Why are atheist so angry with God?

a reply to: neoholographic
The reason you keep repeating yourself is because you can't see why your answer doesn't really answer the question.

Ephesians 6:11
Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

So, is the bible wrong in these 2 verses? I mean when the point is "the bible contradicts itself" posting verses which show that really isn't an answer.

The question was why would god create this "adversary". The closest thing to an answer was probably "because of free will" and I guess to test people.

In this very post you say:

Secondly, God is outside of space and time so he knows who's going to make the choice not to accept Christ.

If he already knows, what is the point of testing us?

Like you seem to be fond of saying, "That makes no sense".

a reply to: daskakik

Again, the question is asked and answered. The 2 verses you quoted fit perfectly with what I'm saying.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

The 1st part of the question is:

It’s about people losing their Souls because Satan

The Bible doesn't say that believers will lose their souls because of satan. The Bible says they will be tried by satan which goes to the 2 verses you quoted.

In fact, Paul was tormented by a messenger from satan.

2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Nobody has said that satan and demons don't try or "wear out" Christians but that wasn't the question. The question was this:

It’s about people losing their Souls because Satan is aloud to roam around lieing and deceiving people…while God has the power to just get rid of him at any time…God is about saving Souls…so why would God allow that to continue…???

It was about people losing their souls because of satan and the Bible is clear, those who are perishing can have a strong delusion.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

As I said, no loopholes/plot holes and the question has been asked & answered.

originally posted by: neoholographic
Again, the question is asked and answered. The 2 verses you quoted fit perfectly with what I'm saying.

Sorry but no, the question was why create the adversary which allows some to lose their souls and allow them to continue if your goal is to save souls?

It’s about people losing their Souls because Satan is aloud to roam around lieing and deceiving people…while God has the power to just get rid of him at any time…God is about saving Souls…so why would God allow that to continue…???

It was about people losing their souls because of satan and the Bible is clear, those who are perishing can have a strong delusion.

That doesn't exactly put the devil out of his job. So in one part the bible says it is satan that deceives the whole world

Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And here you are posting that the strong delusion comes from god. If you can't see that contradiction/loop hole in the plot it is because you are under a strong delusion yourself.

As I said, no loopholes/plot holes and the question has been asked & answered.

No, they have not, your answers don't really answer anything. In fact, they show the inconsistency I've been talking about all along.

a reply to: daskakik

What inconsistency?

You and the other guy keep saying this but where is it?

He said:

It’s about people losing their Souls because Satan is aloud to roam around lieing and deceiving people…while God has the power to just get rid of him at any time…God is about saving Souls…so why would God allow that to continue…???

It's been asked & answered.

You said:

And here you are posting that the strong delusion comes from god.

Satan can only do what God allows him to do.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

State the inconsistency. You guys are making it up as you go because your arguments fall flat. The fact that you post on this thread more than anyone shows me you retain God in your conscious. You can't stop talking about this non-existent being.

So state the inconsistency exactly. The question was:

It’s about people losing their Souls because Satan is aloud to roam around lieing and deceiving people…while God has the power to just get rid of him at any time…God is about saving Souls…so why would God allow that to continue…???

People aren't losing their souls because of satan. The Bible says those who are perishing will be sent a strong delusion. You're perishing because you rejected the truth of Christ not because of satan.

I have answered this over and over again with the same scriptures.

You guys don't want an answer. You're mad because your plot hole fell flat.

STATE THE INCONSISTENCY

No more gibberesh. Cleary state what's inconsistent.

originally posted by: neoholographic
What inconsistency?

You and the other guy keep saying this but where is it?

Right under your nose. God creates satan and allows him to deceive the world and on top of that, what you posted says, he influences people to believe satan's lies yet he loves us and wants to save us.

Also, what someone said earlier, the bible says he hardened the pharaoh's heart, interfering with his free will, which is something that some people love to claim god gave us.

That is just another simple contradiction for you.

I can't type it any clearer than that.

a reply to: daskakik

Asked and answered. This thread is so long because you and the other guy keep asking the same question. It gets answered and then you act like it was never answered. You said:

Right under your nose. God creates satan and allows him to deceive the world and on top of that, what you posted says, he influences people to believe satan's lies yet he loves us and wants to save us.

There's people who use their free will to reject God. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. Enmity means hatred so those who hate God and reject God can be sent a strong delusion. Asked & answered.

originally posted by: neoholographic
Asked and answered.

No, it isn't answered.

All you have done is post contradictory verses, which pretty much proves the point some of us are trying to make.

There's people who use their free will to reject God. The carnal mind is at enmity with God. Enmity means hatred so those who hate God and reject God can be sent a strong delusion. Asked & answered.

Actually that is just an answer that satisfies you but you posted something that says god sends a strong delusion so that people will believe lies and the lie teller was put here by god. That isn't free will, it is the opposite.

