Saving UKRAINE is NOT Worth a War Between the USA and RUSSIA.

a reply to: marg6043

The thing is, the rest of the world no longer cares about the bizarre world of American politics.

Absolutely anything and everything is turned around and made into an American centric issue.
And one's take on it depends purely on one's predisposed party allegiance.

So many Americans just can't help but turn this into an American issue.
People who I've read for years preaching about anti-authoritarianism suddenly supporting Putin - an authoritarian tyrant - simply so that they can turn it around and somehow blame Biden.

I have honestly seen quite a few people individually accuse Biden of all of the things I mentioned above, without giving much if any evidence of any of them other than their own partisan views.
"The worlds gone tits up so it must be Biden's fault".

I think AM summed it up perfectly well in this post;
www.abovetopsecret.com...
"It's the fault of 100% binary US political indoctrination. You'd chop off your own head if it meant you could spite the other party."

Stout defenders of Freedom, Libertarian values and basic inalienable Rights defending a de facto dictator who is brutally suppressing all opposition domestically, who has invaded a foreign country and is using the threat of nuclear war to bully and intimidate the world and hold it to ransom....all to feed and justify their own anti-Biden obsession.

It defies all reason and logic.

a reply to: carewemust
Maybe Ronald coincidentally spoiled the beans to say that this force thats already among us is the cause of all what we've witnessed our whole lives, by the media and infiltrated governments but we just can't lift their veils because they're simply much smarter then us, to lift their veils ?

a reply to: Freeborn

The RussoUkranian war is not new, is not modern the history goes back quite a few decades, people forgot that Ukraine once used to belong to Russia, western nations and EU has been trying for a while to dissolve Russia, in my view a big country like that, just like China are view as a danger of "democracy" western style.

It will not be the first time and will not be the last, only a coup from withing Russia will brake the nation, I am sure that is entities working on just that, let the people of Russia decide, no foreign influences.

a reply to: carewemust

Cool story bro. So should I just summarize your position as someone else's suffering shouldn't affect my comfort?

I follow a young Ukrainian woman who posts updates from inside her country. She is passionately in love with her country and very patriotic to its survival.

This is a comment she left today in response to one of her followers:

I am stopping myself every time I want to use offensive language in relation to the Russian criminals or post something that would play to their hand. I am constantly reporting Russian chats. For example yesterday they all cheered and were ecstatic about Stoltenberg’s statement that NATO will not be interfering in Russo-Ukrainian war and I posted about it. Translated their snug commens. I then deleted the post because I realized that that’s exactly what Putin wants - to engage NATO into this war and turn it into WW3. So I took down the post because after conversation with my mother we came to the conclusion that it’s better for Ukrainian nation to sacrifice itself protecting ourselves and the rest of the world rather than ask for NATO’s intervention which will start WW3. This is the fate we were granted with by God and we accept it. We as a nation will not perish. We will protect ourselves and the world from these atrocities Putin is lusting for.

This is just one Ukrainian citizen (well, 2 if you count her mother). This woman has her whole life ahead of her and she is willing to go down rather than call for help that could lead to endangering the rest of the world.

I don't think the Ukrainian citizens are gonna owe anybody anything after this deal. But we're sure going to owe them.

a reply to: Freeborn

The thing is, the rest of the world no longer cares about the bizarre world of American politics.

I would say that the rest of the world no longer respects the corrupt world of American politics.

Absolutely anything and everything is turned around and made into an American centric issue.
And one's take on it depends purely on one's predisposed party allegiance.

So many Americans just can't help but turn this into an American issue.

Calling out the US contributions (for want of a better word) in the events which have directly brought us to this point is NOT making it into an "American centric" issues. It is recognizing and acknowledging that this did not happen in a vacuum. While I understand those who live in partisan echo chambers will only see this from a partisan perspective, some of us are not so confined with self-imposed blinders.

People who I've read for years preaching about anti-authoritarianism suddenly supporting Putin - an authoritarian tyrant - simply so that they can turn it around and somehow blame Biden.

Seems to me exactly the opposite. Lots of folks suddenly support Biden and making war simply so that they can blame Putin. I have not seen one person "supporting" Putin here, nor pretty much anywhere else. No one needs to "turn" anything "around" to call out Biden for what Biden has said and done. It is possible for more than one person to be guilty of wrongdoing in this and any/all matters. It is also possible for everyone to recognize and acknowledge it. Not common, obviously, but it is possible.

a reply to: Boadicea

"I have not seen one person "supporting" Putin here ".

There's quite a few posting endless pro Putin propoganda on here and quite a few mocking/hating on Zelensky, too.

Not sure how you might not have noticed?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Boadicea

"I have not seen one person "supporting" Putin here ".

There's quite a few posting endless pro Putin propoganda on here and quite a few mocking/hating on Zelensky, too.

Not sure how you might not have noticed?

