UKRAINE/RUSSIA WAR - looks like it’s started

a reply to: McGinty

I must admit that i've lost respect for Zelenskyy with his asking for a no-fly zone. He knows very well that it would very easily escalate into ww3 if a russian jet strayed in there.

It could escalate into WWIII regardless of that.

..... - that while he deeply admired the Ukrainians heart in this fight the hard truth is that eventually russia will take Kiev and Ukraine. The longer that takes the more will die. So being inevitable it's the right thing to do to capitulate and sue for peace and the best outcome possible.

That's what lots of neutrals were saying back in 1940 after Dunkirk.
But even through The Battle of Britain and The Blitz we persevered even though to most it seemed inevitable and pointless.
'We'll fight them on the beaches' and all that.....

Why would you expect Ukrainians to be any different?

I said this a few days back on here and with every passing day the death seems more and more pointless.

Most wars are pointless.
Especially one's that occur purely to feed one man's deluded dreams of 'greatness'.

The only service Ukraine does in fighting on is to try and create a hostile atmosphere for Putin at home - to deter him from doing this again, or even for his own people to overthrow him in some manner.

Do you honestly think Putin is going to stop at the Ukraine?
Moldova next?
Or The Baltic States?

media on youtube from the west , has captured Russian soldiers saying they were lied to and told this was just an exercise and that they didnt know they were being involved in a military operation.

is this just propaganda? who knows

Experts: Be ready for a Russia Cyberattack against the USA!

Same Experts: Russia Cyberattacks disappoint Putin with lack of effectiveness.

The Headline SCARES YOU. The smaller print alleviates the fear.

U.S. Journalism = FAILS: www.foxnews.com...

Looks like the U.S. media is bored and disappointed by the lack of blood and bodies in the streets of Ukraine.

originally posted by: BZiker
a reply to: IAMTAT

How can we reliably verify that it was the Russians who did it, and not provocateurs?

Otherwise, desecration of monuments is more in the spirit of neo-Nazis.
Are you aware that the neo-Nazis of Ukraine, Poland, Latvia and Estonia (the last three members of NATO) are demolishing Holocaust memorials and liberators, desecrating the graves of Russian soldiers who fell in World War II and transferring the graves of victims of concentration camps to the landfill (the latter made in Latvia)?
Or is it not important for you to check the authenticity and consistency of the statements of the media?

I'm sorry if my sarcasm in posting about the headlines declaring Putin bombed a Holocaust memorial was too mild...or too incompetently expressed on my part.

Like you, I'm extremely skeptical of what the press is reporting from all sides...never more so than now.
I'm also aware that Ukrainian propaganda is out in full force atm.


The headline I referenced reeks of engineered propaganda.

a reply to: BZiker

First. I have not seen any evidence that Putin owns this yacht. I've been looking for official data in international sources for a long time, but everywhere you need a paid subscription to open this data, and I'm not so interested in it

As previously stated, we can agree to disagree as to the extent of Putin's wealth.

Second. In Russia, the majority of the population would have chipped in to Putin on any yacht, any palace, and much more.

You generally do not come off as ridiculous.
Your above statement is an exception.

The third. According to the latest polls of opposition sociological centers, more than 70% of Russians support the operation in Ukraine. In a country where people after the USSR do not believe propaganda at all.

If you say so.
Clearly, you do not believe there is government propaganda hard at work in Russia.

Again, ridiculous.

Fourth. The nonsense about China is juicy. China receives all the necessary resources on a mutually beneficial basis.

The fact that you believe Russia knows what China thinks of as "necessary" and that Russia is in a position to determine and distribute what is "necessary" for China, is not logical. It is also dangerous.

Believe and trust China at your own peril.

Fifth. The undocking of the Russian part of the world economy is happening very timely.

Perhaps.
China will now provide all that is "necessary".

Thank you again for staying with this thread and continuing to provide your unique perspective.
It's very informative...and appreciated.

a reply to: Freeborn

No arguments with any of that. I hope you're right and the deaths aren't futile - Ukraine wins. In '40 in we hadn't had 30 miles of water between us and Europe it may have been a different outcome. That barrier gave us a chance. Ukraine don't have such a barrier and Putin has far more effective weapons than Hitler did. I'm guessing a thermobaric trumps a doodle bug, perhaps even a bomb from a Junker. Imo Ukraine's odds of winning are worse than Britain's in '40. Plus we had allies, including the US. Ukraine has none in the field (which is the way it should remain or the fat lady sings).

