Democrat Gov. Hochul Says Un-Vaxxed Christians ‘Aren’t Listening To God...

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Is it your position that Gov. Hochul is violating the tenets of Christianity by speaking to Christians about what God wants?

It is my position that Hochul is violating the tenets of Christianity by asking Christians to become apostles to her and not to God. This virus is man-made, not divine. The vaccine is man-made, and not divine. She is encouraging worship and allegiance to man, not to God.

Jesus had apostles. Jesus deserved apostles. She is not Jesus.

If anything, her remarks bear a striking resemblance to those of Jim Jones of Jonestown.

Awe, that's so cute! You think the National Prayer Breakfast is about actual "prayer" and not a political platform for lobbying on behalf of the the Christian right! LOL

Then why did you identify it as "the National Prayer Breakfast"?

Unlike you, I place my faith in God, not in politicians. Not in wanna-be cult leaders either.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: TheRedneck

I believe Kathy Hochul is saying exactly that.

Why doesn't she have the same right to speak to "the gospel" as any other person, preacher or politician using "God" and religion as a reason to get, or not to get vaccinated?

She doesn't have the right because when she does it, it violates the separation of church and state.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: MDDoxs

Democrat?

No. Why?

a reply to: Klassified

his woman has tried to assume the role of a prophet and the savior at once. It's repugnant to Christians at best.

Prophet? No. She never assumed any such mantel. And, her take on God's desire for Christians to be safe from COVID by getting a vaccine, and for others to assist God in this movement is only to offensive to Christians who don't agree with her assessment of vaccines.

As I recall, all Christians are called to wear the armor of God and to evangelize as the original apostles did.

I've never heard Trump or other Republicans presume to directly speak for God.

Then you weren't listening, because both Trump and Pence invoked God in their political arguments again and again.

a reply to: TrulyColorBlind

She doesn't have the right because when she does it, it violates the separation of church and state.

Nope.

She's not trying to legislate what God wants. She's trying to reason with Christians in their own language.

a reply to: MDDoxs

I acknowledge my ignorance.

Then allow me to further explain.

Your excerpt is basically correct. God created the Universe and all in it. Iniquity and arrogance was found in one of His three major servants, called Lucifer. Lucifer wanted to be like God, and was cast out. Since all life comes from God, Lucifer is now a dead spirit, which we refer to as Satan (capital 'S', meaning "Enemy") and the Devil (the "Adversary"). In the process, he tempted man and caused man to sin, causing us to be mortal.

Man is not only a living body, however. God gave man a living soul as well, and that soul can be redeemed. The only way to redeem it, however, is through death. So God sent His Son, Jesus, in human form, to live a sinless life and then to be a sacrifice for the sins of man. Through Jesus, all can be forgiven if they will only believe in the divinity and sacrifice of Jesus. We call that being "born again," a reference to a teaching Jesus gave. It is the complete subservience to a loving, caring God, and it changes people in ways that seem impossible.

The one thing that changes is that those who have been born again come to understand that they are not the source of goodness; God is. They realize they are sinners, in desperate need of the offered forgiveness. They realize they are all brothers with other humans, even those who don't believe.

The violation of Hochul is arrogance. She, by her own words, has established herself as the sole arbiter of what is good and right. She is, in essence, claiming to be God just as Lucifer did so long ago. That is in direct conflict with the base tenet of Christianity.

Trump, by comparison, never claimed to be God. Some claimed his rise to power was divinely destined; that may or may not be true, but either way it is not the same as Trump claiming to be God. Nor did he claim to be sinless. Instead, he acknowledged God and Jesus at every opportunity and gave Them credit and glory for the things that happened. That is in keeping with Christianity.

The Ten Commandments are just that: commandments from God. They are not tenets. Men will break those commandments; if they did not, there would be no need for forgiveness or for Jesus to be sacrificed. However, those who follow Jesus try not to break the commandments. If they try and fail, there is forgiveness; if they think they can break the commandments at will and then just ask for forgiveness, then there will be no forgiveness; they do not have Jesus inside them.

