Finally! Forensic Election Audit in Maricopa County (AZ) Begins Next Week

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Boadicea

If we keep fighting all the elections — no ones gonna be in charge.

There is a reason votes are certified.

As in the case of the hanging chads — changes were made. As will be the case this time for future elections — if necessary.

That's the absolute best thing we can hope for. Knowing where the weak links are is important, but then corrections are crucial. If we can achieve necessary and proper reforms, then we all win. Anything and everything we can do to trust our election process -- and therefore the results and its certification -- is good for all of us.

I know I only speak for myself, but removing Biden achieves nothing, and it's premature anyway until we have something definitive to go on. There certainly isn't anyone better to replace him. The corruption is bigger than Biden or anyone person. We just need to get through it and see where all this takes us.

a reply to: Boadicea

And if no corruption is found?

Talking like it’s a “given” — does not make it so.

a reply to: Annee

If no corruption is found we will be one step closer to this unity Joe claims he wants

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Boadicea

And if no corruption is found?

No further corruption. The County Recorder -- Fontes -- already did us dirty when he arbitrarily changed the rules and instructed election workers to deny voters new ballots. Fontes then quite brazenly defied a Supreme Court order to cease. This was compounded by Sharpiegate. (ETA:
Most/all were later "adjudicated" by an election worker. The voter was denied his/her right to his/her legal and rightful opportunity to vote for him/herself.) I have no idea how many numbers were effected, and I would like to know, but any number is too many. I don't think there is any place in our elections for "adjudicating" and "curing" ballots under any circumstances, and especially not these circumstances. There is too much room for abuse, both through honest mistakes and ill will.

There is plenty to address there in necessary and proper election reform.

Talking like it’s a “given” — does not make it so.

Well, for the reasons above, it is a given to me -- and Maricopa County. Perhaps it should be for the State as well.

But I was also responding to your premise "if necessary," which would make it "a given" that I was addressing. And it was easy enough because it already is my premise! (There's my confirmation bias)

Lol
Have to have sunshine to make sure no corruption occurred
Too bad so many are against such sunshine

Why is transparency so hard?

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Boadicea

If we keep fighting all the elections — no ones gonna be in charge.

There is a reason votes are certified.

As in the case of the hanging chads — changes were made. As will be the case this time for future elections — if necessary.

honestly curious did you feel that way in 2000?

Lotta people didnt accept it for years, remember the dissent is patriotic bumper stickers from back then?

I was ok with the dissent even if I thought it was silly, lotta people I know in real life that raged about bush think its a threat to democracy to question bidens victory now.

Yet none of them can explain why its different now..

originally posted by: Irishhaf

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Boadicea

If we keep fighting all the elections — no ones gonna be in charge.

There is a reason votes are certified.

As in the case of the hanging chads — changes were made. As will be the case this time for future elections — if necessary.

honestly curious did you feel that way in 2000?

Lotta people didnt accept it for years, remember the dissent is patriotic bumper stickers from back then?

I was ok with the dissent even if I thought it was silly, lotta people I know in real life that raged about bush think its a threat to democracy to question bidens victory now.

Yet none of them can explain why its different now..

At that time I was following Black Box Voting. There seemed to be a lot of shenanigans going on. Not just Florida.

There was an Australian voting machine that provided a paper receipt — and was about half what Diebolt cost. Research who had a stake in Diebold.

I think a lot was handled poorly in 2000.

The push from that fiasco was needed to have more integrity in future elections. We may not be there yet.

Let’s move onto Trump. I’m very anti-Trump, but Hillary conceded and his win was certified without fuss.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Guiltyguitarist
a reply to: Irishhaf

If Biden is found to not be the legitimate president, any court siding with him would be illegitimate.

You don’t let the rapist finish the deed just because he’s inside of you. Unless you’re Tara Reade.

He is legitimate because the votes were certified.

Which means what exactly? In your own words.

originally posted by: Guiltyguitarist

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Guiltyguitarist
a reply to: Irishhaf

If Biden is found to not be the legitimate president, any court siding with him would be illegitimate.

You don’t let the rapist finish the deed just because he’s inside of you. Unless you’re Tara Reade.

He is legitimate because the votes were certified.

Which means what exactly? In your own words.

It’s how the system works.

Otherwise there’d be no government.

originally posted by: Guiltyguitarist
a reply to: Irishhaf

If Biden is found to not be the legitimate president, any court siding with him would be illegitimate.