I agree that Putin has no intention of stopping at Ukraine, i'm sure the thinking in the west is that the deadlier and costlier Ukraine make this for Putin the more chance there is of resistance in Moscow to him doing that. Sounds like you think that's unlikely, as do i, which means if (probably when) Putin takes Kiev those Ukrainian deaths will suddenly seem a very terrible waste. It's a gamble which the west are playing with Ukrainian chips.

a reply to: sapien82

To be honest unless you see it and it can't be faked it's best to assume everything from either side is propaganda.

a reply to: carewemust

Yep! All this 'Go Ukraine' crap in the media reminds me of the 'clap for carers' in the uk during the first covid wave. That turned out badly for them and i fear this egging on of Ukraine with also leave a very bitter taste.

Like they say, the first casualty of war is the truth...but there is an alternative to the MSM.

truthsocial.com...

a reply to: McGinty

How did the clapping thing turn out badly?

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

They were given the finger by the government when it came to giving them a much needed pay rise of 3% (think that's the figure or there abouts). This is after working throughout covid without the proper PPE promised them only to discover afterwards that many of those PPE contracts had been hocked out to firms and individuals with no prior experience, hence many ballsed it up. One of those given a big figure contract was health secretary Hancock's mate, a pub landlord...
Matt Hancock’s mate ended up with a Covid contract. Did any of yours?
That's an entertaining video clip, btw, of Mancock getting an earful.

The brave NHS workers should've gotten medals and more importantly a proper pay rise for their meagre salaries - talking about the nurses in particular). Meanwhile MPs have just given their own very generous salaries a pay rise.

I'd say the general consensus in the UK is that the NHS got shafted. My fear is that the Ukrainian people currently showing immense fortitude and bravely will come to feel the same way when the dust settles. Whatever Putin does to their way of life over the next decade or two, he'll eventually be gone and the kids who are now trying to survive the war in Ukraine will say good riddance and live on, if they survive to do so. Maybe that's naive and it'll lead to Putin moving through neighbouring countries making things far more dangerous for everyone. I'm glad i don't have to make these calls, there are no right answers.

a reply to: McGinty

Oh, fair enough, I see what you mean. Agree about the insult pay rise.

Talking bout insults, I see MP's just awarded themselves a £2,200.00 pay rise.

Trebles all round!

Pass the sick bag......

a reply to: BZiker

Interesting that you call the war an "operation".

In Russia news outlets are forbidden from calling it a "war" or an "invasion".

As for:

"According to the latest polls of opposition sociological centers, more than 70% of Russians support the operation in Ukraine. In a country where people after the USSR do not believe propaganda at all."

What opposition?

What polls?

Russian state controlled media, hmmmm.

a reply to: McGinty

No arguments with any of that. I hope you're right and the deaths aren't futile - Ukraine wins.

I think in all likelihood it will be futile....but who knows?
I do know that if it was my country being invaded it wouldn't matter how futile, I'd fight till my last breath.

In '40 in we hadn't had 30 miles of water between us and Europe it may have been a different outcome.

Quite possibly.

Plus we had allies,.....

We had a rag tag bunch of survivors from beaten countries - not knocking them, incredibly brave people but there was relatively few of them.
Our biggest Allies were our Commonwealth family and they were thousands of miles away and more or less cut off from us.

But we survived.

.... including the US.

No they weren't, not at the time.
They hadn't even started Lend Lease.
They didn't come into the war until Germany declared war on them in December 1941 well after The Battle of Britain and the worst of The Blitz.

We were more alone than what most people think.

Ukraine has none in the field (which is the way it should remain or the fat lady sings).

See, as pointed out to me, that's the moral dilemma we are in.
I don't want to see dead British soldiers coming back from yet another war in a foreign land.
I don't want to see this conflict spiral out of control into a full scale conventional WWIII or heaven forbid a nuclear war.
But I hate the fact that Putin is bullying his neighbours - even the world - with this invasion and his implied threats.
And I fear if he's successful in Ukraine he won't stop there....and then what?

I've been harping on about this for some time now.....but the man has gone, he's flipped.
He has to be stopped.....but how?

I certainly don't know....I haven't got a single suggestion that doesn't mean more death and destruction, and that's the last thing any of us want.

A conundrum of epic proportions.

a reply to: Freeborn

Nail on the head, mate.

Putin knows that the West won't, can't stop him by military means.

That's why he thinks he'll get away with this.

Where is 007 when we need him?

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

It would save a lot of chew on if a Russian could do the whole world a favour and sort it out for us.
Novichok would have a certain amount of justice to it.....
Or maybe an old fashioned ice pick in the head.😉

a reply to: Freeborn

Knives in his back and he'll be going "Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me"!

Hopefully.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Interesting that you call the war an "operation".

I caught that too.

