Breaking BAASS, Assessing AATIP and Doubting Thomas ‘DeLonge’

originally posted by: Jukiodone

originally posted by: mirageman

Not sure how this turned into a Lazar debate.

Fravor now seems to believe at least some of Lazar's story

He also mentions how he was told AATIP was outside of FOIA when they contacted him for the official unofficial investigation in 2009.

Fravor, on the vid at 49 min mark, certainly does say that Lazar is a very legit and smart guy and that Lazar explained the seamlessness of the alien craft as something along the lines (but not really) to how we 3D print objects that are seamless today, but in 1989 he could not explain the seamlessness.

"But it's against the physics" - no - "It's against the physics we know now".

originally posted by: mirageman
This might reveal a few things about Big Bobelow....

He rarely gives interviews.

Bigelow grew up near Las Vegas in the 40s and 50's childhood interest in science inspired by the Nuclear test site activity.
His father died/was abducted when he was still just a child, his math skills were not his strong suit.
Seems to have a pretty good grip on the hidden 1960's technology and mentions Stan Friedman.

a reply to: Bordon81

Bob Bigelow's father was killed in a plane crash in December of 1962 when Bob was 17. His father was not abducted.

There is a report here : law.justia.com...

a reply to: mirageman

Right, its unlikely his father was working at the atomic test site.
The report said when the flight plan was filed Lockheed Burbank was the alternate airport.
This makes sense if they were expecting sea fog since Lockheed Burbank is further inland.

This was released by the CIA though a RFI.
Back in the 50's Lockheed only allowed 1 in 60 of its employees to have any knowledge of this project.

www.c-span.org.../angels-paradise-development-2-area-51

originally posted by: mirageman

It looks like someone needed a revival.

Hey mate did you catch the latest 'Daily Mail' BS?

a reply to: karl 12

Yep I responded in another thread about this. The Daily Mail is a trash tabloid.


There are other sources available on this story.


Flying Saucer Review [2001]

THE UFO FILES OF MUSSOLINI: Fascist UFO Files by Roberto Pinotti

...Are the “Fascist UFO Files” authentic? Obviously, considering the technical forensic analysis conducted for CUN, the answer is positive for me and my colleague Alfredo Lissoni (who, in the Archives of the Prefecture in Milan, also found about 500 copies of telegrams of the Prefects of the Kingdom of Italy to the Government, between 1933 and 1938, some of which concerned definite reports of “Unconventional Flying Vehicles” and showed the attention Italian Authorities directed to the problem). So they appear genuine, in spite of the fact that critics do not accept them as proper “historical documents”. But even if we considered them only as a sort of “private correspondence”, the fact that they mention the UFO the phenomenon in a report dated 1936 cannot be ignored.....

And for Italian speakers

I “files fascisti” sotto esame

The conclusions of which are (taken from Google translate]

To sum up:
1) the documents come from an anonymous source;

2) the documents o are manuscripts without any formal element that qualifies them as belonging to a documentary complex of an archive public or are photocopies of no archival value;

3) the documents for now do not appear at all be available to anyone that - like us - wants to have them examined by other experts;

4) handwritten documents, which are much less "explosive" (indeed sometimes are certainly insignificant) of photocopies as to the content of the news reported, would be of very ancient date on the basis of a graphic expertise of which, however, we have so far only the final conclusions without knowing in detail the examinations conducted;

5) the documents would have been "very secret", but they seem to have traveled many circuits in spite of theirs alleged confidentiality;

6) by Lissoni's own admission, there is no trace in the archives of confirmation of the news reported on documents, except for the dossiers of the State Archives of Milan, the meaning of which was – as previously written – completely misunderstood by Lissoni. In conclusion, we would like to reiterate with firmness that, despite the critical tones, the intent of those who want to study a such a story cannot be that of trying to demonstrate the “falseness” of those cards. It would be illogical. This falsehood has not yet been proven, but it was intended to emphasize that there are numerous and serious weaknesses in the arguments made to support the significance of these documents. On the basis of the evidence produced so far, we believe that an Abrahamic faith is really necessary to share the conclusions drawn by Pinotti and Lissoni about the content of these documents.

I think the consensus seems to be the story is unverified and probably a hoax.

