Why are atheist so angry with God?

a reply to: Joecroft
I think the OP tipped his hand in the previous post where he made it clear that in his opinion only christians are gods children and everyone else can go to hell, literally.

What I think is funny is that I bet they don't even realize what they post is actually proving our points. I used the figure of speech "good friends" to point out that these two "enemies" seem to be working together.

"Show me where it says they are good friends in the bible" they asked and then they posted a verse that says god sends a strong delusion to non-believers so that they will believe satan. If that isn't working together then what is?

Even their lip service about praying for those non-believers and making this thread hoping that some atheists might heed the call of god falls flat when that same god isn't calling but instead making them believe satan.

Even cooperton's "But I don't see God interrupting free will. Is there persuasion? Absolutely." is rather weak.

Like persuasion from the most high would be like some late night infomercial that makes you think about calling but you just shrug it off before turning off the TV and going to sleep.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: sine.nomine
No true God would put a person in hell.

You mean no sane person would make choices that lead to a hellish existence?

Actually, yes. That's pretty much how I see it.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: neoholographic

God is outside of space and time so he knows who's going to make the choice

There's people who use their free will to reject God.

How has any person got freewill.... if god already knows who is going to make the choice?

As I explained earlier, you can have knowledge of the choice a person will make and they still have the freewill to make that choice.

So if I had a time machine and I travelled 6 months into the future. I then see a friend buy a house. I go back in time to the point where I left. Six months later my friend buys the house. I know she was going to buy the house but she still had the free will choice to buy the house.

a reply to: daskakik

Originally posted by daskakik
And here you are posting that the strong delusion comes from god. If you can't see that contradiction/loop hole in the plot it is because you are under a strong delusion yourself.

You hit the nail on the head with this one

Well said…

Originally posted by daskakik
I think the OP tipped his hand in the previous post where he made it clear that in his opinion only christians are gods children and everyone else can go to hell, literally.

Exactly…not only are people up against Satan working in the shadows, but to make matters worse, God is also supposedly sending people a Strong Delusion…if that isn’t infringing on freewill, then I don’t know what is!...so much for saving souls…I’d rather just stick with Jesus on his own merits and teachings etc…

Because when you contrast the above with Jesus teachings/parables about people seeking the truth…and how the truth can set people free…it’s a completely different message…that benefits the whole…

Personally, I find Paul’s writings to be speaking with a forked tongue most of the time…it’s like political spin…praising the name of Jesus on the one hand but promoting another agenda on the other!

Anybody that’s ever done research into CIA deceptive techniques, will know that they mix truth with lies and then try to pass everything off as truth…

This is a conspiracy theory website after all (check)

Originally posted by daskakik
What I think is funny is that I bet they don't even realize what they post is actually proving our points. I used the figure of speech "good friends" to point out that these two "enemies" seem to be working together.

"Show me where it says they are good friends in the bible" they asked and then they posted a verse that says god sends a strong delusion to non-believers so that they will believe satan. If that isn't working together then what is?

Yeah, I saw your discussion with the OP…you made some great points…

The Op homing in on the God and Satan being "good friends" aspect, seemed a pretty ridiculous thing to focus on, considering it wasn’t even the main overall point of your question…

Not saying that it isn’t an important aspect though, because God pretty much tells Satan what to do…there’s clearly a working relationship to some extent…but of course God working with Satan seems kinda suspect…Perhaps the Gnostic's were right !

Originally posted by daskakik
Even their lip service about praying for those non-believers and making this thread hoping that some atheists might heed the call of god falls flat when that same god isn't calling but instead making them believe satan.

I’m putting it down to cognitive dissonance…

There’s just no way all these aspects of freewill; God sending a Strong Delusion and Satan being aloud to do his thing…can seriously stand up to any scrutiny…

Most Christians have just accepted a Religion that they believe/think is true…imo

I don’t think Christians have ever even considered the possibility that the Bible is actually a test to find the True God…because surely the narrow path is not something that you just accept…it’s something that you search for, find and then know to be true. It’s described as narrow because few find it!