As for:

"According to the latest polls of opposition sociological centers, more than 70% of Russians support the operation in Ukraine. In a country where people after the USSR do not believe propaganda at all."

What opposition?

What polls?

Russian state controlled media, hmmmm.

Another good catch.
Perhaps Russian state-controlled media should begin classifying anything in conflict with their official narrative: "Misinformation"...and just call any opposition "white supremacists".

Working well elsewhere.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Well, why?
Open any Russian media channel on YouTube. I watch RBC - due to the greater share of financial news on this TV channel.
They call it in different ways, and war, and operation, and the devil knows what else.

I say "operation" for two reasons. Firstly, my second higher education is international law. Therefore, I am clearly aware that neither Russia has declared war on Ukraine, nor Ukraine on Russia. And this is a very important point from the point of view of international law. If Ukraine does not officially declare war on Russia, it means that it accepts the status of this action on the part of Russia - that is, a "limited military operation".
At the same time, this situation restricts Russia in the methods and goals that it is free to adopt. This status of the operation is declared voluntarily, and only complicates the speed of this operation.

The second reason is that at the level of my personal perception, war is the total destruction of infrastructure, carpet bombing indiscriminately, and only then the entry of armored formations, under the cover of special operations forces into the territory of the attacked country. About the same as NATO did in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
But I watched a lot of interviews with military experts, half of whom were Western, and they all agree in their assessments. At the moment, Russia is conducting a limited operation with light tactical combat groups, under the cover of aviation and reinforced with a small number of tanks. Your experts say that the main Russian forces based in the territories adjacent to Ukraine have not yet entered into combat, and if the losses of Russian troops do not radically increase (according to official reports of the Russian Ministry of Defense 495 soldiers were killed, 1597 wounded), then it is possible that no one will bring additional forces into battle.
So it happens involuntarily.

I'll add it. My personal version of Russian propaganda.
Many in Russia are extremely dissatisfied with the chosen tactics. The desire of the Russian leadership to preserve the Ukrainian infrastructure is called erroneous. Many believe that because of this soft tactics, losses are almost 10 times higher than in Syria. However, judging by the lists of dead soldiers and officers, the main losses fell on the supply and repair parts. Special Operations forces lost 34 people killed. The reason for this difference is precisely not Putin's desire to demolish civilian infrastructure with air strikes, using which special parts of Ukraine were able to track down supply convoys.

Russian military experts also note that the demonstration of real losses before the end of the operation is a bad sign for the Ukrainian army. Previously, this was done only on the eve of serious battles risking causing great damage to the enemy in personnel. In this case, we are most likely talking about the almost surrounded shock units of the Ukrainian troops in the south-east near Donetsk. There are about 40,000 soldiers of the most combat-ready units of the Ukrainian army. The problem is also that our command offers to surrender a maximum of three times. This has historically happened. After the third offer is rejected, the opponent is destroyed. And this group has already made two offers to surrender. They cannot break out of the encirclement, the supply depots in the territory controlled by them were destroyed in the first minutes of the operation. No help is being sent to them. From previously prepared fortified positions, in the area of the line of confrontation with the Donetsk militia, they were knocked out. In fact, they hide in villages and several small towns. I hope that President Zelensky will give them the order to surrender and save their lives. Otherwise, they have no chance. Similar situations have happened before in that area (Ilovaisky boiler, Debaltsevo boiler).
After the surrender or destruction of this group of troops, Ukraine does not have large strike formations

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

And about the opposition.
Navalny is your most painted "oppositionist".
But there are many other human rights activists acting without performances for TV cameras, and distancing themselves from the influence of Western media and various Western organizations aimed at "promoting democracy in Russia." Simply put, they don't believe them. But they criticize the government openly and argumentatively.

As for the polls - Levada Center - you can find this organization on the Internet. They are funded through a charitable stratum by the American Congress. They don't hide it, and nobody cares about it. Russians look at their polls when they want to find out which way the figures "opposition" and "government" are rounded up in order to deduce the average value)


And when this crisis is in the past, I strongly advise you to visit Russia. To live here for at least a month. Red cranberries in your imagination will become much less.
Russia has a specific system of power. Not like what you know. But this is our choice. And they won't show it to you, but our management system is evolving much faster than you think. And the approach of NATO to the borders of Russia greatly slows down the processes of strengthening the institutions of local self-government and parliamentarism. You shift the focus of ordinary people's attention to the threat (imaginary or not - it does not matter) - and the ordinary person becomes not interested in participating in the processes of public self-government. Moreover, a huge number of human rights organizations have compromised themselves by links - through layers - with NATO states. It pushes people away from them.
So you messed up the process yourself.