Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Pachomius

1c. None of the above

You choose 1c, but I propose only two choices, so perhaps you will elaborate what is your point if any at all with introducing another choice, when I am taking about two contradictory choices, in which case you are in effect not getting connected at all on the subject at hand.

1a. There has always been existence.
1b. There has never been existence.

Dear gentlemen posters my adversaries, here is my explanation in regard to my num 1 step, “1. There has always been existence, (that) this is intrinsically irrefutable,” namely, we first draft a contradictory statement to “There has always been existence,” so that now we have two mutually contradictory statements on the same thought, thus as follow:

1a. There has always been existence.
1b. There has never been existence.

Now we ask ourselves with total honest intelligent productive thinking, which one is true?

For my part I submit that 1a is true, what about you guys and everyone reading this thread?

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Appendix


Pachomius posted on Jan, 29 2021 @ 02:28 AM

Dear everyone with honest intelligent productive thinking, here is my num 1 step of my another ultimate proof for the existence of God (see Appendix below):

1. There has always been existence, this is intrinsically irrefutable.

How do I prove that?

What about dear my adversaries here, that you and I think about the contradictory statement to my num 1 step, namely:

"1. There has never been existence."

Now, let you my adversaries and me choose which of the two statements as follow is true:

1a. There has always been existence.
1b. There has never been existence.

I choose 1a, what about you my adversaries and also all ye with honest intelligent productive thinking?
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I await with bated breath to read your choice, dear my adversaries here.
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Appendix
Pachomius posted on Jan, 27 2021 @ 01:33 AM

Now, all ye readers here, this as follows here is again another ultimate proof - this time shorter, for the existence of God:

1. There has always been existence, this is intrinsically irrefutable.

2. There are transient beings, like us humans, we have a beginning and an ending, that is an intrinsically irrefutable fact.

3. From num 1 and num 2 it follows that there is at least one permanent self-existent entity, and all the rest in existence are transient entities created and kept in existence by that one permanent and self-existent entity. This is an intrinsically irrefutable logical conclusion.

4. There, in nums 1 and 2 and 3 is the how and why everyone with honest intelligent and productive thinking accepts as a fact that is irrefutable, namely:

5. God exists in concept as the permanent self-existent creator of everything that is transient or that is not God Himself.

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Dear everyone, see if you can show that the above explanation for God's existence is founded on the fallacies of begging the question and circular reasoning.
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a reply to: Pachomius

You choose 1c, but I propose only two choices

Because there is more than 2 choices. Not everything fits into “1 if not nor then 2”.

1d. There was no existence. Then there was existence.

That’s 4 choices now.

1e. There was no existence. Then there was existence. Then there will (eventually) be no existence again.

That’s 5 choices now.

Dear readers, what I seem to see with Rings introducing his thought about matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, they just change their respective form, and with Grenade that they can be created and destroyed - what I seem to get from them both is that with Rings he is telling mankind that God is not needed, and with Grenade, God is needed.

Now, perhaps I am getting neither one of them correctly.

So, please Rings and please Grenade, suppose you each one set forth in not more than 100 words your exposition on your respective position, okay?


My purpose here in this my thread is to explain how and why God exists, and in very concise and clear terms, my explanation consists in pointing out that from the fact that we humans are transient entities, ultimately we need God to have created us, and God is the only permanent self-existent entity in the whole total complete realm of existence.


Tell you what, dear everyone, ask yourselves, Am I a permanent entity or a transient entity, there, we can now return to the objective of my thread, the title of which is:

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.


Now, please everyone, when you have no honest intelligent productive thought to contribute to the resolution of the question at hand, God exists or not, may I just gently propose that you just read but don't write here.

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Dear everyone who is into honest intelligent productive thinking, there cannot be more than two contradictory statements on the same thought, like:

1a. There has always been existence.
1b. There has never been existence.

It's like:

A1. Biden is now the president of the USA.
A2. Biden s now not the president of the USA.


So, dear everyone when you want to insist that there are more than two contradictory statements on the same thought, I propose gently that you start your own thread, and I will go there to discuss with you on your idea that there can be more than two contradictory statements on the same thought.

Otherwise, just read, don't write here in my thread here.


And I believe that there is some discipline in this ATS forum against derailing a thread.

