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a reply to: andy06shake

It’s like pissing on a forest fire. A futile endeavour which just prolongs the inevitable spread. We would be better served taking Sweden’s approach with quarantining, supporting and isolating the elderly and vulnerable. Herd immunity is the only way out of this other than rushed vaccines which will be ineffective within a season.

Opening schools as a hive of infection permeating through a demographic generally asymptomatic then expecting face masks in shops to stop the spread is stupidity. Consider the shop staff and shelf stackers who touch every item don’t wear masks.

a reply to: Grenade

So you don’t think the pandemic has been used by governments to limit civil liberties?

Please give me some examples and why you personally think they have been unreasonable given the circumstances?

We must be living in parallel universes then because last I checked that’s exactly what’s happening to an ever increasing extent.

Again, how are they 'increasing'?

What is the purpose behind this?
Why are 'they' allegedly taking away our civil liberties?
Who are 'they' and how the # do 'they' benefit from #ing the economy and making us all stay in our homes?

a reply to: Grenade

PPE is what we have Grenade, at least to date, you have to work with the tools you have in the bag.

As to opening the Schools, well my boys primary took about a fortnight for COVID to raise its nut, the down shot being 5 COVID 19 test all round for my household and 120+ hours waiting on the results.

All negative thank feck.

Funnily enough, no social distancing or wearing of masks was compulsory, for the kids attending or from the parents dropping them off and picking them up at the school.

Herd immunity will kill a few 100,000, possibly up to million people before it has any real effect in retarding the spread of the pathogen.

That's not tenable nor acceptable by any manner nor means.

As to shop staff inadvertently infecting products, we have been wiping all the food purchased from ASDA and the like with antibacterial spray, dont know how good it will do all the same, but seems like the best of ideas.

a reply to: Freeborn

“They” would require a whole new thread to define the objectives. I’m at work now but I’ll be happy to give you my take on this once I get some time to sit down and provide you the source material. Essentially I believe it’s to usher in the new cashless technological digital revolution.

As for unreasonable, I believe lockdown and the economic impact is doing more harm and will cause more deaths worldwide than the virus ever could. Not just the elderly and vulnerable but through the systemic starvation of hundreds of millions of the planets poorest people. Would you rather your child caught a mild virus or watch them starve to death because the government have taken away your ability to provide for them in order to protect the most wealthy members of society?

www.telegraph.co.uk...

reliefweb.int...

www.nytimes.com...

www.npr.org... 0595720

a reply to: andy06shake

100,000 deaths from covid in the first world or 120+ million in the third.

a reply to: Grenade

I was reffering to the UK Grenade should we be silly enouth to disregard proper procedures and PPE and just say "feck it lets just sit back and see what happens next".

Because what will happen next is that our hospitals and care facilities will become overwhelmed and people will start dying en masse.

a reply to: Grenade

We are all aware of these theories - or we should be otherwise why on earth are we members of a site like ATS? - and I'm sure we all have our own take on them, I know I do.

But you and others have been at times hinting that not wearing masks is somehow going to help stop this mass conspiracy.

I'd really love to know how?

And I dare say we all also have our own ideas on who 'they' are, how much control 'they' actually have over us and what their intentions are etc.
As much as I'd enjoy discussing these things with you, as you rightly say this is definitely not the time or place.....but I'd like to know how you think not wearing a mask will make any difference whatsoever to any of that?

You said the the government had been using this pandemic to limit civil liberties, I asked for examples.
You said these instances had been 'increasing', I asked how.

You still haven't supplied anything to support your statements.

Hopefully you will when you finish work?

a reply to: andy06shake

Hospitals and ICU units are well below capacity and down on previous year patient numbers by around 40%. Was Sweden’s healthcare system overwhelmed?

a reply to: Grenade

Sweden has a population of around 10.23 million souls.

We have 66.65 million peeps to contend with.

A lot of people have a better quality of life over there also which does indeed have an effect on the mortality rates.

Less poverty, less homelessness, it all factors into the equations.

We are not Sweden just as Sweden is not the U.K.

I'm not particularly concerned about how Sweden is handling the COVID 19 affair, more concerned with the mess my own government is making if I'm honest.

originally posted by: SecretKnowledge

originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: SecretKnowledge
a reply to: panoz77

Wow, just unbelievable..

When i said post a photo of a crowd of people like 20 or more, i obviously meant one were they are all wearing masks.
Granted you posted pics of crowds of people, but only a few are wearing masks in them.

Is it really that hard to understand?

Every link you posted there are less than 10 people wearing masks in them...

Just stop

You can't find a picture today with COVID of ALL people wearing masks, just stop, you are wrong.

The other poster claimed that everyone in China before covid wore masks.

I asked him to post some photo's of a crowd of people all wearing masks pre 2020.

Thats where you jumped in.

And this...

You can't find a picture today with COVID of ALL people wearing masks

...just proved my point.

Everyone was not literal. Many wore masks due to the pollution, many people, not all, not everyone. Point being many in Asian countries wore masks prior to 2020, back to 2016 and earlier.

a reply to: Freeborn

Sure I can, my iPhone is a hunk of junk so it’s difficult to link and provide sources.

Tbh it’s blatantly obvious what I’m referring to. The closure of schools, the restrictions on work, travel and gatherings.

