaccines.

I have no idea of the credentials of Igor Chudov or if he should be quoted as some sort of authority.

How were the vaccines tested?

The fifth dose was tested on 8 mice and eight mice alone and those 8 identical mice showed a 73 times difference in outcomes. What does that mean to humans? Nobody knows because they tested it on 8 mice.

Now trust your first instinct. You thought there was no way they only tested this dose on eight mice. You read it and that’s what they did. Did they test the other doses on people? Yes. Did they test this on anything more than 8 mice? No

Take the L, be a man and admit you are wrong or continue to do what you are paid to do. I don’t care I just proved you to have lied and that you are untrustworthy.


8 mice. They tested the fifth dose on 8 mice only and declared it safe for humans even though there is a 73 times difference in outcomes with no repeat no explanation.

a reply to: chr0naut

Your attitude has just belittled the Thalidomide debacle and you are pointing at me for making unqualified statements?

a reply to: anonentity
Gosh, it's Thalidomide, or my childhood memories of it's victims, which created my distrust of government 'advice'.

I'll read the arguments on ATS for another couple of years before I stick a 'litigation immune' experimental drug in my bloodstream!

All my mates old enough to remember Thalidomide, remain unvaccinated for covid...and none died of covid either lol, just felt like # for a week or so 👍

a reply to: littlecorn

Sounds like a personal problem to me. It is actually very simple. If you believe in vaccines, by all means get vaccinated. If you are against vaccines then don't.

How hard can it be?

Before you call the unvaccinated a hazard to your health ask one question. If a vaccine won't prevent you from getting a disease, why are you getting vaccinated?

a reply to: Annee
The truth is "I don't want to" is a valid enough reason in the United States.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: chr0naut

If you are reasonable, then you would accept that in the recent past there is a massive list of medicines that were on the market and then have to be recalled because they were killing people. You also have to accept that recently the third major cause of death was medical misadventure. So it is no surprise that any reasonable person would be skeptical on a one-size fits all untried poorly tested gene therapy. Unless of course, you have taken it, nobody who has taken it wants to hear it might end up being one of those shonky recalled meds.

www.fda.gov...

Here is a very recent example of a recalled drug, and this was simply due to "impurities" and the POSSIBILITY that it MAY have been causing cancer in lab rats (real lab rats, not human lab rats).

"The U.S. Food and Drug Administration today announced it is requesting manufacturers withdraw all prescription and over-the-counter (OTC) ranitidine drugs from the market immediately. This is the latest step in an ongoing investigation of a contaminant known as N-Nitrosodimethylamine (NDMA) in ranitidine medications (commonly known by the brand name Zantac). The agency has determined that the impurity in some ranitidine products increases over time and when stored at higher than room temperatures and may result in consumer exposure to unacceptable levels of this impurity. As a result of this immediate market withdrawal request, ranitidine products will not be available for new or existing prescriptions or OTC use in the U.S.

NDMA is a probable human carcinogen (a substance that could cause cancer). In the summer of 2019, the FDA became aware of independent laboratory testing that found NDMA in ranitidine. Low levels of NDMA are commonly ingested in the diet, for example NDMA is present in foods and in water. These low levels would not be expected to lead to an increase in the risk of cancer. However, sustained higher levels of exposure may increase the risk of cancer in humans. The FDA conducted thorough laboratory tests and found NDMA in ranitidine at low levels. At the time, the agency did not have enough scientific evidence to recommend whether individuals should continue or stop taking ranitidine medicines, and continued its investigation and warned the public in September 2019 of the potential risks and to consider alternative OTC and prescription treatments.

New FDA testing and evaluation prompted by information from third-party laboratories confirmed that NDMA levels increase in ranitidine even under normal storage conditions, and NDMA has been found to increase significantly in samples stored at higher temperatures, including temperatures the product may be exposed to during distribution and handling by consumers. The testing also showed that the older a ranitidine product is, or the longer the length of time since it was manufactured, the greater the level of NDMA. These conditions may raise the level of NDMA in the ranitidine product above the acceptable daily intake limit.

