Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

Not upset at all, tired of your childish behaviour. Look at your very first post toward me, casting aspersions about my beliefs before any kind of correspondence. You’re extremely rude and have a misplaced self absorbed arrogance. Not only that you lack the vernacular or intellect to offer any real insight or hold a productive debate.

For that reason I’ve had it with you.

Cue the condescending and patronising childish comment lacking intellectual substance...........

“He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God.“

a reply to: Grenade

We know you think im a rude egotistical jerk. Anything else to contribute?

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

No, it’s self evident I don’t need to elaborate further.

originally posted by: Ringsofsaturn777

originally posted by: Pachomius

1. There has always been existence, this is intrinsically irrefutable.

Right.

originally posted by: [post=25734491]Pachomius[/post
2. There are transient beings, like us humans, we have a beginning and an ending, that is an intrinsically irrefutable fact.

Of course.

originally posted by: Pachomius
3. From num 1 and num 2 it follows that there is at least one permanent self-existent entity, and all the rest in existence are transient entities created and kept in existence by that one permanent and self-existent entity. This is an intrinsically irrefutable logical conclusion.

Incorrect.

There is no need to imagine any "permenant self-existent entity" to explain the existence of transient entities.

Matter/energy change form (ie. all forms are transient) but WE KNOW that matter/energy itself cannot be created or destroyed.

We have never observed brand new matter/energy being created and there is no reason to think that it ever has been.

originally posted by: Pachomius

4. There, in nums 1 and 2 and 3 is the how and why everyone with honest intelligent and productive thinking accepts as a fact that is irrefutable, namely:

5. God exists in concept as the permanent self-existent creator of everything that is transient or that is not God Himself.

Nope.

There is no reason to imagine any permenant creator.. we know matter/energy cant be created or destroyed. It is matter/energy itself that is permenant..

You really thought you had proven the existence of God?

For anyone interested in the topic of the thread and my take on it, rather than Mr. Whiney's complaints..

It (matter/energy) has always existed and always will... its a law of physics that it can never be created or destroyed...

Your position is this - something that we know cannot be created or destroyed MUST have been created.. gotta be God.

You've wasted a lot of hours and words on this nonsense. Don't feel bad though, billions of ppl have.

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

So matter and energy spontaneously expanded, all of it, only once and by complete chance instantaneously.

originally posted by: Grenade
So matter and energy spontaneously expanded, all of it, only once and by complete chance instantaneously.

So the apple just spontaneously fell on Newton's head? The seeds just magically turn into plants? The sun just flies across the sky every day by itself?

Who claims it only happened once? Like I said before the Buddha explained it all thousands of years ago.. he described countless "world expansions and contractions."

Matter and energy do what they do according to their nature. They have always existed and they have always behaved according to their nature. There is no reason to imagine any sort of puppet master, creative god etc. We have found other explanations for things attributed to gods, over and over and over again.

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

Actually matter / anti matter annihilation suggests we should have equal amounts of both yet quite clearly matter is in more abundance.

In the inflationary universe model you need seed energy as I’m sure you well know considering your clear understanding of physics. Peddling bad science as fact.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

Actually matter / anti matter annihilation suggests we should have equal amounts of both yet quite clearly matter is in more abundance.

In the inflationary universe model you need seed energy as I’m sure you well know considering your clear understanding of physics. Peddling bad science as fact.

What in my post do you disagree with? Do you not think matter/energy has always existed? Do you not think they behave according to their nature (rather than according to some intelligent puppet master)? Do you disagree that we have discovered other explanations for things formerly attributed to gods, over and over and over as our understanding has increased?

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

Complete matter / anti matter annihilation is their nature yet matter is more abundant when they should be equally distributed.

The initial expansion from a point of infinite density can’t happen without a catalyst or seed energy.

It’s impossible to know anything before the so called Big Bang, to say energy and matter have always existed is true only if you mean by always being since this event and the creation of space time as we know it.

a reply to: Grenade

Incorrect. We know all the matter and energy in existence has always existed and always will. It cannot be created or destroyed. The big bang theory as well as the expansion-contraction-expansion etc. theory is perferctly compatible with this. It all existed in the super massive singularity.

When anti-matter and matter meet energy is released.. ie. matter changes form it isnt destroyed.

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

Explain the matter / anti matter discrepancy.

Again your Theory only works when you invoke hypothetical constructs such as dark matter and dark energy. You know those undetectable indirect forms of matter and energy that exist only on blackboards and in books, similar to another unprovable force.

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

You can’t know what existed before the initial universal expansion, nor how this energy and matter came to be. Observation, experiment and theory can only take you to the instant after the Big Bang. Until then time as we know it didn’t exist.

You’re putting a lot of faith into these theoretical concepts and claiming to know the nature of reality from before our reality even existed. Pure speculation!

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

It depends if you’re basing the argument on general relativity or quantum mechanics. One states matter is destroyed upon breaching the event horizon of a black hole, the other states the opposite. We don’t have a unified field theory to say for certain. For someone who professes to know so much your understanding of these concepts seems flawed.

originally posted by: Grenade


The initial expansion from a point of infinite density can’t happen without a catalyst or seed energy.

All the matter/energy that exists now existed in that small super massive singularity.. not only was there "seed energy" - there was all the matter/energy that has ever existed and ever will.

originally posted by: Grenade
It’s impossible to know anything before the so called Big Bang, to say energy and matter have always existed is true only if you mean by always being since this event and the creation of space time as we know it.

But I thought you said there had to have been "seed energy" present prior to the big bang? In the next breath you say it's impossible to know anything about anything prior to the big bang.

What made up the super massive singularity if not matter/energy?

Matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed.. they never have been and they never will be.

originally posted by: Grenade

Explain the matter / anti matter discrepancy.

What discrepancy? You claimed anti-matter destroys matter/energy. It doesn't.

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

The law of conservation of mass applies to a closed system. Particles are just energy being added to a quantum field, these energy fields are indeed unchanging however particles are created and destroyed constantly as they change between fields. Every interaction between particles we’ve observed has never created or destroyed a particle without creating or destroying an equal number of anti-matter particles. Matter is created and destroyed with this balance in effect all the time.

You clearly don’t understand particle physics and have taken a simplistic common misconception and applied it to universal constraints.

You should research baryogenesis. How did the unnatural asymmetric universe create more baryons than anti-baryons?

a reply to: Grenade

So... what was the super massive singularity made up of if not matter/energy?

You are the one speaking of things which you have misunderstood.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

So matter and energy spontaneously expanded, all of it, only once and by complete chance instantaneously.

Yes. There's no evidence to suggest it was engineered.

a reply to: Ringsofsaturn777

Matter and anti-matter mutual annihilation converts matter to energy. That’s the very definition of the destruction of matter. Either that or my education has been put to waste.

Unfortunately you blazed into this debate assuming I didn’t understand the scientific principles and that I was some kind of theologian.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Indeed, we can only know what came after the initial expansion, the catalyst and mechanisms driving this are a complete mystery.