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a reply to: Pachomius

1a. There has always been existence.
1b. There has never been existence.

You forgot...
1c. None of the above
1d. There was no existence. Then there was existence.
1e. There was no existence. Then there was existence. Then there will (eventually) be no existence again.

(1c really should be at 1e, but oh well)

originally posted by: TerryDon79

You forgot...
1c. None of the above
1d. There was no existence. Then there was existence.
1e. There was no existence. Then there was existence. Then there will (eventually) be no existence again.

(1c really should be at 1e, but oh well)

You're going to try to claim there is no such thing as existence? Thats the most self-deprecating argument I've ever heard.

Then you also consider the possibility that existence came from non-existance? Something cannot come from nothing. Its one of Newton's laws

a reply to: cooperton

Something cannot come from nothing. Its one of Newton's laws

You mean like a “god that always has been and has no creator”?

If there is a god, there must be a god creator, because “it’s one of Newtons Laws”. Same as the creators creator.

Turtles all the way down.

a reply to: cooperton
a reply to: TerryDon79

Then you also consider the possibility that existence came from non-existance? Something cannot come from nothing. Its one of Newton's laws.
-Cooperton

If there is a god, there must be a god creator, because “it’s one of Newtons Laws”. Same as the creators creator. -Terry

Dear gentlemen posters, Cooperton and Terry, it is to your credibility that you give authentic sources to your respectively referred to Laws of Newton.

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Okay, dear other fellow posters here, what do you say, which one of the two mutually contradictory statements on the same thought is true?

1a. There has always been existence.
1b. There has never been existence.

I choose 1a.

Why? Because the status referred to in 1b is essentially inconceivable, as even the parties involved which are humans are beyond conceivability in the referred to status.

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a reply to: Pachomius

If matter and energy can only transform state then it stands to reason we are eternal beings forged from the transformation of energy through eons of evolution. To suggest our transformation from a rudimentary existence into a complex, ordered and conscious being is the result of random chance is highly unlikely and extremely disingenuous. Our existence is self evidently the result of an orderly system, any arguments against this hypothesis depend on poorly constructed arguments forged from a lack of insight. You should be grateful for the gift of life and dismissal of creation is highly under appreciative. We are the most complex system in the known universe of infinite possibilities yet some are convinced we are nothing more than a result of random chance. Entropy does not create structure.

Atheism is the ultimate fallacy and an affront to the mechanisms controlling our reality. Shame on those who throw away the wondrous gift of life as some random event. The universe provided us with senses in order to reason, it’s a shame we let them go to waste.

a reply to: Grenade


Dear Grenade, thanks a lot for your reply.

I guess I can say that we two are agreed that there is an entity that is permanent and self-existent, that is the ultimate cause of man and the universe and everything that is transient i.e. with a beginning and an ending, but this permanent and self-existent entity, he is not transient, but permanent and self-existent.

Grenade posted on Jan, 30 2021 @ 11:02 AM

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a reply to: Pachomius:

If matter and energy can only transform state then it stands to reason we are eternal beings forged from the transformation of energy through eons of evolution. To suggest our transformation from a rudimentary existence into a complex, ordered and conscious being is the result of random chance is highly unlikely and extremely disingenuous. Our existence is self evidently the result of an orderly system, any arguments against this hypothesis depend on poorly constructed arguments forged from a lack of insight. You should be grateful for the gift of life and dismissal of creation is highly under appreciative. We are the most complex system in the known universe of infinite possibilities yet some are convinced we are nothing more than a result of random chance. Entropy does not create structure.
Atheism is the ultimate fallacy and an affront to the mechanisms controlling our reality. Shame on those who throw away the wondrous gift of life as some random event. The universe provided us with senses in order to reason, it’s a shame we let them go to waste.

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edit on 29/1/21 by Grenade because: (no reason given)
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What has happened to my adversaries, they have suddenly stopped screeching, got tired of their evasive tactics?

And Rings, I uaanderstand that he is into advancing mass and matter and energy as perhaps God, instead of the traditional God, but he conveniently does not dare to ask himself the question, and pray who is in charge of mass, matter, and energy, if as he avers, these things are not created and cannot be destroyed, they only change form.

