Russia Ukraine Update Thread - part 2

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: JinMI

Nice attempt at deflection

But that amounts to same place as the rest of us, imagine that.

Do i really need to illuminate you as to opinions JinMI?

I care for your opinions as much as you care for mine.

I'd rather discuss facts.

a reply to: JinMI

Fact is Russia are in the wrong place.

How's that for a fact.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: JinMI

Fact is Russia are in the wrong place.

How's that for a fact.

Agreed.

So:

Why? How? Context? Strategy for eliminating?

a reply to: JinMI

The why equates to Putin's wet dream of a return of his nation to former CCCP type glory that is never going to materialise.

How are they there, well in person far as i can establish which is the problem really.

As to a strategy for eliminating, Russia could go back home, and offer up Putin on a platter for the rest of the world to devour, in court all the same.

Im not suggesting "executing" him in the street just like Gaddafi.

A few million Ukraine's might want a hold of him all the same just to have a word in his shell.

Nothing we can do about that really after all he's made his bed, time for him to die in it.

a reply to: andy06shake

The why equates to Putin's wet dream of a return of his nation to former CCCP type glory that is never going to materialise.

Agree in sentiment but I don't belive thats why theyre in ukraine now as it's just a dream. The guy aint getting any younger and if you notice the controlled areas, those being to the east and south bridging into Crimea. I'm of the belief that's what hes ulitmately after.

As to a strategy for eliminating, well Russia could go back home and offer up Putin on a platter for the rest of the world to devour, in court all the same.

That amounts to the same dream of pootins ussr. So, non sequitur.

Nothing we can do about that really after all he's made his bed, time for him to die in it.

I don't disagree. I would only add that the west certainly provided the sheets.

I think you understand the nuance. Further western escalation, especially NATO countries intensifies and is an obvious path to WWIII. Doing nothing allows pootin to essentially steal what isn't his, like crimea (which didn't see this type of response mind you)

Both result in massive civilian casualties regardless. So, diplomacy is in order, I think youd agree.

To that is where my position comes in. We have been escalating instead of opting for diplomacy. NATO carrots as it were while at the same time turning a blind eye to the political cesspool that has been raking in the cash.

a reply to: JinMI


The madman in russia has delusions about putting the ussr band back together.

No other reason.


Ukraine and the planet are demonstrating that 'strategy' right now.

a reply to: JinMI

I understand what happens if we go to far with our support for Ukraine.

We get to find out what Putin's nukes taste like, or more likely, Ukraine gets to find out what chemical attack feels like first.

I understand the bastard has to appear to save face, cant see how all the same.

Cooler heads need to prevail, or someone on his own team needs to shoot Putin in the melon and we get to deal with what ever that produces.

They need to come to the peace table simple as that really, or not as the case may be.

a reply to: andy06shake

I understand what happens if we go to far with our support for Ukraine.

Not that is indeed an accurate and powerful statement.

Then we get to discuss what "too far" entails and by whos measure.

That same vitriol you have towards pootin, warranted as it may be, is also a reflection of many in russia toward the west.

Seems if we want cooler heads, the west needs to back up and allow for the sovereign nation of Ukraine and russia come to terms instead of providing anything to its own ends.

When, if, they can do that, then the west can participate, and we both know they will.

a reply to: andy06shake

Something like that, yes.

a reply to: JinMI


putin is the hotheaded madman everyone is worried about, the west has nothing to do with that.

Only putin can decide when he's destroyed enough of Ukraine to satisfy his appetite, Ukraine and the West have very little to do with it.

a reply to: JinMI

The "West" don't want to participate JinMI that's the point.

I think its quite clear given Russia's debacle in Ukraine that NATO forces would wipe the floor with them both in the air and on the ground given there antics and what we have seen thus far.

Any idea what would happen to a 40km 4 trucks deep convoy presented to any nation on earth with any sort of air power?

If in doubt look what happened to saddam's forces in retreat, one big line of glowing scrap mettle.

Russia canny even lace Ukraine boots and they are not up for lying down and taking them off nether and Putin knows it just fine now.

Lets just hope he keeps the head and comes to his senses or the peace table at least because conventional warfare is no longer his nations strength.

originally posted by: JinMI

Both result in massive civilian casualties regardless. So, diplomacy is in order, I think youd agree.

To that is where my position comes in. We have been escalating instead of opting for diplomacy. NATO carrots as it were while at the same time turning a blind eye to the political cesspool that has been raking in the cash.

Russia's army has shown their cards and they are total #. They already lost the war in Ukraine and most likely will back off and stabilize the area they have been fighting a proxy war in these last 8 years. Putin took Crimea because he wanted to secure the naval footprint there, whatever else he said was just an excuse. With Ukraine, it is all about securing a direct route to EU to supply energy. Ukraine didn't take his offer to transport energy through their country so he decided to take the country thinking it would be an easy 2-day event. Adding it back as a satellite country from the old USSR and reaping all the natural resources was just icing on the cake.

He is in deep do do now as nothing has gone as he thought it would,

originally posted by: JinMI

That same vitriol you have towards pootin, warranted as it may be, is also a reflection of many in russia toward the west.

Except, Ukraine and the west didn't invade anyone. So fu@k their vitriol.

originally posted by: JinMI

Seems if we want cooler heads, the west needs to back up and allow for the sovereign nation of Ukraine and russia come to terms instead of providing anything to its own ends.

Yes, because appeasement of terrorists always works. Putin only understands one language: force.

originally posted by: JinMI

When, if, they can do that, then the west can participate, and we both know they will.

What do you mean "when if", we've been "doing that" since December, and if you want to REALLY be technical about it, we've been "doing that" since 2014. Sounds to me as though it's time for a different tac.

originally posted by: JinMI

Seems if we want cooler heads, the west needs to back up and allow for the sovereign nation of Ukraine and russia come to terms instead of providing anything to its own ends.

When, if, they can do that, then the west can participate, and we both know they will.

So let's say Poland is next then what? So we say oh no he still has nukes and we play once again the "back up and allow for the sovereign nation of Poland and Russia to come to terms instead of providing anything to its own ends. "?

The # is going to get deep one way or another....

a reply to: alphabetaone

Yes, because appeasement of terrorists always works. Putin only understands one language: force.

So it wont work this time either then yea? Or it will? Either way, same MO.

What do you mean "when if", we've been "doing that" since December, and if you want to REALLY be technical about it, we've been "doing that" since 2014. Sounds to me as though it's time for a different tac.

We backed off? Source required.

Except, Ukraine and the west didn't invade anyone. So fu@k their vitriol.

Yea, I know. So we should just go ahead and level moscow then, right?

a reply to: Xtrozero

Poland has the advantage of being in NATO. So there's at least that.

If we want to play the what if game, then nothing stops now.

The # is going to get deep one way or another....

Agreed. The chitty thing is, civilian casualties are a uniform effect.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: alphabetaone
Yea, I know. So we should just go ahead and level moscow then, right?

Still not paying attention?

The West doesn't want war with russia, even after russia invaded a non threatening neighbor again.

russia should stop destroying Ukraine and go home, we aren't going to get baited into a russian war.