I can’t even legally visit my mother who has lung and cervical cancer, despite her and my own wishes. Isolating people carrying a virus is quarantine, isolating the healthy is tyranny.

a reply to: andy06shake

So comparative to Scotland? A country with even stricter lockdown measures than the rest of the uk.

The whole thing has been inflated beyond doubt.

Up until last week if you had a positive corona virus in March and died in a car crash in August you were counted on the tally. Now it’s only 28 days but still absolutely ridiculous skewing of the numbers.

a reply to: Grenade

Don't know about people dying in car crashes in August being counted as dying of COVID 19, any facts or links to back that statement?

Just for insurance purposes i don't imagine the above would fly.

Comparative speaking i think the Scottish people are doing ok and keeping the head in general.

Most people i know don't have an issue with PPE and have indeed been self-isolating if in any COVID dought.

If the whole thing had been inflated beyond dought there would not be 40,000+ dead people down to the pathogen now would there and the R rate back on the rise once again?

Out of all the things Boris is lying about the incoming second wave is not one of them im afraid in as much as i would like it to be the case.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Grenade

Don't know about people dying in car crashes in August being counted as dying of COVID 19, any facts or links to back that statement?

Just for insurance purposes i don't imagine the above would fly.

Comparative speaking i think the Scottish people are doing ok and keeping the head in general.

Most people i know don't have an issue with PPE and have indeed been self-isolating if in any COVID dought.

If the whole thing had been inflated beyond dought there would not be 40,000+ dead people down to the pathogen now would there and the R rate back on the rise once again?

There are almost certainly some deaths included that shouldn't be for various reasons.

These are massively outweighed by deaths not included in official figures as shown by the increase in weekly death rates.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: Freeborn

So you don’t think the pandemic has been used by governments to limit civil liberties? We must be living in parallel universes then because last I checked that’s exactly what’s happening to an ever increasing extent.

As soon as the infection rates seemed under control the restrictions were removed or eased*

The idea that this is a government power grab is clearly wrong.

* to early in my view but that is a different discussion.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Aye, i imagine there would be some, but not the card Grenade is attempting to play.

Everyone who died in a car crash in the month of August cannot be down to COVID 19.

The death rate and figures speak for themselves.

a reply to: Grenade

Sure I can, my iPhone is a hunk of junk so it’s difficult to link and provide sources.

No problem.

Tbh it’s blatantly obvious what I’m referring to. The closure of schools, the restrictions on work, travel and gatherings.

I don't see how the closure of schools - espicially considering the absolute joke The National Curriculun is - benefits TPTB that you seem to be alluding to.
Restrictions on work is simply #ing the economy up, how that would benefit TPTB is beyond me.

I see how restrictions on travel may be contrued as an onvasion of civil liberties....but you seem to be ignoring the reasoning behind it: the spread of the virus.

As for gatherings: I assure you, no-one - and I mean no-one - likes to party as much as I do, at 55 years old I can still out party the vast majority of 20-30 year olds I've met.
The way some of these people in that age group have been acting has been indefensible and just typical of the 'me, me, me' generation we've produced.
If they'd have acted resposibly and adhered to other guidelines many of these restrictions would not have been necessary.
Short term pain, long term gain seems beyond their comprehension.

But how does wearing a mask, or not wearing a mask, have any bearing on any of that?

I can’t even legally visit my mother who has lung and cervical cancer, despite her and my own wishes.

Appalling and again, indefensible.
I can not even begin to think how awful that is for you and your mother and I fail to see why you are prevented from doing so, especially if you were wearing a mask.
That has no bearing on the effictiveness of wearing a mask but just highlights the inconsistencies of government instructions and their total incompetence in their handling of this pandemic.

Its not part of a huge conspiracy, just outright ineptitude bordering on criminal negligence.

Isolating people carrying a virus is quarantine, isolating the healthy is tyranny.

The problem arises when it is impossible to differentiate between the two.
Yet again, further evidence of government incompetence.
The testing system we have is a farce.....and that is solely down to the governments mis-handling of the situation.

We need to put party politics aside, act as if it were wartime and have a national government whose sole focus is dealing with this pandemic and its effects.

a reply to: andy06shake

Now you know.

www.bbc.co.uk...

“ Previously, people in England who died at any point following a positive test, regardless of cause, were counted in the figures.”

“It seemed very odd when we learned last month that PHE's figures included everyone who had tested positive, even if they died months afterwards and their death may have had another cause.“

“In England, there was no time limit. Someone who recovered from Covid-19 in March and died in a car crash in July would have been counted as a coronavirus death.”

Just some of the highlights from the BBC of all places.

a reply to: Grenade

If that's the case then its very misleading and counterproductive to the situation nevermind the gathering of statistical information pertaining to the subject and pathogen.

Then again im apt to trust the BBC about as much as i am to give access to there licensing goons.

These after all are the same bastards that shielded the likes of Jimmy Savile.

You need to realize though that even with a discrepancy of 5,000 poor sods, the numbers death rate wise are still way through the roof.

a reply to: andy06shake

They’re still counting every death in the figures regardless of the cause up to 28 days. Suicides, murders, car crashes, heart attacks etc etc.

uk.mobile.reuters.com...

www.theguardian.com...