Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 2

This is an interesting turn of events...

P utin just lost a major foothold in Ukraine - The Ukrainian Orthodox Church, heretofore a part of the Russian Orthodox Church, declared its independence last month after expressing disagreement with Patriarch Kirill’s position on the Russian-Ukrainian war.

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church, heretofore a part of the Russian Orthodox Church, declared its independence last month after expressing disagreement with Patriarch Kirill’s position on the Russian-Ukrainian war.

Patriarch Kirill, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, had conveyed his support for what Russian President Vladimir Putin calls the “special military operation” on multiple occasions. Among other things, Kirill said that Russia has never attacked anyone. Rather, the current hostilities are about protecting the population of Donbas, an eastern region of Ukraine. This coincides with the official Russian line: Russian troops are deployed to protect the people living in Donbas, not to attack Ukrainians.

The stance of Metropolitan Onufriy, who is the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, has been dramatically different from the outset of military hostilities. Onufriy called on Putin to stop the “fratricidal war” immediately. He said that the war repeats the sin of Cain, who killed his brother Abel out of envy. Such a war, said Onufriy, has no justification, either with God or with the people.

In his recent phone conversation with Patriarch Kirill, Pope Francis warned him against following Putin’s line too closely. Francis called on Kirill not to be “Putin’s altar boy.” This admonition was not received by the Moscow Patriarchy particularly well.

click link for article

additional -
Russia arrested an Orthodox Church priest who said troops fighting Ukraine are going to hell, reports say

click link for article

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Grimpachi

Yeah its kinda like me questioning you on the number of Ukrainians who surrendered in Mariupol... I said a few hundred and it turned out to be over 2k +/-.

funny how that works when we have initial info and updated info arrives changing the info we originally got.

I am detecting large amounts of copium coming from your direction.

BTW, did you know the red cross has been allowed in to see the prisoners in Russia? Yet, they still won't verify the well being of Russian prisoners. Not so much of an unbiased or humanitarian group as they claim. They remain strangely vague about the number of Ukrainian POWs tho. That is OK there are lots of videos of their camps tho.

However your track record on sources, and lack of, compels me to question and research your sources.

Just be honest. We both know you are going to label any source I post that is negative about Ukraine that isn't MSM you will label propaganda without ever trying to verify the info in them. That is your MO.

Hell, you post videos almost daily of what I am sure is a 3 letter agency front man.

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
But while the pro-Russia crowd loves to bring up Bandera, they steadfastly avoid mentioning the Ukrainians who loyally served the Red Army in the war.

During WW2 the Ukrainians had to pick sides. Some chose to ally themselves with the Germans and others to stay with the Soviet Russians. The choice of many Ukrainians was based on their poor treatment by Russia, where memory of the Holodomor were still alive - upwards of 5 million Ukrainians were killed by Russia in what is referred to as a genocide.

After, and during WW2, the Russians got their revenge on Ukraine. Millions were ethnically cleansed to make way for Russians - such as Crimea being emptied of the Tartars, for example.

History has influenced the present. Putin and the Russians are re-living a war that ended 80 years ago. But whichever way you look at it, Ukraine has been historically mistreated by Russia. No amount of selective historical revisionism can alter that fact.

Russia, racist to Ukrainians for a hundred years.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Genocide with a specific meaning. You are going to have to prove that they are trying to genocide them. And there is another word from you. How are they taking revenge? What has been vengeful in their actions?

Multiple meanings of genocide, both cultural and literal like I already told you. Mass graves at Bucha, handing out passports, forced deportations including children, weaponized rape. All of this has been documented and you can read about, but you refuse to believe. I'm not going to google it for you anymore.

I asked you if you think Russia has the right to take revenge, because when Russian atrocities are brought up you keep countering that with talking about Bandera for example. So it's reasonable to ask if you think Banderas Nazi sympathies justify revenge on modern Ukrainians. Is that clear enough for you to not dodge?

Your fake atrocities of today do not impress me one bit either.

What worries me is that Russia's real atrocities don't impress you. Makes me think you're jaded and numb.

That was a nice try tho.

What was a nice try? And we can talk about Ukrainian illegal combatants if you've seen something like that, but at least we agree about the Russian ones?

In fact, they did mark an old babushka death. It is the one that came out with the old USSR flag waving it when she thought the military coming up was from Russia. Have you seen that video? They marked her for death when the video gained popularity. It is on the Ukrainian channels still.

Stop changing the subject now. I was talking about your alleged blood sports. Instead you're talking about a video of a babushka not being killed but allowed to wave her flag?

More mercs? Is that what you mean by a coalition of willing?

I have a feeling that within the next month or two most of the mercs are going to be fleeing back to where they came from.