- JC

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you..."
-- from John 15:16

"...he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."
-- from Eph 1

"...but he that believeth not is condemned already..."
-- from John 3:18

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
-- from Isa 45:7

The argument of fate vs. free will would be rectified, if these goats know their place, full well, and they revel in it.

originally posted by: neoholographic

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: neoholographic

God is outside of space and time so he knows who's going to make the choice

There's people who use their free will to reject God.

How has any person got freewill.... if god already knows who is going to make the choice?

As I explained earlier, you can have knowledge of the choice a person will make and they still have the freewill to make that choice.

So if I had a time machine and I travelled 6 months into the future. I then see a friend buy a house. I go back in time to the point where I left. Six months later my friend buys the house. I know she was going to buy the house but she still had the free will choice to buy the house.

I’ve always thought that. I never understood why people were confused by this.

a reply to: Romeopsi
Are you sure that free will even exists?

I mean.....is there actually someone separate from the body/mind that drives the body/ mind?

Who is driving the dream bus?

I guess I'm mad at unicorns too. DAMN YOU UNICORNS! a reply to: neoholographic

Interesting, how we are told not to place stumbling blocks:

"Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this: place not an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way." Romans 14:13

And this is interesting as well:

"For the lips of a priest should preserve knowledge, and men should seek instruction from his mouth; for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts." Malachi 2:7

Followed by things like:

"Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee." 1st Kings 22:23

"And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." Ezekiel 14:9

Oh, and don't forget to put to death those false prophets, according to Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22, and Zechariah 13:3. To Hell with them!

Question: Who is putting stumbling blocks in front of who? What is a strong delusion and influence of free will, if not a stumbling block?

Question: What about the men and woman who have had these lying spirits given to them, by God himself? What chance do they have for redemption and forgiveness? Where is their love and mercy? Where is their sliver of free will?

Question: How am I supposed to determine if the OP and likeminded posters, aren't false prophets, given lying spirits from their Lord?

Question: To the OP and likeminded posters, how do you know, you, haven't been sent strong delusions or lying spirits?

Link to random old thread I made about God's Morality (or lack thereof)

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I have a question, where is the stumbling block?

I noticed you excluded other versus.

Ezekiel 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:

8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God.

In Ezekiel, he was punishing Israel for their transgressions. They were following idols and listening to any and everyone that came into their midst. An earlier verse says this:

Ezekiel 14:5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

So again I ask, where's the stumbling block?

1st Kings is dealing with the death of Ahab who was a horrible King. Earlier, he was with Jezebel who had her idolatry and led people astray.

How is it a stumbling block when Micaiah the Prophet told Ahab he would die if he went to battle with Ramoth-gilead?

God knew that Ahab wouldn't listen. God also knew that Ahab wouldn't change. So it was his time to die. Where's the stumbling block?

The problem you guys are having is, you read some atheists website, because I hear the same examples over and over again, that tells you this verse is a plot hole or loophole. When you read the verse and how it ties into the Word of God as a whole, you're plot hole falls flat and you have created a stumbling block of ignorance for yourself.

a reply to: neoholographic

My dude, God is the guy going to NA to talk people into buying methamphetamines.

Your entire argument boils down to, "they were already sinners" so it's okay.

So, than you acknowledge God plays with free will?

A simple YES, or a simple NO.

I'm not interested in the reasons. When the entire argument is about how much he cherishes free will or not. Sit here and tell us all it was all our choices, and act like God had nothing to do with it? Verses state otherwise, whatever their context.

For the record I don't go to 'atheist websites' or the like. Least not often. And certainly not nasty hateful ones. No, I came to these conclusions on my own after being a Christian and raising objective, reasonable questions.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

You said there was a stumbling block. Where's the stumbling block?

If there's no stumbling block, be honest and say you were wrong then I will answer your other question.

Waiting.......

a reply to: neoholographic

In my opinion, the stumbling block would be the influencing of our free will. Hardening Pharaoh's heart. A stumbling block against Pharaoh. Sending strong delusions, so that whomever may believe a lie and be damned, a stumbling block. Sending lying spirits into the mouths of prophets and condemning them for their blasphemies, a stumbling block (and against those their words influenced).

