Russia Ukraine Update Thread

a reply to: McGinty


I watch VERY little 'telly' and don't even know what they're saying about putin right now.

My opinion on the matter was not determined by the teevee, and I don't spread my opinion on teevee, only here.

But if the teevee is calling putin a madman, and putin doesn't like being called a madman, then perhaps putin should stop doing madman things.

Because the teevee isn't likely to stop calling putin a madman if he keeps doing madman things.

originally posted by: McGinty

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u

originally posted by: McGinty

originally posted by: wordforword
a reply to: McGinty
You should send this to Ukrainians who are stuck in bomb shelters, to Ukrainians who lost their families and all the possessions bec of Putin. Send it to those who are still fighting for every inch of their own land. Tell them, 'let Putin take whatever he wants bec we all here are afraid of getting nuked.'

Yeah, you're right, better to get nuked than to negotiate.

originally posted by: wordforword
a reply to: McGinty
Also, with all the rumours coming from the Russian side, do we still think the 'nuking' is on the table?

Which rumours are these exactly (that includes proof they're not from a western source) ?

Is russia threatening to nuke Ukraine if Ukraine doesn't give russia everything russia wants in 'negotiations?

Tell us again how putin isn't a madman.

Truman nuked Japan twice. Was he a madman?

Point being that it's all a matter of perspective. Western kids certainly aren't taught that Truman was a madman, but i suspect quite a few folk in Hiroshima and Nagasaki would say he one mad motherf*****

Monday morning quarterbacking. Atomic weapons were brand new in 1945.

Now, 77 years later, EVERYONE has a better idea of why a nuclear war would benefit no one. And Putin is living in the NOW, not in 1945.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Who makes those decisions? The Ukrainians on the frontline with automatics shoved into their hands, or their president in his bunker?

This hero worship of the Ukranian fight leaves a bad taste for me. My guess is that when they under attack most ukranians on the front line would appreciate some diplomacy.

originally posted by: McGinty
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Who makes those decisions? The Ukrainians on the frontline with automatics shoved into their hands, or their president in his bunker?

This hero worship of the Ukranian fight leaves a bad taste for me. My guess is that when they under attack most ukranians on the front line would appreciate some diplomacy.

Vladimir Putin made that decision.

All by himself.

originally posted by: McGinty
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Who makes those decisions? The Ukrainians on the frontline with automatics shoved into their hands, or their president in his bunker?

This hero worship of the Ukranian fight leaves a bad taste for me. My guess is that when they under attack most ukranians on the front line would appreciate some diplomacy.

Your arguments are lopsided.

You know as well as I do that such decisions are made at the national level.

Now cry us a river for the poor Russian boys shoved into a war by Putin and his clique. That cuts both ways, Mac.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Yes, you're right, Putin would be wrong to use them. Telling him that isn't going to stop him. There's no moral high ground in war, just tactical high ground you can put boots and a big gun on. We need to accept that nukes detonating in our back yards are likely if Putin doesn't find a way to wriggle out of this he can live with.

Helping him do that is way to preserve the lives of a couple billion children around the world who should be able to have children of their own long after Putin has shuffled off his mortal coil in fashion that didn't take us all with him.

a reply to: McGinty

Mac, this is the crux of the problem. It is not just Putin, or just a clique in Moscow.

Any country in the world with the right weapons can rattle a nuclear saber and threaten the entire world if they don't get what they want.

But the world has never responded well to such approaches.

If Putin orders a nuclear strike, yeah, what follows will be ugly.

But folding every time some national leader demands something "or else" will just be ugly in a different way.

Putin dug this hole himself. Now he has to either pull himself out or others in Russia will have to do it. Make careful note nothing in that statement implies enduring punishment for the Russian economy or the Russian people. Putin himself, that's a different matter. And I'm reasonably confident he cannot, by himself, launch a nuclear strike.

Cheers

originally posted by: McGinty
a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Yes, you're right, Putin would be wrong to use them. Telling him that isn't going to stop him. There's no moral high ground in war, just tactical high ground you can put boots and a big gun on. We need to accept that nukes detonating in our back yards are likely if Putin doesn't find a way to wriggle out of this he can live with.