If by "pro Putin" you mean anything and everything "anti official narrative," then of course I've noticed -- and read many of them and (gasp!) posted a few myself.

But you knew that already, eh?

However, I did misspeak, because there is one notable exception who has posted supporting Russia/Putin. And it is very clear that this poster is supporting Putin/Russia. So my apologies for that. Oddly enough, though, that one poster has never responded to my posts in their threads... not even once!

I get that lots of folks want us folks to STFU. But it's not going to happen so it's not going to work. Just like it didn't work with Covid. Or with election fraud. Or anything else.

Rather than trying to shut us up, I would suggest that differing viewpoints (which don't just call us "Putin lovers" and "Russian propaganda" spreaders) actually engage in the discussions to address the points -- and issues -- brought up, and we can actually discuss it from all sides and angles and perspectives to give everyone greater perspective and understanding.

I had another point, got distracted, and it's completely slipped my mind. When it comes back to me, I might come back to this

a reply to: Valhall

That is a fact!

They owe us nothing. If they win the day, they will have done so as a nation. But we do owe them, for laying the groundwork that created this in the first place, for not supporting them in the intervening years and not deterring Putin.

Sadly, the time to act was a year ago (or 5/8). If we do something now, we get into a shooting war with nuclear Russia and are the aggressors at that. If we had been in the country, and not evacuated, it would’ve forced Russia to fire on us first and Putin would’ve been in the same bad position Biden finds himself in now

Either way, Ukrainians should always be known as warriors. Brave souls. The kind of bravery allied countries showed in WW2. The dedication and sacrifice it took to beat a truly overwhelming enemy. Something the US lost a long time ago. Ukraine has it. Whatever “it” is

a reply to: Boadicea

Only one?!!!!!

Not trying to shut you up at all.

a reply to: Freeborn

You are spot on

And it’s exactly what the left did to Trump. Play by play.

It was pathetic then and it’s pathetic now. But can you blame them in the modern age of retaliation and cancellation? If you show weakness they’ll eat you alive, so what other choice is there?

We Republicans just went through 4 torturous years of screeching about some made up “collusion” that never happened. Putin this, Putin that is all we heard on the 24/7 news cycle. So we tuned out, knowing it was all lies from the start. And now half this country does not and will not believe anything they say. And it’s their own fault. They should’ve thought of the consequences

Maybe throwing away the entire US just to keep false hope of “indictments and controversies” alive wasn’t worth it after all. We tried to tell them

Maybe Biden and Pelosi should’ve spent the last year mending the bridges they burnt with HALF THE COUNTRY instead of droning on about Jan6 (tepid compared to the RIOTS they endorsed) or trying to get evening news “zingers” on the former President they are still obsessed with. MAYBE then we’d believe them. But that’s too late. Maybe we’ll believe them in the NEXT crisis if they make amends, a reckoning occurs for all the lies etc. But not until that happens

From the start my opinion has been that it's not our monkeys, not our circus. Following the multi-generational quagmire that was the middle-eastern conflicts I just felt that America needed a break, let geo-politics work themselves out without our influence and interference for a bit. Recently, my thought are shifting on Ukraine. Perhaps it's just from too many nights laying awake pontificating not on whataboutisms, but if/thens. If no other country had come to America's call for help then her own sovereignty would have been forfeit.

By the time Philadelphia was lost in the summer of 1777, America was on the ropes. Other than a few minor skirmishes, we were losing decisively. New York, Boston and the aforementioned Philadelphia were stunning losses that gave the appearance that all would eventually be lost for the errant British colony. Then came victory at Saratoga. The impetus that caused France, who was helping with financing and arms from the start, to decide that America deserved a chance at self determination. The rest, as they say, is history. It was an American/French force that sacked Corwallis in Yorktown that effectively ended the war.

Without the help from France, our Republic would never have come to fruition. So, my question....Do the people of Ukraine deserve their own chance at self determination?

a reply to: Moon68

When you put it that way…YES!

They do deserve it. More than we do now, even.

The question is…can we give it to them? If you would’ve asked before we prematurely evacuated, I’d have said yes. But now? I don’t see how

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Only one?!!!!!

Yup -- that I've seen.

I've seen plenty of people call out the bad behavior of others in many ways and on many levels. And I've seen plenty of people speak for the peaceful diplomatic approach vs the saber rattling and warmongering approach. I've seen plenty of people point out that Russia isn't the only one who has committed some of these acts we're now wringing our hands over. And I've seen plenty of people point out the many violent aggressions committed by Ukraine forces in the last ten years. But that's about it.

That's just reality.

Not trying to shut you up at all.

Understood that you, personally, are not. But others sure are and have.

a reply to: JBurns

I get that, might not agree with some of it but I certainly understand it.

But this IS NOT about US domestic politics.

Sure, some of Biden's policies and behaviour may have contributed to the current crisis.
But so have ALL of his recent predecessors to varying degrees.