No, I think it would be very much preferable to use regular troops. I don't which mercs you're talking about, Wagner?

Within the confines of our conversation, what do you mean by coup?

A group of people in Donbas conspiring to take control and disable the existing authorities. I won't call them legitimate authorities, maybe that helps.

I don't think I ambiguous about the term coup when I referred to the documented one in 2014 Kyiv. Did I?

Not sure what you're asking. But as long as you're consistent, either allow both or neither coup.

a reply to: paraphi

For me, it is a matter of intellectual honesty in discussing a topic.

Yeah, Bandera's people got up to some bad things. As you point out though, the Ukrainians had been hugely provoked by Stalin's psychopathic regime before the German invasion.

However, a balanced look at Ukraine in the war must admit that many, MANY more Ukrainians served the Soviets than they did the Germans. The number killed in action certainly far outnumbered those who were part of Bandera's forces.

It is all part of the history. Russian propaganda only wants people to hear a subset of cherry-picked, not even facts, so much as information bullets. They don't want people to know the entire background and the complex churn of shifting allegiances that occurred in the bloodbaths that went on in Ukraine from the 1930s through the 1950s. For, to admit that entire background, the Russian state would have to admit their invasion of Ukraine is an aggressive war on par with that of Hitler's.

Cheers

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Just be honest. We both know you are going to label any source I post that is negative about Ukraine that isn't MSM you will label propaganda without ever trying to verify the info in them.

Western MSM simply is way more credible than Russian. They did write about the prisoners being shot in the knee, high Ukrainian casualties under Russian artillery fire, complaints from Ukrainian soldiers not getting enough support. I challenge you to find the equivalents of these in Russian MSM. And if you can't, think about what that means.

a reply to: Cutepants

I don't think Russia is committing genocide. They are following a policy of ethnic cleansing, though.

How better to empty an area than to march in and torch all the houses and rape whoever remains. Look at Mariupol, which had a population of half a million, but now has a population of ziltch. The same with the Donbas, which has lost 2 million people since Russia started to interfere in 2014.

Whole areas of Ukraine are being emptied of Ukrainians. If Russia gets its way, these areas will be backfilled by Russians.

A good case study is Kaliningrad, which the Russians ended up with as a prize of war after WW2. All ethnic Germans were forceable deported, and the territory was backfilled with Russians.

a reply to: paraphi

Well I don't think they want to kill all Ukrainians, no. But I think genocide is often used to describe more limited cleansings too.

And that strategy of replacing other peoples with Russians is one of the biggest problems imo. That's why we can't be as lenient and patient with Russia as we have been so far, Europe needs to get serious.

a reply to: Cutepants

Multiple meanings of genocide, both cultural and literal like I already told you. Mass graves at Bucha, handing out passports, forced deportations including children, weaponized rape. All of this has been documented and you can read about, but you refuse to believe. I'm not going to google it for you anymore.

I can't take you seriously anymore.

Mass graves at Bucha - video of Ukraine filling them and an ICC report stating the majority of deaths were caused by flechettes that were fired on positions Russia held.
That is right up there with the claims from Kyiv that Russia shelled Donetsk.
Handing out passports - is genocide? that is off in lala land.
Forced deportations including children- is there any lying propaganda from Ukraine that you won't believe?
Weaponized rape- even after the one made those accusations was fired and admitted to making them up you still believe it. I guess that answers my last question.

Yeah, I refuse to believe things that have been proven false especially when the people that have spread those lies have confessed to lying about it.

I asked you if you think Russia has the right to take revenge, because when Russian atrocities are brought up

Your question is based on proven lies that you insist are truth. There is no point in answering questions like that.

So it's reasonable to ask if you think Banderas Nazi sympathies justify revenge on modern Ukrainians. Is that clear enough for you to not dodge?

There is nothing reasonable about what you are stating or asking anymore because you base everything on lies that you claim are fact.

What worries me is that Russia's real atrocities don't impress you. Makes me think you're jaded and numb.

That is because you believe anything they tell you. You obviously don't follow up on their claims either. You are still pushing the rape thing.

What was a nice try? And we can talk about Ukrainian illegal combatants if you've seen something like that, but at least we agree about the Russian ones?

They were either both illegal or they both weren't. It is one or the other you don't get to make up arbitrary exemptions as you please.

Stop changing the subject now. I was talking about your alleged blood sports. Instead you're talking about a video of a babushka not being killed but allowed to wave her flag?

You asked a question and I answered.
After this I done with you, with your false"facts" claiming passports are genocide getting upset when I answer a question.

No, I think it would be very much preferable to use regular troops. I don't which mercs you're talking about, Wagner?

Wagner are mercs and so is every person coming from other countries to fight for Ukraine's side. If you disagree with that you are being dishonest.