A lot of old stuff is being "rebunked". Usually by people who have worked in alphabet agencies or have friends in the media. No matter how poor the evidence is. Maybe that's the intention?

a reply to: mirageman

Which is the reporter this time. I try not to look. There was Jon Austin, then Potter and whoever else that keeps peddling the never ending array of gutter trash, folks seem to lap it up too.

Bla bla...

New developments in the TTSA saga.

Spaceship of Fools

Major U.S. media and Congressional leadership swallow new unverified stories of alien visitations. Allegations of fraud filed with the SEC against conspiracy-promoting former DOD officials, rocker Tom DeLonge and the company they fronted for peddling false UFO-related claims....

.....Two former Defense Department officials, Luis “Lue” Elizondo and Christopher Mellon, came forward a few years ago to expose what they deemed a government cover-up of UFOs.

Now the Securities and Exchange Commission is apparently poised to initiate a fraud investigation of the company they helped launch in 2017, following its multimillion-dollar pleas for investment. The potential for an investigation is also driven by concerns raised in an extensive whistleblower complaint by a skeptic, as well as the substance of a previous SEC lawsuit against the company that was aborted in 2019. (Documents relating to this lawsuit have been obtained by The Washington Spectator.)....

In 2017, DeLonge’s company claimed it was engaging in rigorous research led by Elizondo and the TTSA co-founder, physicist Hal Puthoff, gathering alien “metamaterial” they asserted could be genuine. These findings were touted as coming from the Roswell, N.M., “alien” crash site that has long been considered foundational to modern UFO mythology but which the U.S Air Force reports was actually the location of a 1947 crash of a high-altitude spy balloon. In any case, part of the metamaterial was exposed as industrial slag in the 1990s. Some of the metal scraps were then passed off to the Army as part of its nearly $1 million 2019 contract with TTSA.

Puthoff may not be as well known to the general public as today’s other UFO influencers, but he is the Zelig of unproven supernatural and UFO speculation. An ex-Scientologist involved in over 40 years of fruitless research, he led the failed $20 million, 23-year CIA psychic “remote viewing” project. One viewer he tested was fellow Scientologist Ingo Swann, who claimed to provide a detailed view of Mars and Jupiter with his mind. Puthoff also endorsed the powers of spoon-bending “psychic” Uri Geller; Geller’s mind over matter powers were called into question in a cringe-inducing segment in 1973 on The Johnny Carson Show....

The SEC has received a complaint, filed by investigative skeptic and intelligence analyst Kal Korff, alleging deceptive practices and possible criminal fraud by TTSA. Controversies over UFOs have ebbed and flowed since the 1940s, but Korff’s multiple whistleblower complaints—accompanied by thousands of pages of evidentiary slides and countless documents—are the first major effort to hold the purveyors of alleged UFO-related fraud and waste accountable....

While The Washington Spectator has not confirmed each allegation in the nearly 2,000 pages in Korff’s SEC complaint against TTSA, it has confirmed the thrust of Korff’s wider complaints to the SEC and other agencies concerning waste and fraud. The well-documented allegations are based both on insider documents he obtained and open-source records. With respect to the TTSA complaint, lawyers on behalf of DeLonge, the company and Elizondo deny any wrongdoing, as has Mellon, while other leading figures at TTSA haven’t commented on the allegations....

Full Story : Washington Spectator

Archived Link

a reply to: mirageman

It mentions the CRADA materials!

*Does a dance.

Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the words Malfeasance and Securities Fraud.



ETA: Sort of related- Did you see one of the potential naughty list'ers changed their name this week?....Raytheon wants to be known as RTX Corp from the 27th of July.

a reply to: mirageman

Here we go………a Lollapa-looser


👽

Mh ...Korff is back again



www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: TheMadScientist2

I'm saying nothing, except one can't dream this crazy UFO stuff up!

a reply to: TheMadScientist2

Yes he has previous as they say.

For "investigative skeptic and intelligence analyst " , I just see yet another "UFO entrepreneur".

But the whole TTSA saga has left a lot of eager investors with nothing to show for their money.

a reply to: mirageman

I think the next months will be decisive, now we are in the balance between the two possibilities ...
In the next months we will know if there are "aliens" or if it is an incredible intelligence hoax
In any case we will have some answers ... finally!!!