With today’s announcement, the FDA is sending letters to all manufacturers of ranitidine requesting they withdraw their products from the market. The FDA is also advising consumers taking OTC ranitidine to stop taking any tablets or liquid they currently have, dispose of them properly and not buy more; for those who wish to continue treating their condition, they should consider using other approved OTC products. Patients taking prescription ranitidine should speak with their health care professional about other treatment options before stopping the medicine, as there are multiple drugs approved for the same or similar uses as ranitidine that do not carry the same risks from NDMA. To date, the FDA’s testing has not found NDMA in famotidine (Pepcid), cimetidine (Tagamet), esomeprazole (Nexium), lansoprazole (Prevacid) or omeprazole (Prilosec)"

"

originally posted by: angeltone
a reply to: anonentity
Gosh, it's Thalidomide, or my childhood memories of it's victims, which created my distrust of government 'advice'.

I'll read the arguments on ATS for another couple of years before I stick a 'litigation immune' experimental drug in my bloodstream!

All my mates old enough to remember Thalidomide, remain unvaccinated for covid...and none died of covid either lol, just felt like # for a week or so 👍

The Thalidomide that was approved by European agencies was of a different chirality than the one that caused birth defects.

What happened is that the company producing the drug found a cheaper way to manufacture Thalidomide but they didn't realize at the time that the drug was different due to the direction that the chemical was assembled.

We now know that the chirality of a molecule is important, and such a change to manufacturing process is now regulated by the FDA, requiring testing and re-approval before it released to the public.

Thalidomide was never initially approved for use in the USA. The FDA blocked it's approval. Despite that, 17 children born in the USA had deformities due to Thalidomide. Frances Oldham Kelsey of the FDA was given a Presidential award for distinguished service from the federal government for not allowing Thalidomide to be approved for sale in the US.

So, it wasn't a failure for FDA regulation at all.

Thalidomode manufactured with the correct chirality is still approved for use. According to Wikipedia, It was approved in the United States in 1998 for use as a treatment for cancer (where it cannot cause birth defects). It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines and is available as a generic medication.

As a reason to distrust the government, Thalidomide is a bit of a fail, there.

a reply to: chr0naut

As a reason to distrust the government, Thalidomide is a bit of a fail, there.

I massively distrust the UK government for many reasons lol, Thalidomide is just one specific example of shoddy safeguard/testing, where UK health authorities failed.

Same as the covid jabs lol, remove immunity from prosecution and I may be tempted, but I'd prefer catch the disease a couple of more times, it's no worse than flu for healthy people!🤣

originally posted by: angeltone
a reply to: chr0naut

As a reason to distrust the government, Thalidomide is a bit of a fail, there.

I massively distrust the UK government for many reasons lol, Thalidomide is just one specific example of shoddy safeguard/testing, where UK health authorities failed.

I thought the UK government was democratic, based upon the Westminster system, and representative of its constituents? Perhaps your distrust of government is due to ignorance and your not taking your place in it?

Same as the covid jabs lol, remove immunity from prosecution and I may be tempted, but I'd prefer catch the disease a couple of more times, it's no worse than flu for healthy people!🤣

Yes, it wasn't as deadly as the 1918 flu, which killed an estimated 50 million people. Surprisingly, on a case mortality basis, COVID-19 is nearly the same as the 1918 flu. It's just we have better support medicine now.

And there's always the slim possibility that with such a large host base, the virus could mutate to something extremely more deadly. The more people who catch the virus, the more likely that possibility becomes. So, catch the disease a few more times and cross your fingers.

a reply to: chr0naut

I'm going to make some bold anti-vaxx claims. Let me know which ones are false.

1. LNP can cross the BBB. LNP can cross the BPB.
2. LNP distributes itself throughout the organs of the body.
3. mRNA delivered by LNP has been found in blood and tissue months past the date of injection (cells continue producing spike protein).
4. The formulation of the mRNA was unique in its replacement of uracil - the biological consequences of which are yet unknown.
5. mRNA injection has been proven to cause heart damage.
6. A recent study (published this month) shows 1 in 6 with heart rhythm changes. 7 in 301 with heart inflammation after an injection.
7. No studies on safety have been performed in NZ.
8. NZ all cause mortality is 10-20% higher than the pre-pandemic average throughout 2022.
9. All cause mortality throughout Europe is significantly higher throughout 2022 than it was pre-pandemic.
10. strategies were developed by behavioral scientists for the psychological manipulation of the public before the vaccines were given emergency use authorization. The division of society was institutionalized.

11. The vaccine does not/ did not limit spread of the disease.

www.youtube.com...