I hope that breaks it down some. The whole thing is fairly complicated; many Christians can't even put into words how the religion works. Luckily, words are not required to be saved... only faith in Jesus.

I somehow imagine the first few requirements to be very difficult for trump lol.

Your imagination is not restrictive on reality.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Prophet? No. She never assumed any such mantel.

She said she wanted apostles. How can a Christian, how can anyone, be an apostle to God and also an apostle to her?

Do you know what an apostle is?

As I recall, all Christians are called to wear the armor of God and to evangelize as the original apostles did.

The armor of God is quite specifically defined. It contains no vaccine. As a matter of fact, the shield is faith in God, not faith in a vaccine.

As to evangelizing, where does the Bible say we are to evangelize about a vaccine? We are to evangelize about God. God is not a vaccine.

both Trump and Pence invoked God in their political arguments again and again.

They gave glory to God; they did not presume to speak for God, nor did they indicate a desire to be God.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Sookiechacha

She's trying to reason with Christians in their own language.

Maybe it would help if she learned that language first?

Maybe it would help if you did?

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Thank you for the time you invested in this post. I do actually appreciate it. Also, for some background, I was raised Catholic, but dont practice, and even though I firmly believe in science and the theories/conclusion it helps us draw, I do believe in what one would call a "higher power". The universe is infinitely complex, so the possibilities of God, or a god, must also exist.

Back to the subject at hand. I went back and reread the Hochul transcripts, where, like many, she praised the lord and gave credit to god for the creation of intelligent men and women that created the vaccine to combat covid 19. The following is what I figure it the contenious part..

I need you to be my apostles. I need you to go out and talk about it and say, we owe this to each other. We love each other. Jesus taught us to love one another and how do you show that love but to care about each other enough to say, please get the vaccine because I love you and I want you to live, I want our kids to be safe when they're in schools, I want to be safe when you go to a doctor's office or to a hospital and are treated by somebody, you don't want to get the virus from them. You're already sick or you wouldn't be there,

She asks them to be her "apostle", or messenger. Is this the issue? I actually dont see the problem. The idea of an apostle is a human created concept. She very clearly communicates that the message is from Jesus. She does come very close to drawing a similarity to Jesus, but I dont see this as direct attempt at claiming godliness and overall not an aggreges offense of the Christian tenants.

Now, this was obviously a speech, and we all cannot pretend to know her true "hearts desire". Reference from Lucifer on Netflix

a reply to: TheRedneck

It is my position that Hochul is violating the tenets of Christianity by asking Christians to become apostles to her and not to God.

You take issue with a word, apostle. Got it! You think her calling on Christian apostles to help promote her belief that God wants people vaccinated is blasphemy.

You think that there are only one set of apostles for all times, and that there can't be any modern day apostles for a Christian cause today. Modern day apostles can't follow a Christian leader who calls on them for a Christian cause without being blasphemous.

You sure are going through a lot of mental gymnastic to counter the governor's faith and call to the faithful to join her cause to get her community vaccinated.

They gave glory to God; they did not presume to speak for God

LOL
They most certainly did!

a reply to: Sookiechacha

You take issue with a word, apostle. Got it! You think her calling on Christians apostles to help promote her belief that God wants people vaccinated is blasphemy.

I agree with you. I feel that the concept of an "apostle" is a human one. They are fundamentally, as I understand it, a messenger to spread the word of god as told by Jesus. So, why cant there be more? Was it forbade to have more apostles/messengers of god? What is the pope?

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Sookiechacha

She's trying to reason with Christians in their own language.

Maybe it would help if she learned that language first?

Maybe it would help if you did?

TheRedneck

It would be better if you did.

a reply to: MDDoxs

I believe in science as well. As a matter of fact, my faith is entwined in my belief in science. This universe is fantastically efficient and wondrous. I see no logical excuse for that to be except through a greater Creator. The deeper one delves into how the universe works, the more one is presented with things that simply had to be created.

She asks them to be her "apostle", or messenger. Is this the issue? I actually dont see the problem. The idea of an apostle is a human created concept. She very clearly communicates that the message is from Jesus.

