Ukraine against its own citizens

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

Im just me Boadicea, nothing more nothing less.

As we all are in the final analysis.

Simple logic dictates that a nation that invades and occupies the other is the aggressor, so there is that.

Please. You damn well know that it's not that simple. Provocation is a moral and legal factor. Russia's bad behavior does not in any way, shape or form excuse the bad behavior of others.

Its not me that's got a problem with communism as its simply an ideology and form of control same as democracy.

You on the other hand, you would boil them in oil would you not?

Nope. I have no idea how you flipped so quickly from calling me a communist from the last century to now me being a wannbe commie-boiling-in-oil hater, but you're wrong on both counts.

As to American values, which ones in particular do you mean, and be specific if you can manage such?

Not only can I manage such, I already did... and you told me that you couldn't recognize them because you're not an American. I'll take you at your word, and save myself the trouble, since you apparently can't manage such.

See those values which you seem to hold so dear to your heart probably came from somewhere else originally, just like the majority of the people and families in the USA , given that your nation is only 244 years old.

Yes, those values came to me via the Founding Fathers and our Founding documents, as espoused by John Locke and others. I am quite well aware how my values developed over centuries.

Labels are important Boadicea, especially when we take them away or remove the warning ones.

Labels have a place... when they serve a practical purpose, such as a warning.

But not people.

a reply to: Boadicea


"that 'good reason' may have been real to Putin, but only a bluff to provoke him"



The putin idiot forgot that they were his own lies to begin with.

Insane folks tend to do that.



Everyone else went to GREAT lengths to make sure that we did NOT 'provoke' him.

Nobody was 'arming' Ukraine, and NATO had NO interest at all in accepting Ukraine as a member.

a reply to: Boadicea

What's simple Boadicea is the fact that Russia is the aggressor and Putin in the wrong.

Simply put Russia should go back home and end the conflict before more people die.

Anyroad you still don't have that proof you are after and never lightly will, and labels are indeed important.

As to people, i tend to agree, although personally i think Putin's place looks like it should be a mental asylum.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

What's simple Boadicea is the fact that Russia is the aggressor and Putin in the wrong.

Simply put Russia should go back home and end the conflict before more people die.

That would definitely be the easiest way out of this... We can also take a lesson from Macron and Bennett (Israel) and act like reasonable, rational adults who sit down and discuss the issues, and try to find a middle ground -- at least enough for a ceasefire. If we offered reasonable concessions -- even if only as a short-term remedy until long-term solutions can be put in place -- and if Russia rejected those attempts to find a middle ground and a ceasefire for the purpose of negotiations, THEN we could say, "Look, we tried. Russia is just hellbent on war and all we can do is fight fire with fire."

But we have not tried or offered anything in the interests of saving lives and stopping the killing and mayhem. We've done exactly the opposite.

Anyroad you still don't have that proof you are after and never lightly will...

As I've stated repeatedly. There is no proof hence why we cannot know and do not know. If I had proof, then I would know.

As to people, i tend to agree, although personally i think Putin's place looks like it should be a mental asylum.

Or a nursing home for mentally impaired elderly perhaps... That's a distinct possibility.

a reply to: Boadicea

Should we really be trying to appease lunatics that threaten nuclear armageddon when the invasion of a neighbour goes awry all the same?

Where does that one end?

How long is that piece of string? LoL

As to middle ground im all for that but fact is Putin is trying to save face, and given the current predicament, im not exactly sure that's possible.

He should be ""replaced"" by his own troops or people, as its the only way he does not become a martyr to the madness he's attempting to perpetrate.

a reply to: RussianTroll



Some of them are like the 3 wee monkeys, hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

Then again a few wrong words or an opinion may well get them 15 years in the clink, suppose that may influence there words or lack of such.

Tragic really considering what's happening a few hundred miles distant.

Imagine when it comes to there own doorstep through.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

Should we really be trying to appease lunatics that threaten nuclear armageddon when the invasion of a neighbour goes awry all the same?

