Why are atheist so angry with God?

a reply to: daskakik

You are still missing the point.

It isn't about what might happen to satan at some point.

It is about the claim that god can't even stand to look upon those with sin, yet here we have him just paling around with the greatest sinner of all time, not to mentioned that he tried to take god out, and even making a friendly wager, as if they were the Duke Bros. from Trading Places.

Apparently your faith just won't let you accept this huge plot hole.

I understand your confusion when trying to sort out how the Trinity of God works.

While God the Father (the invisible Spirit) is unable to look upon sin, the Son can. Jesus is the Son who always existed as the Son before he became flesh and walked the earth. He is the one who created everything and was given dominion over everything in heaven (including Satan) and earth by the Father. The LORD in the story of Job, is the Son. The Son will continue to sit at the right hand of the Father until he puts all of the Father's enemies under his feet, so the Father can finally face us and live with us.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

So, you let your own anger towards other angry people keep you from believing in God?

I'm curious as to what questions you ask yourself about God and whether or not he exists, or do you? Do you feel like this is just a miserable world where God couldn't possibly exist because it's so miserable? Help me to understand.

If you're referring to my name on this website, I chose it a long time ago, it's a long story and I'm not that person anymore.
However, to reiterate, I'm not angry about anything other than the continued existence of Boris Johnson (long story) and I'm certainly not angry at god, so please don't claim otherwise. I'm not angry because in my view he/she/it/they do not exist and never have.
I started to become an atheist when I was studying for my confirmation in the Church of England and when I studied for my Scripture O-Level here in the UK the process was complete. The main problem was that the more I read the less I believed, especially as the bible did not match up with the archaeology.
This is a huge area and I don't have the time to go into it in great detail, but I can pull out a few examples.
Let's take the tale of Solomon for example, who was said to have ruled a huge area of the Levant... except that there's absolutely no proof that any Hebrew king ruled any such huge kingdom. Not a brick, not a carving, not a record tablet says so. There is a plausible theory that says that much of the bible has been massaged by priests of a largely remote hill kingdom based around Jerusalem who didn't like the fact that the lowlanders were worshipping other gods as well as theirs (I would direct you to The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman that's a damn good read).
There's also the entire tale of the crucifixion. That was a Roman punishment for rebels and slaves. Why use it on a religious leader? Add on the fact that there is absolutely no outside evidence of the existence of Jesus (other than a rather dodgy reference in Josephus, which might have been inserted much later and a reference to the Christian sect in Tacitus) and you see my issue. And let me stress, this is my belief, I walked down the road that led to this place where I am happy not believing.
So, I ask no questions of 'god' - why should I, when I don't believe in him? I prefer to live and let live. I don't get angry about this, but I do sigh when people insist otherwise because they have this strange need to believe that all atheists are angry at something. As I said, I cannot answer for every atheist, but I'm not angry. I just object to people trying to convert me as it's rather rude of them to think that I need converting in the first place. If there's been one upside to COVID-19, it's that the door-to-door visits from the local Jehovah's Witnesses have ceased, which is nice because for some reason the dog really dislikes them.

originally posted by: daskakik

The problem with metaphor is that it turns the bible into Aesop's fables. A work of fiction that lays down some truths but isn't really true but that isn't how many christians look at it.

That is why I am discussing it as if it where all true, except the parts where obviously metaphor is used in the text, to discuss something that I found to be contradictory to the story, if taken that way.

So as example, is the seven headed beast of Revelation actually a seven headed beast, or does it represent something else? Is it you who picks and chooses the metaphors? lol

What Atheist love to do is try and work people into logic loops as if the bible is factual in just words written without any clue to the meaning behind the words. Why didn't God just destroy Satan if he is all powerful, as example. There is a ton of theistic lectures on that topic that are easy to find if one really wanted to know, but that isn't the goal of an Atheist. Their goal is to just try and show how wrong something is by trying to apply their personal logic based on their limit knowledge of the subject. They also do not accept the answer given since it isn't a truism at some level they would accept.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I think that you're attributing a bit too much when you say that atheists have 'goals'. I just have non-belief. 'Goals' sounds too organised.

Perhaps the reason that many people become atheist is because of the disagreement between Christians. If the Christians can't even reach a common ground on Biblical doctrine; then what's the point. Cherry pick what you want to believe and become critical of those that might have chosen a different cherry. Who wouldn't want to be a part of that community..lol?

This constant bickering over what all the parables, allegories, Haggadah, and narrative meanings must be exhausting. What a fantastic way to promote your "faith"....

btw...I'm not an atheist and have constructed my own belief system based on a Quantum God.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

I think that you're attributing a bit too much when you say that atheists have 'goals'. I just have non-belief. 'Goals' sounds too organised.

Mind you I didn't say ALL atheists, but why would an atheist want to question the bible in anyway? What would be their goal in doing so other than to try and prove the religious person is wrong and they are right with some "I'm smarter than you" attitude.