Helping him do that is way to preserve the lives of a couple billion children around the world who should be able to have children of their own long after Putin has shuffled off his mortal coil in fashion that didn't take us all with him.

This is the same attitude they used with Hitler and well we see how well that went.

instituted in the hope of avoiding war, appeasement was the name given to Britain’s policy in the 1930s of allowing Hitler to expand German territory unchecked. Most closely associated with British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, it is now widely discredited as a policy of weakness.

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

As i've said i think Putin's well past giving a flying whatever about what we call him.

My point was that imo the west's apparent plan to turn his own people against him and cause a coup via msm and social media saying that he's lost his marbles, along with arming Ukraine to make this war un-winable by either side - Putin's Vietnam - is essentially a game of chicken and is a bloody silly one since nukes are on the table.

But the fact that they're playing chicken with him suggests the western leaders don't really think he's mad at all, because playing chicken with a madman with nukes would be utterly moronic. Wouldn't it?

a reply to: dragonridr

Indeed, i'm aware of the uncomfortable comparison between my perspective and Neville-let Hitler do his thing cos he'll leave us alone-Chamberlain.

However, ultimately i don't think it really compares. The smart choice then was not to negotiate with Hitler. But that doesn't mean the right choice now is not to negotiate with Putin. Why?

If Hitler had had an enormous arsenal of intercontinental nuclear warhead ready to go at the touch of a button, do you still think that it would've the right choice to go to war with him? Do you think Churchill would've refused to negotiate?

All those civilians that Churchill was trying to save from Hitler would've been melted in the ultimate global blitz.

The nuclear age makes all comparison to what was before it pretty moot.

a reply to: McGinty

I suggest we can't really know what Western leaders or Putin is thinking.

Perhaps they think Putin is not mad, or perhaps they hope they can prod other elements of the Russian state to remove Putin from power.

But backing down at this point will only bring similar problems on a larger scale in the near future.

What Putin is trying to do is get some value out of strategic nuclear forces other than as a deterrent. He cannot be allowed to succeed in that gambit.

It is also worth recalling there are other lines of communication with Russia beyond just Putin. I seriously doubt -everyone- in the Russian state wants to see the world wasted because Putin has put himself and all of Russia in this situation.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

You're not wrong, it is indeed a problem. But it's fairly new territory for the world to face a nuclear stacked dictatorship on the march. We have to tread carefully. It's nice to think there's some confidence in the notion that Putin can't launch nukes by himself. However, i've no reason to think that those in his immediate circle that need to facilitate such an action would think any differently to Putin. Let's certainly hope so.

Ok... Putin is being a bit unpredictable now....

Kremlin said "the war will not end with Ukraine".
At the same time, Estonia said they were informed that spies were trying to recruit people on the border.

And now Putin sent 3 cruise missiles into Lviv

So today,one day after the Russians said they would be concentrating on "liberating"Donetsk/Luhansk-which the MSM(wrongly IMO)claimed to be a scaling back of the plan to take the whole of Ukraine-there has been a barage of rockets hitting Lviv.

LVIV, Ukraine (AP) — Several rockets struck the western Ukrainian city of Lviv on Saturday while President Joe Biden was visiting the capital of Poland, whose border is just 45 miles away. The powerful explosions frightened a city that had been a haven for hundreds of thousands of people fleeing the Russian assault on other parts of Ukraine.

www.msn.com...

Check your maps Ivan-Lviv is about as far away from Donetsk/Luhansk as its possible to get and still be in Ukraine.

Was it a signal of dissaproval of Bidens visit in nearby Poland?
Or
Was Russia talking sh!t about concentrating on the East of Ukraine?

I am guessing it was both.

a reply to: McGinty

Putin has always thought that Ukraine ("border, frontier" in Russian) is part of Russia --- Because the city of Kyiv is called the birthplace of Russia (by Russian standards).

originally posted by: Silcone Synapse
So today,one day after the Russians said they would be concentrating on "liberating"Donetsk/Luhansk-which the MSM(wrongly IMO)claimed to be a scaling back of the plan to take the whole of Ukraine-there has been a barage of rockets hitting Lviv.