Taking your question at face value, if it saves lives, then HELL YES!!! It is obviously only one step of many to address such a situation properly, because preserving lives is the absolute number one priority.

However, I am not convinced that accurately describes this situation. I have clearly stated that provocation is a well-established and long-standing legal and moral justification, as is self-defense. (Both of which, technically, are the exact same legal and moral justification being used to promote retaliation rather than negotiation). You have chosen to ignore and/or deny this, but I'm not, and plenty of others are not.

As to middle ground im all for that but fact is Putin is trying to save face, and given the current predicament, im not exactly sure that's possible.

It may or may not be possible. None of us know until it's given an honest try.

He should be ""replaced"" by his own troops or people, as its the only way he does not become a martyr to the madness he's attempting to perpetrate.

I truly dread the thought of Putin being assassinated for that very reason. Doesn't matter who did the dirty deed, Putin would become a martyr, he might very well be replaced by someone worse who would now be hellbent on avenging his murder, and it would only make matters existentially worse. For everyone.

a reply to: Boadicea

Im all for honest try.

Thing is when the man you are dealing with has been telling porkpies since long before he invaded and refuses to call it such its kind of hard to establish a dialog that's going anywhere meaningful i suppose.

The table thing is weird, have to wonder exactly what the hell that's all about???

The mans quite clearly a few tins short of a six pack Boadicea, how exactly do you deal with that kind of individual wielding so much power?

a reply to: Boadicea


Nonsense.

Zelinsky has tried negotiate with the putin idiot.



russia insists on Ukrainian surrender to be part of mother russia.

Zelinsky said immediately remove all russians from all Ukraine.

Zelinsky also asked for and putin promised safe corridors for civilians to escape the cities that russians are indiscriminately bombing.

Then russia bombed those 'safe corridors' while civilians were trying to escape.

Not really anything else to discuss now, is there?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

Im all for honest try.

Thing is when the man you are dealing with has been telling porkpies since long before he invaded and refuses to call it such its kind of hard to establish a dialog that's going anywhere meaningful i suppose.

Unfortunately, Putin isn't the only one doing that. I know I can't trust Biden for the same reason -- and plenty of additional reasons. From what I hear, lots of Brits don't trust Boris for the same reason -- and plenty of additional reasons (although I'm not so familiar with all the whys and wherefores with Boris).

Hence the distrust of so many with the official narrative being given.

Everyone needs to do better.

ETA: I should add that where I'm at in my head right now, I think Biden in specific and the US in general are too deeply involved in this to be part of any negotiating team. I'm not sure who exactly is or would be the right persons, but Biden/US have clear conflicts of interests. I'm not sure Zelensky is either. He seems to be saying one thing (by negotiating) and doing another (demanding military aid). I'm not in his shoes, I'm not in his head, but that seems problematic to me. I know Macron and Bennett have spoken with Putin. That gives me hope that Putin is still willing to talk. When he refuses to even talk, my danger level will be at red.

The table thing is weird, have to wonder exactly what the hell that's all about???

I've read for years that Putin (like Trump) is quite the germaphobe. That's all I can think of.

The mans quite clearly a few tins short of a six pack Boadicea, how exactly do you deal with that kind of individual wielding so much power?

Very carefully. Obviously!!!

originally posted by: Boadicea

This was never going to end well for Putin. He does not seem to be at all up to the challenge of what he's attempting. He doesn't seem to have the properly trained manpower, the properly maintained equipment, nor a properly prepared and executed plan of action. That leads me to one of two best guesses: This was either a last minute act of desperation born of paranoia... or Putin had good reason to think something much worse would happen and this was a desperate act of self-defense. And that "good reason" may have been real to Putin, but only a bluff to provoke him.

As I said, I don't think Putin has any concerns about being attack, he has been basically king for 20+ years now with no one willing to challenge him and the few in the past did not last long, and I think that is what led to all this in he has always had the attitude of who dares to challenge me.