The deal with religion is the more proof ones needs means the less faith they have. Its just not a good debate that the zero faith person who only wants physical proof tries to outsmart the person with faith that needs zero proof. Every logic loop presented has been addressed over and over for like 1000 years lol, if you all don't like the answer than move on...

I wonder how many atheist believe that aliens are among us, I don't believe that either, but I bet a good number of them do and so I could also play the same game that they do with the bible.

originally posted by: olaru12
Perhaps the reason that many people become atheist is because of the disagreement between Christians. If the Christians can't even reach a common ground on Biblical doctrine; then what's the point. Cherry pick what you want to believe and become critical of those that might have chosen a different cherry. Who wouldn't want to be a part of that community..lol?

This constant bickering over what all the parables, allegories, Haggadah, and narrative meanings must be exhausting. What a fantastic way to promote your "faith"....

All that is not something the average religious person thinks about nor wants to debate. Faith is very simple in nature that really needs zero support from anything. What you suggest above is more along the lines of political motives as man will be man in all his incompleteness, but at the root levels it is just faith, nothing more or less.

a reply to: Xtrozero

At one time I was almost a Catholic. Married to a very devout Hispanic beautiful woman who took me to mass. I loved the ritual, the community and the outreach programs; but the priest at our particular parish had a political agenda ala the arch diocese. It didn't take me long to realize that this "faith" wasn't really about salvation but mind control disguised as religion. I still have a great affection for the Virgin of Guadalupe and built her a shrine.

btw...my beautiful exwife is still a Catholic but just barely.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
The main problem was that the more I read the less I believed, especially as the bible did not match up with the archaeology.

What particular evidence showed you that Biblical history is incorrect?

If this archaeology that made you disbelieve were shown to be false, would you reconsider? Or are you set on your beliefs?

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
The main problem was that the more I read the less I believed, especially as the bible did not match up with the archaeology.

What particular evidence showed you that Biblical history is incorrect?

If this archaeology that made you disbelieve were shown to be false, would you reconsider? Or are you set on your beliefs?

Good grief, pretty much all of it. It's possible that the story of Exodus is a faint echo of the end of the Hyksos occupation of Lower Egypt, but that's sketchy at best. The conquest of Canaan does not fit with any of the archaeology and is a topic of deep division amongst local archaeologists. The bible barely mentions the Hittites, one of the most powerful Bronze and early Iron Age powers in the Middle East, which is odd, and there are barely any mentions of the Hebrews in any of the archives of the major powers, like Egypt, Babylon and Assyria.
The issue of Jerusalem is an excellent case in point. All the archaeology (which is limited in some areas like the Temple Mount) seems to suggest that the city was barely a town at a time when the bible says it was the great city of Solomon. There's no evidence whatsoever of a Solomonic Empire of any kind and in fact there's no evidence for the First Temple, something which is again a topic of deep division and angry debate within Israel.
We know that Judaism did not start off monotheistic, there are more than enough carvings and relics and evidence of a female consort, so we have no idea just how much the bible has been tinkered with to fit the regional politics of the time.
Mention of Jerusalem brings me back to another point - we have very little real idea about the Early Christian Church. We know that it was run out of Jerusalem, which is a shame because in 70AD the Romans besieged the city, stormed it, sacked it and effectively destroyed it. The Temple was burnt down, thousands of people were killed or enslaved and all of a sudden the Early Christian Church is headless and homeless and seems to have headed off in a new direction as a result. We think that is. No-one knows.
That's a weighty start and I've barely scratched the surface, so I'm not going to be changing my mind any time soon.
If facts emerge that change any of the above then I'll take that into account.


EDIT: I changed Upper Egypt to Lower Egypt in my answer, apologies brain fart there.

a reply to: Deetermined
No, you can't enter heaven if you are a sinner, is the point, not which part of the trinity can and can't handle being in the presence of a sinner.

a reply to: Xtrozero
That would be an example of the metaphor in the text that I mentioned. It would also include the parables Jesus used when preaching.

You need to tell that to the member saying the jewish scribes took accurate notes.

originally posted by: olaru12

btw...my beautiful exwife is still a Catholic but just barely.

My wife is Catholic and has a mini shrine in my house, I really don't care, and when I support her a few times a year I bitch about how hot the holy water is. Not a subject I really want to debate with my wife...lol

Sure there is a lot of politics in Religion, and that is why one needs to go to the root level to get anything out of it. People are people even Priests, so pick and choose as they are all not saints...lol If you get something out of it all then go for it, if not then let others enjoy what they have. There are a lot of good religious people in the world that do good based on their faith, so in the end I really don't care if you do good based on Jesus or Kant, to each their own...

One thing I can tell you is there are more religious people helping others as part of their daily life than people on the side of Kant and other philosophers that people might use as a moral foundation.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: Xtrozero
That would be an example of the metaphor in the text that I mentioned. It would also include the parables Jesus used when preaching.