Regular troops are exactly what could trigger a nuke. It is exactly what was warned not to do. I really don't understand those like you that are dead set on triggering a nuclear war. maybe you think he is bluffing but to take that bet is beyond foolish.

A group of people in Donbas conspiring to take control and disable the existing authorities. I won't call them legitimate authorities, maybe that helps.

That would be a coup. I don't think it applies to when a country captures territory because those authorities wouldn't be in charge of anything but a title at that point. It is an interesting question that I will look up tomorrow.

BTW, did you know the mayor of Kherson stayed as the mayor of Kherson? Seems he was already somewhat pro-Russia already.

Any I am done. I just can't keep going if you are going to insist that proven lies are facts.

originally posted by: Cutepants

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Just be honest. We both know you are going to label any source I post that is negative about Ukraine that isn't MSM you will label propaganda without ever trying to verify the info in them.

Western MSM simply is way more credible than Russian. They did write about the prisoners being shot in the knee, high Ukrainian casualties under Russian artillery fire, complaints from Ukrainian soldiers not getting enough support. I challenge you to find the equivalents of these in Russian MSM. And if you can't, think about what that means.

In every one of the instances you listed the evidence was undeniable and they reported that after days or weeks of it being spread far and wide. They didn't report those things because they had integrity. They reported them because staying quiet any longer would ruin any trust people had in them.

In that regard, they are exactly the same as Russia.

Russia isn't in an information vacuum. The way people act I think that is what some believe.

a reply to: Cutepants

Europe needs to get serious.

Yes, although I would say the entire West rather than just Europe.

The time to get enough artillery and munitions to Ukraine is now, not December (Germany).

Cheers

a reply to: Grimpachi

By the way did you know the ICRC dealt with that particular issue the first and the last week in March, after meeting with the Ukraine and Russian governments (the head of the ICRC spent about 5 days in Ukraine and about 2 days in Russia). Further evidence of that is with prisoner exchanges, which the ICRC tracks and helps facilitate.

* - March 1, 2022 - Red Cross chief 'cautiously positive' about possible prisoner visits in Ukraine

* - March 23, 2022 - Red Cross boss to raise "pressing" issues on Ukraine with Russia- agency


The issue are the numbers of pow's Ukraine reports is in their custody and one of the leaders for the fake republics says the number of Russian pow's in custody is higher.

The problem Russia and the fake republics are running into is they refuse to believe Russian soldiers have deserted the Russia / fake republic military. Missing service members of the Russian / fake republics militaries are automatically assumed top be captured, even when they are not (and their are several cases of russians showing up back at their homes in Russia to avoid being slaughtered for Putin.


Secondly Russia also must provide access top ALL Ukrainian pows as well as ALL IC's (Interned civilians if you are unfamiliar with the term). Members of the military engaged in armed conflict can NOT be tried for their actions using a sham court and local adhoc law. They have Combatant Immunity. A war crime is about the only action taken by soldiers where Combatant Immunity can be called into question.

So while I get it that you hate Ukraine do you think you could actually do some research on what you read before claiming it as truth - like the ICRC and access to pow's.


May I suggest you start here -
International Committee of the Red Cross - Main page
International Committee of the Red Cross - Ukraine operations

To date Ukraine and Russia have completed 11 POW exchanges.

a reply to: Grimpachi

You're welcome to stop taking me seriously, I can't force you to come to your senses. At this point we're going through the motions I guess because I know you don't want to listen to what I say and I guess you think I'm the same. Like, I'm not going to bother responding to your feeble denials, but I will point out your hypocrisies.

Yeah, I refuse to believe things that have been proven false especially when the people that have spread those lies have confessed to lying about it.

In a free country, no one can force you to believe. Let's be proud of that at least?

Your question is based on proven lies that you insist are truth. There is no point in answering questions like that.

There is nothing reasonable about what you are stating or asking anymore because you base everything on lies that you claim are fact.

That is because you believe anything they tell you. You obviously don't follow up on their claims either. You are still pushing the rape thing.

Ooh, hold on. Could it be you're finally running out of excuses and deflections? Even the most jaded propagandist or fascist will slowly be worn down I believe, the lies eat away at your soul like worms, one tiny piece at a time.

They were either both illegal or they both weren't. It is one or the other you don't get to make up arbitrary exemptions as you please.

No, the fact is I don't know which Ukrainian troops you're referring to. So it's impossible for me to say if they we're legal or not. I can only say that about the Russian ones I know about.

You keep trying to trap me like this but I don't see the point.

You asked a question and I answered.
After this I done with you, with your false"facts" claiming passports are genocide getting upset when I answer a question.

The hell has that got to do with the babushka?