Ahoy, dear my adversaries here, what do you have in store for your most latest gimmicks against my explanation for the existence of God, on concept as the permanent self-existent cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning and an ending?

Here is my most concise and effective explanation for God's existence:

We are transient entities, that is we humans, that is the evidence for the existence of a permanent self-existent cause for us humans to get into existence, we humans who are transient beings, i.e. we have a beginning and an ending.

There!

Paging, paging, my adversaries, come forth with more evasive diversionary tactics, which are nothing of any virtue to topple my explanation for the existence of God, but only distracting the minds of simple humans, that is all your gimmicks accomplish, nothing but dishonest un-intelligent non-productive thinking from your part.

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There was an old dude called Pachomus
Who thought he could pull the wool over us
With circular logic and a concept of God
He really turned out to be a bit of a fraud
Genuine questions swept aside or ignored
Left most of us feeling really quite bored
So much so that in fact we all turned away
Leaving dear old Pachomus to triumphantly say
I've won, I've won, oh that was such fun
I'll find other forums, I've hardly begun
I'll state my opinion as if it's a fact
And answer all questions without any tact
But deep down he knows that it's all just a game
And circular logic is really quite lame
It doesn't require one smidgeon of proof
And will eternally never lead us to truth

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not. –Title of thread (3352)
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a reply to: midicon

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What is your point, have we met before, though your name Midicom seems to ring a bell.

Right now I am trying to direct posters to two mutually contradictory statements, to choose which is the true one - having chosen the correct true one, then we can arrive at the existence of God, here are the two statements:

1a. There has always been existence.
1b. There has never been existence.

So, which do you choose to be the true statement of the two above?

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a reply to: Pachomius

What is your point

I think my jaunty little rhyme makes my point quite clear.

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not. –Title of thread (3354)
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a reply to: midicon


I believe you are unprofitable, please go away.

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Now, everyone after honest intelligent productive thinking, let us work together to choose which statement is true of the two as follow:

1a. There has always been existence.
1b. There has never been existence.

I choose 1a, because there is no such status of non-existence, so that were you to insanely insist that there was once the status of non-existence, then everyone sane would have to just not give you any attention, as you are definitely irrational, and they being rational should just logically according to your insane idea take you to be non-existing.

Yes, if anyone at all ventures to postulate there was once non-existence, then we must take it as though literally 'true', then abstain from even just looking at him because he now is into non-existence.

Because non-existence cannot lead at all to existence, were that true then we all stop talking right now, because we don't exist: as non-existence cannot lead to existence as we are now in existence, so from that fictional non-existence status we must follow through logically with us all as having suddenly gone up into non-existence in a puff.

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a reply to: Pachomius

It’s real simple. I’ll break it down for you.

1, You didn’t exist.
2, Your parents did the dirty.
3, You came to exist.
4, You die.

So, like I said, non-existence to existence to non-existence.

I’ll go with 1c (none of the above) and 1e.

a reply to: Pachomius

I believe you are unprofitable, please go away.

It appears you missed my point despite it being as clear as the nose on your face. It is a heads up for any unfortunate poster who enters your thread expecting a profitable conversation. It is just one sided silliness chasing it's own tail.

From my personal experience there is an unseen world. I have had years of unwanted abuse from unseen spirit forces when I lived at home with my parents. Family members were involved with sorcery and forms of witchcraft.

Also from personal experience by praying to God I have seen him answer very directly prayers in a very direct way letting me know he was listening to my prayers.

I didn't read through all of the thread to relate this account, but the very first response to you was that no one can prove God to you. No one needs to. God is there and he can prove himself to anyone he wishes as was in my case.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

There is no such thing as sorcery or witchcraft, just silly people playing there own game of dungeons and dragons. When you buy into it you are just playing the game. Personal experience of god proves nothing. Ii's just delusional thinking and confirmation bias. I recommend you watch 'The Atheist Experience', you might lean something and free yourself from superstition. You certainly won't learn anything from this thread.

Oh and a clue about that 'unseen world' lies in the word 'unseen'. You couldn't make it up. Well I suppose someone did so I take that back. No wonder the world's in the state it is with people still believing all this garbage. Perhaps it's some sort of coping mechanism to deal with the harsh realities of life.