You need to tell that to the member saying the jewish scribes took accurate notes.

The bible is the word of God, so who are you to suggest how it should be or not be written...lol Who is to say what "word" means to God, so maybe God's word, as example, was like a movie of the ends of time and those who he showed it to did their best to explain it with the knowledge of 1000s of years ago looking at lets say 500 years in our future.

We also can not really define "accurate" here. In your case you suggest the exact word use, and others would say the meaning, once again I'm not a person to debate faith as it is a waste of time to try.

a reply to: Xtrozero
I never said it should or shouldn't be written in any way.

That is why I can only say, and that is all I did, what in the bible sealed the deal for me to walk away.

I don't get what your beef is.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: GoShredAK
The thing isn't the location, it is the guy in charge, who the bible says can't stand sinners but the book of Job makes it look like he doesn't have a problem with them coming into his home.

I understand how you feel, I was there myself, at one point in my life. I'm just not there anymore.

What bugs me about this thread is someone telling me what I "must" believe or what I "must" be feeling.

The OP asked 3 questions on the last page, I'm going to copy paste them and shorten them a little:

1. How can you conclude God doesn't exist with such limited information?

2. How do you conclude that there's no afterlife?

3. How can atheist conclude that we're the highest form of intelligence that has ever existed?

I didn't reply to both his posts with that text because they don't apply to me.

Number one cuts both ways, with such limited information how can you say Yahweh is the ultimate god?

Number two, I'm an atheist but I believe there is something after this life.

Number three, I have never heard atheists say "we're the highest form of intelligence that has ever existed". They/we just say we don't believe the story you believe in.

Fair...

I don't like that either, not one bit.......so try very hard not to come off that way and represent my saviour poorly.....

I have a feeling you will come full circle and Jesus is still right there waiting for you with open arms

Have a great Sunday!

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: GoShredAK
The thing isn't the location, it is the guy in charge, who the bible says can't stand sinners but the book of Job makes it look like he doesn't have a problem with them coming into his home.

I understand how you feel, I was there myself, at one point in my life. I'm just not there anymore.

What bugs me about this thread is someone telling me what I "must" believe or what I "must" be feeling.

The OP asked 3 questions on the last page, I'm going to copy paste them and shorten them a little:

1. How can you conclude God doesn't exist with such limited information?

2. How do you conclude that there's no afterlife?

3. How can atheist conclude that we're the highest form of intelligence that has ever existed?

I didn't reply to both his posts with that text because they don't apply to me.

Number one cuts both ways, with such limited information how can you say Yahweh is the ultimate god?

Number two, I'm an atheist but I believe there is something after this life.

Number three, I have never heard atheists say "we're the highest form of intelligence that has ever existed". They/we just say we don't believe the story you believe in.

God cannot stand sin.......the sinners he loves.

God unfathomable love is beyond human ability....it is called "agape" love and we Connot comprehend it.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: Wookiep
Personally, I'm surprised you would say that to me.

Let me tell you a little story, about 10 years ago my family came to visit. They brought along a very sweet old lady. They were here for a while, about a month.

One day the conversation came up about faith. Feeling like I had to represent I mentioned that I was atheist.

This very sharp old lady looked at me and said in earnest: "Sweetheart you can't be atheist because I can feel you have a good heart".

I wasn't going to argue with her because she was right, or at least I would like to think so.

The thing is that, despite being an atheist, I have no beef with people who follow one religion or another. It is just where their environment has taken them to.

That said, we are talking about christianity and the base for that is the bible and I am merely pointing out what, in that very massive book, turned me off.

Sounds like religion got you all messed up........that is by design....

I don't care for religion and at a young age I had beliefs similar to yours.....

I am so glad Jesus himself could not stand religion and religious hypocrites!

It's all between you and God through Jesus........it's right to throw religion along with other people's opinions right out the window......

You don't have to let those fools and self righteous pharisees ruin a good thing for you!

originally posted by: GoShredAK
.......the sinners he loves.

That is another contradiction, then why not judge after they are in heaven. Wouldn't everybody kneel at that point?

That would make more sense but instead you have a story with a contrived plot which looks like something humans would make up.

Oka reply to: Wookiep

You used a broad brush which is a poor start tbh.....

Some are angry, and some are still stuck in an old testament ritualistic religious mindset........

Jesus himself rebuked those kind.

A true Christian is just overjoyed with finding a personal relationship with Jesus and the feeling that comes with that........

It is a joy we want to spread and it feels good to introduce people to him.....

I don't get angry and feel compelled in the slightest to force my beliefs on others.....it's easy to do if your motive is truly altruistic.......which is what happens when you allow intuition (Holy Spirit) to guide you.....

I see a lot of believers using condemnation in their message which is laced with disdain and self righteousness........I get mad at that too ....

This is not all believers and we're not all religious and angry......

I strive to be an example of that.