I had lunch with a dear friend today. He was born in Ukraine and he was a Mig pilot back in the 80s and escaped on foot through forest for 7 days. Today he is a airline pilot, but he said that back then the people were no different with Russia and them, all the same. The problem is that Russia still see them as Russian and so hard to fight them, but Ukrainians under 35 only see themselves as Ukrainian and Russians are not the good guys to them. He said that Russia's only move now to save anything they can is to remove Putin, nothing else will work, and there is a good chance the oligarchy will take him out and say we got rid of the bad man give us our money and worldly freedoms back.

a reply to: Xtrozero

As I just stated in another response, I think the idea of "just" taking Putin out and everything will all be hunky dory is naive at best. We have no idea who would take his place, but we know that he would become a martyr, and perhaps be hellbent to avenge Putin's death.

At the same time, Putin is not going to back down in any way, he can only be pacified -- and I mean that in its literal sense, as in giving him what he needs to not feel the need to wage war any more. First temporarily, in order to call for a ceasefire and further negotiations.

Long-term is more difficult. Perhaps impossible. For example, Putin will not back down regarding NATO/EU membership for Ukraine. And I honestly don't know if Ukraine would be willing to give up its aspiration of NATO/EU membership in order to keep Putin pacified. If Ukrane insists -- and NATO/EU agrees -- then we'll be right back where we are.

In that case, the negotiating time will at least give us enough time to come up with a Plan B...

a reply to: Boadicea

Seen this yet?



Gets interesting about 5 minute mark, someone else posted it on another thread.

Certainly an eye opener if true.

a reply to: andy06shake

I haven't watched it myself, just read about what they said. Nothing would surprise me at this point, including this. But neither would it surprise me if its coerced (they are captives after all), or Ukraine soldiers pretending to be Russian soldiers, or filmed entirely on a set in Hollywood with crisis actors.

Anything is possible for all I know.

a reply to: andy06shake


I HIGHLY recommend watching the Entire video.

A russian lt colonel is saying EXACTLY the same things we have since day 1.

He also confirms quite a few things that folks think I'm crazy for saying.

Absolute game changer if this gets into the hands of russian soldiers and civilians.

a reply to: Boadicea

Well we know what the poor dude wants for Christmas anyway.

If they are Russian soldiers or Police, there should be records to establish there identity and people who recognise them.

My bet is they are the real deal and not crisis actors.

As to what possible, god knows on that score Boadicea, this world is balmy or at least some peeps sure are.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

Well we know what the poor dude wants for Christmas anyway.

That we do!

If they are Russian soldiers or Police, there should be records to establish there identity and people who recognise them.

I've kind of been waiting for some kind of response from Russia, which might tell us much. Or nothing at all. I do think about any family back in Russia who would suffer the consequences from a captured soldier making such claims. Would Putin forgive them being under duresss? I just don't see that happening. I think Putin would demand nothing less than complete resistance and defiance. Anything less would be treason and no mercy. So if true, this worries me for his family's sake.

As to what possible, god knows on that score Boadicea, this world is balmy or at least some peeps sure are.

Yup.

a reply to: RussianTroll

For what it's worth , I think anyone who targets Russia or Russians during this time is a brainwashed TWIT! They are heartless cowards are doing what the MSM tells them to do and think.
The world is constantly busy with political wars when we should be focused on the class war : 1%ers vs 99%ers
Which is also , more specifically , the 1%ers doing everything they can to destroy and demoralize us 99%ers

The problem with America's fighting machine is we are unwilling to do what would of been necessary to totally change Afghanistan. That part is ugly as in kill every male over the age of 12 type ugly and then create schools to reconstruct the population over the next 20 years with the young learning a different way. We never should have gone into Afghanistan since we had no plan afterwards that we would be willing to do.

Holy hell man! Is it really that bad? Im laughin my arse off but its a serious question.I was aware of the radicalization of their males by the taliban.
Are the Mountain people the same? Is there anywhere in that place where their actual culture still exists?

a reply to: ancientlight



Yup we're all gonna get out of the way of your putin idiot while he violently invades a peaceful neighbor that posed ZERO threat to russia.


Nyet.


We've just barely started, and plan to continue for decades if necessary.

Until russia surrenders.