LVIV, Ukraine (AP) — Several rockets struck the western Ukrainian city of Lviv on Saturday while President Joe Biden was visiting the capital of Poland, whose border is just 45 miles away. The powerful explosions frightened a city that had been a haven for hundreds of thousands of people fleeing the Russian assault on other parts of Ukraine.

www.msn.com...

Check your maps Ivan-Lviv is about as far away from Donetsk/Luhansk as its possible to get and still be in Ukraine.

Was it a signal of dissaproval of Bidens visit in nearby Poland?
Or
Was Russia talking sh!t about concentrating on the East of Ukraine?

I am guessing it was both.

Or simply the most logical reason....the "thing" that got hit was a major reservoir for receiving/delivering military stuff arriving via near Poland border ..

a reply to: Silcone Synapse

So today,one day after the Russians said they would be concentrating on "liberating"Donetsk/Luhansk-which the MSM(wrongly IMO)claimed to be a scaling back of the plan to take the whole of Ukraine-there has been a barage of rockets hitting Lviv

rasPUTIN has shown time and time again he is a barefaced liar.

Never trust the bastard,

originally posted by: PacificViking
On Friday 25 March, the Russian Ministry of Defence announced a shift of strategy in Ukraine to consolidate territory east of the Dnieper River, which forms a natural border. Russia intends to take Kharkov.

Last week it was leaked by Ukraine that Polish forces will cross the border into Western Ukraine.
To avert the need for a nuclear exchange Russia will annexe eastern Ukraine into a greater Donbas.
Lvov is likely to become the new capital of Ukraine.

Time is on Russia's side as NATO exhausts itself in a state of high alert.

A Ukrainian soldier was quoted last week: "If Kharkiv falls...the rest of Ukraine will fall."

omg...

White House once more having to walk back Biden's words...

He didn't mean Regime Change Regime Change.... he meant that Putin could excercise power over his neighbours /facepalm

And the British MoD at the same time.... "it's all a hoax!"

The whole world is lead by idiots.

a reply to: McGinty

I read this post and I couldn't really disagree much with what you said.
Then I came to this

So, he has two other options remaining: further escalation, or to spin, lie and manufacture a new narrative to exit this mess as the victor and save his premiereship.
I’d suggest that the second option is better for everyone (obvs!)

I don't care how he spins things at home.

If we really want to do everything we can to avoid ww3 and curtail the awful loss of life in Ukraine as soon as possible the west, its msm and social media (including us) should refrain from perpetually calling Putin a madman and a liar for the new dodgy, self serving narrative he’s recently started spinning to make his loss look like a victory to his home crowd. Instead we should aid that narrative, because it may be the world’s only remaining lifeline…

First of all; I don't think he gives a toss what the likes of you and I think.
Secondly; How do we 'aid that narrative'?
By meekly rolling over and letting him get away with his bullying and intimidation?
If we do that then sure as night follows day he'll be back bigger, badder and madder.

I haven't got the answers.
But I know you don't just bend over and take one for the team from bully's, it doesn't work that way.

…Should we carry on with this game of nuclear chicken hoping that mad bad vlad blinks first and retreats?

Putin and his gang of loons are the only one's talking about using nuclear weapons.
If the truth is told NATO has shown considerable restraint.

You talk of diplomacy.
As far as I'm aware Israel, Turkey and even Macron have tried very hard to instigate talks....all met with Putin's unreasonable and impossible demands.
Diplomacy requires give and take on both sides, as far as I can tell that's not an option for Putin at the moment - I could be wrong, those more informed than us may know different.

I've read lots of people's opinions on this crisis/invasion and all have merit.
As far as I can tell no-one wants this war to continue.
But none of us have any realistically long term solutions - or even short term one's.
As you know I have very little faith in any of our leaders and I for one don't think they have any better ideas than any of us.(One of the few instances where I don't envy them their job).

Now if Putin were to call an immediate ceasefire and agree to unconditional negotiations....who knows?
But we both know that's not going to happen.