As MSNBC stated last week, if the Arizona audit results create enough doubt, thereby triggering audits in PA, GA, WI, MI, etc., Joe Biden will essentially be an instant "lame duck", due to being viewed as illegitimate by the people of America.

Furthermore, Biden will have to further explain the "Election Fraud Organization" he bragged about in October 2020. Those who put it together and participated, will need to be identified.

Measures will need to be put in place to neutralize the intentional election-law abuse and cheating that occurred, prior to the 2022 mid-terms.

I think we can agree that if true proof of election fraud happened, enough to make a difference in how the votes were "certified," there will be about half of America who won't accept it; no matter what. They've already said there was no election fraud, from a point of not being privy to any of the actual election information, so this makes their "opinion" basically useless. Anybody who makes a claim with nothing to back it up with, is just speaking their opinion. If election fraud is found, that makes their "opinion" no longer an opinion. They're just wrong. Facts don't lie.

a reply to: TrulyColorBlind
Seems to me that group trusts the original group of bean counters and there is another group placing their trust in the new group of bean counters. Doesn't mean either group is actually bringing the "facts".

What guarantee is there that this new group is even looking at the "actual election information"?

The only fact is that unless you check and count every vote yourself you are placing faith in other people and people sometimes lie.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: TrulyColorBlind
Seems to me that group trusts the original group of bean counters and there is another group placing their trust in the new group of bean counters. Doesn't mean either group is actually bringing the "facts".

What guarantee is there that this new group is even looking at the "actual election information"?

The only fact is that unless you check and count every vote yourself you are placing faith in other people and people sometimes lie.

A recount, even a hand recount and basic audit, is not a forensic audit. You really should go back and see what was done previously. It is nothing like what is being done now. What was done before would not be expected to find different results of more than onesie-twosie no matter if there were fraud or not.

Yes, what is being done now could be even better, but there has been a huge effort to cast doubt on even the audit and make it difficult by actors from Maricopa County and the media. Remember how difficult it was for them to enforce the subpoenas and MC decided last minute to force them to move the machines (further creating avenues for doubt).

Again, think carefully how you would be feeling if you were watching from another country. Objectivity is key to character.

a reply to: Annee

I agree there were still questions after Busch was certified, just like non-trumpers have questions now and everyone seems to want to tell them to shut up and sit down.

Oddly enough the F up that is Florida fixed itself with elections, this past election was one of the best ones in a very long time with that state and its something they continue to spend money and training on.

I actually doubt any provable in a court of law evidence will be found on a large scale problem, but we should still investigate do the forensic audits, double check the process the audits use and then let the people know the results.

filing law suit after lawsuit to try and derail audits is just going to make the conspiracy minded more certain something went wrong, and undermine future results.

a reply to: carewemust

As MSNBC stated last week, if the Arizona audit results create enough doubt, thereby triggering audits in PA, GA, WI, MI, etc., Joe Biden will essentially be an instant "lame duck", due to being viewed as illegitimate by the people of America.

I'm surprised MSNBC came right out and said it. It's true, but Big Media isn't big on truth. It would be much more than just the nation though. The whole world would know he's illegitimate. And I'm not sure they don't already.

It's also constantly in my mind that if there were foreign involvement, then they know. No suspicions necessary. And they now own this presidency and anyone who can be blackmailed with their role in it.

Furthermore, Biden will have to further explain the "Election Fraud Organization" he bragged about in October 2020. Those who put it together and participated, will need to be identified.

That has "Obama" written all over it. If Obama wasn't calling the shots, then Obama taught them well before. Because they were working right out of Obama's "understand-the-law-so-you-can-subvert-the-law" playbook.

Measures will need to be put in place to neutralize the intentional election-law abuse and cheating that occurred, prior to the 2022 mid-terms.

Which will come down to the State Legislators. Time is short. I really hope folks are working on that legislation now and will have it ready to go when the time is right.

If the 2020 election was certified falsely, it will have to be de-certified. It well be re-certified as being won by President Trump. Biden will then be removed and replaced by Pres. Trump. This will happen. Fraud is crime and they will not get away with it. Remember, this is the United States of America.

originally posted by: TrulyColorBlind
I think we can agree that if true proof of election fraud happened, enough to make a difference in how the votes were "certified," there will be about half of America who won't accept it; no matter what.