On a sidenote:

I was always curious who was actually part of the AATIP-programm. Last month "americans for safe aerospace " announced the inclusion of Michael Greene.

www.safeaerospace.org...

According to his bio he was an "Ex-AATIP analyst"
He is also the husband of Alex Dietrich ( interesting connection).

According to Dietrich :

And to be clear…Michael did not work for Lue. He had a separate chain of command and was asked to support the AATIP analysis as a collateral duty. He was active duty at the time with an aviation background, astronomy & physics undergrad and engineering masters degrees.

So we have an AATIP analyst who never worked for the AATIP program director ....

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: TheMadScientist2

Yes he has previous as they say.

For "investigative skeptic and intelligence analyst " , I just see yet another "UFO entrepreneur".

One of the previous observations about Kal was that he was always threatening to complain or file lawsuits but rarely did he ever follow through with the threats. But apparently, this time with the complaint to the SEC about TTSA, he actually followed through, with over 2000 pages, no less!

But the whole TTSA saga has left a lot of eager investors with nothing to show for their money.

If Kal's 2000+ page complaint helps some investors recoup some of their lost investment then he will have accomplished something, but I'd have to see it to believe it. I suspect investors will just have to take their losses for believing the fairy tale hype about TTSA promises "to build a Star Trek–style spaceship to travel “instantly” through the cosmos"."*

*Kudos to Art Levine for the Spaceship of Fools story. I wish more journalists had the balls to tell the truth about these scams.

originally posted by: TheMadScientist2
So we have an AATIP analyst who never worked for the AATIP program director ....

Interesting!

But didn't Lue claim he was in charge of AATIP? It's a weird chain of command if he was in charge but had an analyst in a separate chain of command, isn't it?

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Maybe the TTSA story will end up on American Greed. Likely, our UK brothers don’t know about this cable series. Very popular on CNBC, the money channel where very topical scams are highlighted.

If this lawsuit turns out to be some financial swindling, they will turn up on American Greed.

I would imagine TSAA will claim they didn’t guarantee big profits, but maybe there is something there.

Interestingly, this article says this:

‘Growth in UFO cults and cult-like behavior, violence and cyber-stalking by UFO zealots raise new concerns.’

...” Buoyed by largely uncritical media hype, he’s asserted that the government has been hiding a secret alien crash retrieval program; the pope tipped off the United States to a UFO retrieved by Mussolini (a long discredited hoax); alien corpses have been recovered by U.S. officials; and humans have been killed by aliens.”

I never knew it was that bad. Ufology conspiracies rarely, as I’ve seen, claim murders. They sometimes speculate, but I haven’t seen any murder claims much, save from the more bizarre Phillip Schneider-type conspiracies.

IMO, this shows us Grusch is a flimsy “ whistleblower” very suspect merely peddling run-of-the-mill old ufo conspiracies.

Maybe he’s legitimately naïve and has heard some water cooler rumors, or maybe he’s part of a more sinister TTSA-style psyop disinformation scheme.

a reply to: TheMadScientist2

Another interesting connection. AATIP seems to have been used as a nickname by Harry Reid to disguise AAWSAP. Then El Zondo ran with it to create his own "activity" in his spare time from his desk in the Pentagon.

Which would explain why everything is vague and there are no official records that can be FOIA'd. It doesn' explain why Greene is an "ex-AATIP analyst". Unless this was another spare time activity called the Alternative Aerospace Threat Identification Program. That Green also imagined in his head he was taking part in.

There seems to be a bunch of ex-DoD guys telling stories to get funding to study UFO/UAPs from the government.

a reply to: introufo

I must admit that other than the crazy Dulce stories which have little basis in reality,"Murder" by an alien being seems to be something rarely mentioned in the lore.

There is one story : The Mysterious Death of Zigmund Adamski from Yorkshire in the UK. But other than a UFO sighting prior to a body being found on a coal tip there isn't a lot of evidence.

There are others related to pilots chasing UFOs like Thomas Mantell or William Shaffner and suspicious deaths that have been linked to the victims interest in the subject. Not many alien murders, unless you count cattle mutilations.

It leaves me wondering what Grusch has been told and what he can deliver as proof.