An apostle is more than a messenger, and the concept actually comes from Biblical times. An apostle is a servant to the one they follow. It is a lifelong pledge. I am an apostle to Jehovah. I serve Him and Him alone, and will do so as long as I exist.

One cannot be an apostle to two masters. It's simply not possible. What she said was that Christians should abandon their apostleship to God to be apostles to her. That is perhaps the worst thing one can try to do in the eyes of God: she is trying to take His apostles from Him.

Now, maybe she doesn't understand what she said. But if that is the case, she does not understand the religion and therefore cannot be Christian. To even try to speak for God without knowing God? That is blasphemy. So either way, she is blaspheming against God.

And remember that, yes, this was a speech. It was not a slip of the tongue. Speeches are worked out in detail to ensure every word is accurate beforehand.

No, these words came straight from a heart that is black as coal and a soul that is dead and decaying. I only pray she can someday find redemption. That's another of those tenets of Christianity, and one many have a lot of trouble with: we are all children of God, even those, like Hochul, who are fighting Him at every opportunity. I do not hate them; I hate the one who they have sworn allegiance to.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: MDDoxs
a reply to: Sookiechacha

You take issue with a word, apostle. Got it! You think her calling on Christians apostles to help promote her belief that God wants people vaccinated is blasphemy.

I agree with you. I feel that the concept of an "apostle" is a human one. They are fundamentally, as I understand it, a messenger to spread the word of god as told by Jesus. So, why cant there be more? Was it forbade to have more apostles/messengers of god? What is the pope?

1 Corinthians 12
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

If the church was to continue, then there must be new generations of apostles, prophets, teachers, miracle workers and healers, helping and guiding people of "different tongues".

Nowadays, it's all semantics.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

modern day apostles for a Christian cause today

There is only one cause for any true Christian: to bring the lost to salvation and glorify God.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Prophet? No. She never assumed any such mantel. And, her take on God's desire for Christians to be safe from COVID by getting a vaccine, and for others to assist God in this movement is only to offensive to Christians who don't agree with her assessment of vaccines.

She assumed that mantle (if only briefly) the moment she said she knew that God wanted them vaccinated, and if they disagree, they aren't listening to god. Nevertheless, the point isn't worth going into a lengthy post to prove my assertion biblically. Suffice it to say, she assumed to speak for God and solicit apostles.

As I recall, all Christians are called to wear the armor of God and to evangelize as the original apostles did.

Correct, although I'm not sure what that has to do with this discussion.

Then you weren't listening, because both Trump and Pence invoked God in their political arguments again and again.

What you heard was Trump (and others) asserting what God has already spoken to in the bible. Christians can speak to what God wants biblically because they have that authority as Christians. As long as what they speak aligns with scripture, they are not in error. It's when they speak things there is no supporting scripture for that gets them in trouble.

My whole point in the OP is not to defend Christianity. I'm a certified, card carrying heathen through and through. My point in the OP is that what she tried to do was ludicrous to say the least. All she did was make a fool of herself to the majority of Christians that heard her say it, as well as offend them.

It would be like telling a Muslim that Allah says pork is good to eat.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

It would be better if you did.

I am a child of the living God, Jehovah. I pledge my life to HIm and will live by His will, thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth.

Can you say those words?

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

What she said was that Christians should abandon their apostleship to God to be apostles to her.

No it isn't. That's what you want her to mean.

a reply to: MDDoxs

I was playing a hunch based on your "eliminate all religion from politics" comment. That position is generally held by Democrats in this country. Libertarians generally would word it as "keep politics and religion separate" because they recognize that the separation of church and state was as much about keeping politics from dictating American's free exercise of their religions as it was to prevent religion from controlling political positions in the US. Folks on my side will usually word it as "eliminate politics from religion."

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Sookiechacha

It would be better if you did.

I am a child of the living God, Jehovah. I pledge my life to HIm and will live by His will, thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth.

Can you say those words?

TheRedneck

Nobody cares what you think of yourself. This isn't about you! It's about Gov. Hochul's belief that "God wants Christians vaccinated".