I agree in principle... but I don't think it will be half. I'd say about two-thirds will accept the results, and of the other third, a good portion will not be convinced one way or the other. Some will absolutely refuse to believe it no matter what. And of course those who already know it but refuse to admit it because they'd go to jail.

I would expect about the same numbers no matter which way it goes. In other words, if no fraud is found, then the same numbers will believe and not believe.

a reply to: daskakik

Reasonable people will accept reasonable efforts with reasonable results.

Reasonable people understand that there are no absolutes, and that they cannot personally know the truth. So reasonable people rely on reasonable safeguards and checks and balances to keep the process fair and honest; and the same for audits.

There will be those who will exploit the lack of absolute certainty, but only for their own purposes. Some political, some just for kicks and giggles.

TGP EXCLUSIVE: What I Witnessed on the Arizona Auditing Floor – The Ballots Are Scanned, Tested and Documented – The Process is Well Organized and VERY Secure

Regarding the auditing process itself:

On Saturday, May 1st, I volunteered to observe the Maricopa County Audit process at the Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix, Arizona. Upon arrival, I checked in with the police at the entrance, who confirmed my name was on the list and directed me to the coliseum entrance. When I entered the building, I went through more check-in procedures, received my name badge, and locked all of my belongings in a locker with a security code. I was only allowed a red pen and a piece of paper on me while observing.

The first thing I noticed was the videographer, who documents and records everything (ex. any issue with ballots upon opening box). I observed teams of three “counters” checking each ballot on a rotating table and adding a timestamp to each tally sheet. I saw that the counting of votes was in good hands and was being performed with speed, accuracy, and honor. It was a smooth process.

After a box of ballots was counted, the ballot box chain of custody is then updated.

Then the ballot is taken to a forensic scanning station to test the weight, texture, ballot watermarks, and vote bubbles. These tests are used to authenticate the ballot. Each ballot is photographed; a forensic scan is taken, ballots are numbered and issues are recorded on the paper examination log. After this process is completed, the chain of custody is updated again and the box is sealed with the tape color of the team who counted. Everything that happens in this room is recorded and documented – Everything!

Regarding the "reps" from the SoS's office:

Democrat Operatives on the Floor of the Coliseum–

Two observers caught my eye because they were in pink shirts, unlike the rest of us. I asked one of them why that was and he said, “I’m from the Secretary of State’s office.” He declined to talk to me further. Every other time I saw him, he was whispering to his comrade, who was also in a pink shirt.

If I'm understanding correctly, these pink shirt guys are probably one and the same as these guys:

Ward said that through a court-pushed agreement between the parties, “Arizona Secretary of State (SoS), Democrat Hack Katie Hobbs” gained access to the audit floor for three representatives. But now we have learned those “observers” monitoring the audit are not even from the SoS’s office. One is an “election consultant” with Protect Democracy, and the other is an attorney with The Brennan Center. Not coincidental, it so happens that they are the same Washington groups who urged the Feds to “monitor” the audit.

HUGE: Arizona GOP Leader Kelli Ward Sounds the Alarm – Dem Secretary of State Hobbs Is Sneaking Dem Operatives from Biased Orgs into Maricopa County Audit

Anywho, the audit will continue today...

The Duties of the Green Shirts, Yellow Shirts and Blue Shirts in Arizona Maricopa County’s Forensic Audit Currently in Progress

Those wearing blue shirts as we explained previously are looking for folds in the paper ballots....

Another report from TenNaple was about the yellow shirts. These individuals are looking at mail-in ballots...

TenNaple says the duty of the green shirts is to examine those ballots which are lined up in error – potentially intentionally so they can be adjudicated.

This is why there is no place in our elections for "adjudicating" or "curing" ballots. There's just too much opportunity for abuse, whether by human error or human malice. For example:

The Election Assistance Commission (originally the Federal Election Commission) allows a maximum error rate of just 0.0008 percent (pdf). That is, the 68.05 percent audited error rate for Dominion software in Antrim County is a staggering 85,000 times the allowable error rate.

This must be addressed in any meaningful election reform. If we must have adjudication (but we really don't), then an allowable margin should be established, and if the number of adjudicated ballots exceeds that amount, the election should be declared null and void, and a new election held. Yup, that would be a major PITA. But it's better than stolen elections.