Wagner are mercs and so is every person coming from other countries to fight for Ukraine's side. If you disagree with that you are being dishonest.

No. Like I've already told you, it's common for people to fight in the armies of foreign countries without being mercenaries. Like Russia and France, for example. You can't just stick your fingers in your ears, sing la la and pretend mercenary means whatever you want it to mean on a given day.

Regular troops are exactly what could trigger a nuke. It is exactly what was warned not to do. I really don't understand those like you that are dead set on triggering a nuclear war. maybe you think he is bluffing but to take that bet is beyond foolish.

If we we're sending troops to attack Russia itself I might be worried. That would take much more careful consideration. But if we sent troops to Ukraine we'd only be doing what Russia is already doing. You can spend all your life in fear, it's not worth it.

That would be a coup. I don't think it applies to when a country captures territory because those authorities wouldn't be in charge of anything but a title at that point. It is an interesting question that I will look up tomorrow.

Not sure what you're rambling about, but if you say so.

BTW, did you know the mayor of Kherson stayed as the mayor of Kherson? Seems he was already somewhat pro-Russia already.

That's the impression I've gotten, yeah. Weakest link in an otherwise surprisingly strong chain maybe, I think there's rumors he allowed the Russians to advance more than would have been necessary at the start.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Yeah, I just think Europe has been too naive. Not including Estonia, Poland.

a reply to: Xcathdra

So another win for Putin.

Not only has he invaded another Slavic country, but he has split the Orthodox Church in Slavic lands.

Heckuva Job, Vladdy!

Cheers

originally posted by: Grimpachi
In that regard, they are exactly the same as Russia.

Russia isn't in an information vacuum. The way people act I think that is what some believe.

Can you find a negative piece of news about the Russian army in Russian media?

I don't know why you feel like I believe Russia is an information vacuum, very random accusation.

originally posted by: Cutepants
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Yeah, I just think Europe has been too naive. Not including Estonia, Poland.

Being naive is one aspect. Mercenary desire for financial gain is a big part. The French and Germans are the worst offenders; not so much for specific acts (although the Nordstream politics are particularly questionable) as for the fact that as those two major EU powers go, so goes the rest of the EU with the exception of the Visegrad Four and the Baltic republics.

France and Germany want to run the EU but don't understand that exercising leadership is something that requires self-sacrifice. Germany always wanted empire to pay for itself and the French government dreams of something like the influence they had in the 1930s. For the EU to shake off the dysfunction, they need leaders who can move beyond the enduring national agendas.

Cheers

a reply to: Cutepants

A disinformation vacuum would be a more apt description of Russian society at this point.

Cheers

originally posted by: Grimpachi
Just be honest. We both know you are going to label any source I post that is negative about Ukraine that isn't MSM you will label propaganda without ever trying to verify the info in them. That is your MO.

and again you would be lying. I do my due diligence in reading your posts and seeing what source you used. I then decide, based on that info as well as all other info on the particular issue and make my mind up then on if your info is something that has some truth to it or if its something that is fraudulent and if I am going to waste time addressing it.

Thats the issue you cant seem to understand. You post your info and I post my info. In the end we know we arent going to change our minds. In reality I post for the lurkers in the thread who have an interest in all of the info from both sides, at which point they get to decide for themselves what info they trust, what info they don't, and what they want to do at that point is up to them. Maybe they just move on until newer updated info come out...

It is up to them.

I will say though it is not going to deter my view on questioning and researching your sources and I would expect you to do the same (however you have already stated you outright ignore some of the posted sources and their is not much I can do about that as thats on you).

You need to learn what challenging a source is all about and how to do it correctly and to stop taking everything as a personal attack (only to then attack me / others because you think its a slight against you when its not). I post the info on your sources and leave it at that. Other users in the thread can then read it and decide for themselves what to make of it.

As for the asinine comment you made about one of my sources and a 3 letter agency - He is the one whom you have stated numerous times that you dont watch and thats on you. The point is the info is posted and again people can decide for themselves if they trust whats being posted or not and go from there.

Invoking the 3 letter accusation though is nothing but deflection.

Also - all my sources are listed at the bottom of each update and when a different source is used the link is provided.

originally posted by: Cutepants

originally posted by: Grimpachi
In that regard, they are exactly the same as Russia.

Russia isn't in an information vacuum. The way people act I think that is what some believe.

Can you find a negative piece of news about the Russian army in Russian media?

I don't know why you feel like I believe Russia is an information vacuum, very random accusation.

Doubtful unless the person wants to spend 15 years in prison. Also everything dealing with the military in Russia is considered a state secret. Asking for a Russian source criticizing Russia would be like having the SS investigating Auschwitz.

Nothing wrong will be found.