Sure, an omniscient God can see the course of all lives, see their hearts, as the Bible states. So why the need to send the strong delusions, or lying spirits, if they are damned anyway? What's the point?

And again, where is that free will argument, if not out the window?

If Pharaoh was never going to let the people go, why the need to harden his heart against it?

Do you see my perspective here?

Even says, he will harden Pharaoh's heart, so that he doesn't let the people go.

Gist is this, IMO.

Nobody, you or I, can make an argument about free will being free, if there is even ONE example of the divine manipulating it, in any context, for any reason. It tells me that not every choice is necessarily free. And using examples of context, where he does it to already sinning people, simply is not fair at all. Because, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, right?

So again... Does God let man have free reign of their free will, or does he not?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

You said:

In my opinion, the stumbling block would be the influencing of our free will. Hardening Pharaoh's heart. A stumbling block against Pharaoh. Sending strong delusions, so that whomever may believe a lie and be damned, a stumbling block. Sending lying spirits into the mouths of prophets and condemning them for their blasphemies, a stumbling block (and against those their words influenced).

The definition of stumbling block:

Definition of stumbling block
1: an obstacle to progress
2: an impediment to belief or understanding :

In the examples you gave, how exactly is it a stumbling block?

You simply dodged the question. In Ezekiel and 1st Kings, how was it a stumbling block as you claimed?

a reply to: neoholographic

Dude just stfu if you're that #ing dense.

If I offer a crack head crack is that positive or negative?

If I suggest the suicide person takes the knife I'm handing them is that positive or negative?

It's called peer pressure. God is the biggest bully.

I don't want to get banned for being so blunt but if it happens so be it.

I cannot believe how big of an discognitive idiot you are.

Look I don't care if your God is real or not.

You are the type that make the elite assholes feel like their ends justify the means.

So instead of you all telling us to go to hell..

Glad you won't be there.

a reply to: neoholographic

You know I'm not at fault if I stand at the bridge and talk someone into jumping off.

It was their choice at the end.

Maybe I should go to the clinic and peer pressure a few abortions. Not my problem if they follow through. It was their decision in the end.

Maybe I should be like a politician and talk your son's and daughters to go murder the children of other innocent ppl. I mean God did so.. it's okay right?

Hey not me to blame if they go rape and murder, they're just following the Bible and God.

Maybe I should peer pressure your kids into drugs? Don't get mad at me bro, they can make their own choices.

Scapegoats up your #ing ass.

The devil, lmao, that ole goat.

SIT HERE AND TELL ME ANY OF THOSE EXAMPLES YOU WOULD BE OKAY WITH IN YOUR LIFE IF SOMEONE WAS PLAYING WITH YOU OR YOURS EMOTIONS, INFLUENCING THEM?

Would that be okay?

NO!

So why is okay for a symbolic storm God from prior religious beliefs that eventually turned into Christianity to do it?

a reply to: neoholographic
Britannica defines stumbling block as:
something that stops you from doing what you want to do
· Lack of funds is a major stumbling block to the project.
· My plans hit a stumbling block.

So if god did something to change what the pharaoh wanted to do, then he placed a stumbling block in the way of what he really wanted to do and that means he interfered with his freewill.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Exhibit A of the angry atheist who arguments fell flat. You said:

Dude just stfu if you're that #ing dense.

I'll pray for you because this is bigger than ego. I can see you're upset because there wasn't any stumbling block in your examples.

a reply to: neoholographic
Actually, there were and you outright dismissed them because it goes against the narrative you are vested in. That is what they meant by you being dense.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I cannot believe how big of an discognitive idiot you are.

At least he has one of the most important parts of life figured out.
And he isn't talking himself out of what actually makes more sense
than anything else the world has to offer. Jesus Christ is a scholarly
fact and no one can make nonsense out what he did or the Bible.

You simply make excuses for yourself by picking apart the written word.

Easily done to all text thru mocking semantics and ignoring context.
You seem pretty harsh on someone who at least is grounded and sure
of what he believes concerning questions that if you aren't, you should
be contemplating out of responsibility to yourself. Neo knows what
he believes and makes it known. You've just picked at that and brought
nothing to the table that's better. And I know you won't ever.