You have not answered why a "loving father" would do this if he wants to save/protect his children. It makes no sense, it is a hole in the plot to do things this way and also claim that god cares about saving your soul.

a reply to: daskakik

I'm done responding to you. Now you're just being obtuse. If you have a new question I might respond but you're just asking the same things and no matter what's said you will say the question wasn't answered.

You said:

That isn't free will, it is the opposite.

You have the free will to acceopt or reject God. Where does the Bible say you if you believe in Christ, you are sent a strong delusion? The Bible says those who reject the truth and who are perishing can receive a strong delusion. This is the umpteenth time this has been explained.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is people who use their free will to reject God. Again:

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

THOSE WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH!

So, I'm done with your questions unless you can show in the Bible where it says those who believe are sent a strong delusion and show me where it says God sends a strong delusion to stop you from believing.

originally posted by: neoholographic
I'm done responding to you. Now you're just being obtuse.

Pot meet kettle.

You have the free will to acceopt or reject God. Where does the Bible say you if you believe in Christ, you are sent a strong delusion? The Bible says those who reject the truth and who are perishing can receive a strong delusion. This is the umpteenth time this has been explained.

And you are still missing the point. Those who reject god are also supposed to be god's children and souls he wants to save but instead he sends a liar to deceive them and then a delusion so that they believe the liar. That is what the verses that you posted say.

So, I'm done with your questions unless you can show in the Bible where it says those who believe are sent a strong delusion and show me where it says God sends a strong delusion to stop you from believing.

You are derping hard.

a reply to: daskakik

Again, you just make it up as you go. You said:

Those who reject god are also supposed to be god's children

No they're not. The Bible says:

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Again, answer these questions or your plot hole falls flat yet again:

So, I'm done with your questions unless you can show in the Bible where it says those who believe are sent a strong delusion and show me where it says God sends a strong delusion to stop you from believing.

originally posted by: neoholographic
No they're not. The Bible says...

And it also says god so loved the world (implying everyone) that he gave his only begotten son.

Then you have Romans 9:8 saying that his children are only Abraham’s offspring. That leaves me out regardless. Looks like yet another contradiction.

Again, answer these questions or your plot hole falls flat yet again:

So, I'm done with your questions unless you can show in the Bible where it says those who believe are sent a strong delusion and show me where it says God sends a strong delusion to stop you from believing.

I never said "those who believe are sent a strong delusion" so there is nothing to answer. That is why I said you were derping hard.

All I said was that god sent a liar and then, what you posted says, he sends a strong delusion to those who reject him. That doesn't sound like he is interested in saving them. What "loving father" acts like that?

That is the hole in the plot.

You rationalized it by saying god knows what you are going to choose, which brings us right back to "then what is the point of the exercise"? Which you can't answer.

a reply to: daskakik

Just as I thought. You have no answer.

You quote half of John 3:16:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

An obvious lie on your part. You didn't post the whole verse because the whole verse answers the question. How dishonest.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him

In Romans, Paul talks about those who believe and have faith are Abraham's seed. Another obvious lie. You said:

You rationalized it by saying god knows what you are going to choose, which brings us right back to "then what is the point of the exercise"? Which you can't answer.

Asked & answered. God wants a relationship with His Creation and He wants us to freely choose to repent. It's your choice not to believe. Don't blame God for your choice.

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I thought you might have a new, coherent response but it's the same non-existent plot hole argument.

a reply to: neoholographic

God is outside of space and time so he knows who's going to make the choice

There's people who use their free will to reject God.

How has any person got freewill.... if god already knows who is going to make the choice?

The truth cannot be spoken because it's non conceptual..... it's what is always present, always here... so goes unnoticed.... it's overlooked.

The Lords presence is the seeing of what's appearing....here now.....no division between seer and seen.

It says in the bible that one has to become as a little children to enter the Kingdom.
Little children have not as yet had concepts implanted.....they have no ideas or dividing lines.

The liar, the deceiver is words and symbols......they are idols made (god said make no idols).

Is there a dividing line (separation) between you and what actually is?
Or is 'you' simply a word that seems to divide all that is from itself?

What is happening is all there is.....no thing......but everything.

God is not in time or space......nothing is in time or space.......time and space are thoughts......thoughts appear and disappear now.

The bird song goes tweet tweet tweet.... so impossible to put into words......but sounds so delightful.

originally posted by: neoholographic
An obvious lie on your part. You didn't post the whole verse because the whole verse answers the question. How dishonest.

No, I quoted the part pertinent to the point I was making.

ETA: The fact that you think the second part of the verse answers what was asked shows you don't even really understand the question.

Asked & answered. God wants a relationship with His Creation and He wants us to freely choose to repent. It's your choice not to believe. Don't blame God for your choice.

Like I keep saying over and over but you just outright dismiss, that is only a satisfactory answer to you because that is how you rationalize it. You even had to agree to disagree with the other christian member you were at odds with earlier in the thread because even they didn't agree with your non-answer.