And I hasten to add so have those of the leaders and policy makers of most NATO/EU aligned nations in recent years.

Biden is being blamed for being too weak, too aggressive. For being pro-Chinese, pro-Ukraine, pro-Putin.
He can't be all of them.
I get the impression some people are just slinging mud indiscriminately in the hope that anything sticks...as long as it tarnishes Biden who cares about accuracy?

Passionate supporters of the Republican ideal, of inalienable Rights and Libertarian values...of Freedom, who have been ardent opponents of Putin and authoritarianism are all of a sudden pro-Putin, a man who is the very definition of authoritarian tyranny.
Quite the curious and baffling U-turn.

Of course domestic politics is important to all of you and I am sure many of the points you have raised are valid and maybe just.
But its so incredibly frustrating and even annoying when trying to discuss something and the 'usual suspects' simply have to turn the debate into yet another 'What about Biden', 'If only Trump'. 'Biden this', 'In America' thread regardless of relevance.

The world truly is baffled at the nature of US politics, but that's entirely up to you guys.

Hopefully I've managed to explain things without being insulting etc....or going too far off topic.

Always good to chat and discuss things with you.
Definitely one of the good guys.

a reply to: Freeborn

Oh I agree with that 100%, to say it is just Biden is way off. I would say we maybe have 20% of the blame, and Putin the other 80%. Poor Ukraine has the least fault. I don’t consider self determination and independence to be a threat, unless your goal is to deny someone self determination, which it is clear Putin does

The party system itself has failed the US badly. Most of us don’t yet have groups to associate with one another outside of the party context but the parties themselves are worthless. We had 40 years to help rebuild Russia, bring them into the fold, lift up the former USSR states. But for some reason we let it pass us by

Letting inept leaders like W Shrub 2 get us into ridiculously unjustified wars. We were asleep at the wheel myself included. I supported both wars at the time

I appreciate your kind reply Freeborn 😁 Any frustration on my end is the fact it has even gotten this far at all.

a reply to: Freeborn

I don’t blame you guys 😁 WE are baffled at our own politics

It is like the Twilight zone. At least when you get random people together at events or on the Web. But if I were to go to the store, everything seems perfectly normal. I don’t get it, either people are putting on an act or things aren’t as crazy as they seem but heck if I know

I understand the frustration. It is hard to get anywhere it seems. Fortunately there are still open minded folks out there willing to debate and not just peddle crap 😁 Always nice to chat with you too

Take my party affiliation for instance. It many ways, it doesn’t make sense. Although they’ve done better reaching out to people who work for a living, they have historically represented monied interests. Which probably 99.9% of us GOP voters are not, so in a lot of ways it’s against our interests. But they do it by latching onto other issues, passing the buck. Maybe it’s about the second amendment, or even more abstract things like some of the recent pseudo controversies have revealed (and it’s always pseudo outrage it seems) I can’t keep up 😛 It’s probably controlled opposition, it can’t be random that our voters are near evenly divided.

To me, it benefits overtly rich people and it benefits those who enjoy power as an end to its own. But it benefits surprisingly few actual voters. Even when the Dems took control after the past election losses, what really changed? The same arguments and the same problems just different excuses for why the rich get richer and they eat away more of our rights

I think or I hope people are waking up to this reality. Right now many still see it as a left vs right thing because they don’t know how to see it in any other light. But I think we are getting there

a reply to: JBurns

The party system itself has failed the US badly.

You're not alone in that.
The UK party political system has failed and is no longer fit-for-purpose.

Personally I've never aligned with any one specific political party, its far too restrictive and leads to narrow minded thinking.
Just my take on things....a discussion for less troubled times.

We had 40 years to help rebuild Russia, bring them into the fold, lift up the former USSR states. But for some reason we let it pass us by

The Gods of Profit and Free Enterprise....and Putin and the oligarchs stepped into the void.

Letting inept leaders like W Shrub 2 get us into ridiculously unjustified wars. We were asleep at the wheel myself included. I supported both wars at the time

Mea Culpa.
Another discussion for another time and place.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

s". We didn't go to war in WWII over Poland, we went to war over ideals and the preservation of a way of life.

Historically, we went to war because Japan attacked us directly at Pearl Harbor.

originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Freeborn

CNN BANNER right now: TALKS UNDER WAY TO RELOCATE UKRAINE's GOVERNMENT TO POLAND.

What does that mean? Is that why VP Kamala Harris is going to Poland on Wednesday?

Could it mean the current U.S. Government is secretly (and oppositely aka "the pattern") supporting the Russian Government ?

Sure looks like it don't it 😵

Biden did talk to Putin, right before the invasion... Maybe they made a secret comrade pack? If you look at the readout of Biden’s call with Putin there are no transcripts, only press releases.

Makes one go Hmmm... rubs chin scratches head. ☭ 🤡🌎