I thought you might have a new, coherent response but it's the same non-existent plot hole argument.

Actually there are others but if you can't see this obvious one then you are not going to see the others.

You obviously skirted god hardening of the pharaoh's heart or the confusing of tongues and scattering of the once united humanity as god interfering with free will.

All this thread has really done is shown quite a bit of religious zealotry on your part.

No true God would put a person in hell. No true God would have spite. No true God would act the way this supposed God acts. By the stories, he acts like me. Sheiße we might be the same dude.

a reply to: cooperton

I guess I was just looking for some acknowledgment that there are indeed examples of God influencing free will, and thus arguments citing our free will as reasons for the bad (or the good) of this world should be revaluated. Because if God plays the "guiding hand" so to speak, at times, then it may not necessarily be "our fault". If that makes sense. Alternatively, if perhaps I'm misunderstanding those verses, I'd like an explanation.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
a reply to: cooperton

I guess I was just looking for some acknowledgment that there are indeed examples of God influencing free will, and thus arguments citing our free will as reasons for the bad (or the good) of this world should be revaluated. Because if God plays the "guiding hand" so to speak, at times, then it may not necessarily be "our fault". If that makes sense. Alternatively, if perhaps I'm misunderstanding those verses, I'd like an explanation.

God certainly has been at work since the beginning. Look at how the laws of physics have perpetuated consistently for the past known history with such precision as to allow the existence of all matter.

But I don't see God interrupting free will. Is there persuasion? Absolutely.. especially for the sake of the development of God's children. He hardened Pharaoh's heart, but Pharaoh still had the choice. My heart gets hardened occasionally but I can still choose to overcome.

Jesus even asked if it were possible to not have to go through with the crucifixion, but He said if it's God's will then He will do it. He had the choice. Satan, through Peter, tried to influence Him not to go through with it, but Jesus knew it was Satan trying to save his reign on earth by getting people to submit to his will rather than God's

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

How has any person got freewill.... if god already knows who is going to make the choice?

Just because God knows what we will do, does not mean we don't have the choice in each given moment. We have free will, but God knows what we will choose.

originally posted by: sine.nomine
No true God would put a person in hell.

You mean no sane person would make choices that lead to a hellish existence?

Well if the Abrahamic God was real, an not some allegory for poetic justice or irony before Shakespeare, the non believers would easily have been believers. Then again if there was one they wouldn't be believers, then would they?

Yet shaking fist at Sky isn't a good sign of mental stability ether.

a reply to: neoholographic

Originally posted by neoholographic
Asked & Answered.

You don't want an answer because you have this non-existent loophole/plot hole in your mind. You keep coming back with the same nonsense saying you didn't answer my context. That's just a way of saying there will never be an answer for you. You just thought you had a gotcha moment and it fell flat.

You Keep repeating “Asked & Answered.” But that doesn’t mean that it’s been answered…you’re just fooling yourself at this point…

Originally posted by neoholographic
I'm going to answer this one more time. Anyone reading this thread will recognize the same verses that I have used over and over again to answer you and others non-existent loophole questions.

But the verses you keep posting don’t explain away the question…imo

Originally posted by neoholographic
There's nothing stopping you from giving your life to Christ. The Bible says:

But as I've already stated in another post…this isn’t about me or any one individual…It’s about the whole of humanity, who could potentially get deceived or/and tempted by Satan…

Originally posted by neoholographic
Romans 1:20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

I quoted this verse in the OP!

But that verse doesn’t answer the question either…because someone could be deceived by Satan to not see the truth…which means my question still has relevance…and remains unanswered…

For example…someone not seeing the “truth” based solely on their own freewill choice…is completely different from someone who can’t see the “truth” because they are unknowingly deceived by Satan…they’re 2 completely different ball games…

Originally posted by neoholographic
Secondly, God is outside of space and time so he knows who's going to make the choice not to accept Christ. The Bible says:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The strong delusion is sent to those that are perishing. Those who believed not the truth.

Verse 10 isn’t much use to someone who is unknowingly deceived by Satan… it’s completely unfair…

So again…it’s back to the Question…why would God not prevent Satan from being able to do those things…either by taking his powers away…or by locking him away…or by destroying him etc…?

Originally posted by neoholographic
Satan is deceiving those who are perishing. Those who are making the choice to reject Christ.

But that’s the whole point of my question because those who are deceived don’t realize it…in other words…Satan being aloud to float around in the ether with his various powers and so forth, is making things worse…so again that brings us back to my original question!...

Originally posted by neoholographic
We have free will and the Bible tells us the heart is evil.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

But us having freewill is irrelevant to my question…because while we can make both good and bad choices ourselves…having Satan around makes it even harder for people and even infringes on their freewill to some extent…which is again completely unfair…

So yes, you’ve guessed it…it’s back to my original question again…

- JC