Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

GOOD GAWD...does this thread ever die?????

It's freaking unbelievable!

Look, the answer to the OP is real simple...God exists if a person believes God exists. If another person doesn't believe God exists, then God doesn't exist FOR THEM. The believer may attribute consequences of the non-believer to not believing. And the non-believer may attribute those same consequences to chance.

Whether or not God exists, and in what form or concept, is only relevant to the believer. To the non-believer, life will take him wherever chance, or God, takes him, but God is irrelevant to him regardless.

How difficult is this to understand???

How many different forms of "God" are there in religions of the world? How many millions more believe in God, but not as a religion? Which one is the absolute right one? Only a fool would attempt to answer this question. ... Yet there are 3,500+ responses, and 183 pages of posts, here arguing for a single answer.

Bottom line; if you believe in a higher power, regardless of what you call him/her/it, regardless of what form it takes, what religion it is...that belief is your own!

NONE of these beliefs are "wrong" or "right"!!

Contrary to the views of modern society, and popular game shows...there is NO "Final Answer"!

So stop trying to make one!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

The thread can't die as long as the OP keeps bumping it and someone bites. there are eleven posts from the OP before yours and no doubt many more to come for that same reason.

a reply to: midicon

Ah, duly noted. I didn't look before I leaped. Sorry.

Good point. OP is just using this thread to evangelize.

Extra, extra, extra...

The Chemical Origins of Life: What Is Life? And Will We Find It on Other Planets?
TOPICS:American Chemical SocietyAstrobiology

By American Chemical Society June 16, 2021

My comment

scitechdaily.com...-619592
Marius Dejess aka Pachomius| June 18, 2021 at 3:24 pm |

Existence is of two kinds: the permanent self-existent kind and the transient kind, i.e. with a beginning and an ending.

Living things belong to the transient kind.

That implicates that living things come from the causation by the permanent self-existent being that man calls God.

And who or what brought forth existence?

There has always been and everywhere existence, that refers to the permanent self-existent kind, which is God, in concept as the permanent self-existent cause of man and the universe and everything transient, i.e. with a beginning and an ending.

Haha, and now you fools will say that I am into circular reasoning, that is all inside your stupid brain, go outside your brain and witness the presence of babies and roses in the neighborhood.

Dear Flyingclaydisk and midicon:

Have you ever taken the task to find out what is the concept of God with God-deniers and with God-knowers?

You know, with God-deniers they have nothing of any concept except strawmen.

Now, with God-knowers, they have the exact valid concept of God, namely, in essence:
“God is the permanent self-existent cause of man and the universe and everything transient, i.e. with a beginning and an ending.”

Except that with the God-knowers from religion they concentrate on how God can answer their needs, but with God-knowers from reason they concentrate on how God is from reason in concept:
“God is the permanent self-existent cause of man and the universe and everything transient, i.e. with a beginning and an ending.”

My challenge to you and all folks like you, tell me what is your concept of God?


Annex

Flyingclaydisk: How many different forms of "God" are there in religions of the world? How many millions more believe in God, but not as a religion? Which one is the absolute right one? Only a fool would attempt to answer this question. ... Yet there are 3,500+ responses, and 183 pages of posts, here arguing for a single answer.

From midicon: Good point. OP is just using this thread to evangelize.” (This dude is into fantasy.)

Haha, I am here again.


Prelude
Pachomijus posted on Jun, 11 2021 @ 07:08 AM
www.abovetopsecret.com...

What's happening, I don't see anyone from the camp of God from religion coming forth to talk with me, to topple my idea of God from reason, that it is all nonsense.

Okay, I will make an honest intelligent and productive confession, I also pray to God, the God of reason, I am only human, I have hope and fear, and still I maintain that with praying to the God from reason I am acting rationally.

At present I pray to God to save me from getting infected with the Covid-19 virus, and on the other hand I would rather prefer the ivermectin treatment than vaccines.

Why? Because ivermectin seems to be the most reasonable, even though establishment medicine does not favor it at all.



Oxford University tests anti-parasitic drug ivermectin for COVID-19 treatment
Ivermectin resulted in a reduction of virus replication in laboratory studies, the university said. It added a small pilot showed giving the drug early may reduce viral overload and the duration of symptoms in some patients with mild COVID-19
BusinessToday.In | June 23, 2021 | Updated 17:03 IST

www.businesstoday.in...


The University of Oxford on Wednesday said it was testing anti-parasitic drug ivermectin as a possible treatment for COVID-19, as part of a British government-backed study that aims to aid recoveries in non-hospital settings.
Ivermectin resulted in a reduction of virus replication in laboratory studies, the university said. It added a small pilot showed giving the drug early may reduce viral overload and the duration of symptoms in some patients who have mild COVID-19.

The British study, dubbed PRINCIPLE, in January found that antibiotics azithromycin and doxycycline were generally ineffective against early stage COVID-19.

The World Health Organisation, and the European and US regulators have recommended against the use of ivermectin in COVID-19 patients. However, it is being used to treat the illness in some countries, including India.
"By including ivermectin in a large-scale trial like Principle, we hope to generate robust evidence to determine how effective the treatment is against Covid-19, and whether there are benefits or harms associated with its use.", said Chris Butler, co-lead investigator of the study.

Those excluded from the trial are people with severe liver conditions, who are on blood-thinning medication warfarin, or are taking other treatments known to interact with ivermectin, the university mentioned.
Ivermectin is the seventh treatment to be investigated in the trial, and is currently being evaluated along with antiviral drug favipiravir, the university said.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
GOOD GAWD...does this thread ever die?????

It's freaking unbelievable!

[ . . . ]

My keen interest at present is what to do with God from reason, considering that men who go for their God from religion have not been making religion good for mankind at all, from all considerations they have succeeded to make religion serve their power grab and lucre lust to the woe of mankind.

The trouble is that we can't seem to be able to communicate with the God from reason.

But what about the 'Nature's God?

In Congress, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

a reply to: Pachomius

A very minor, insignificant deity led me to view this youtube video. Her name may just be Algorithm.

It gets pretty good at the 2:50 mark.

The God of Nature is as insensitive to human rights as is the God of Reason.

Heaven and Earth are not kind.
They regard all things as offerings.
The sage is not kind.
He regards people as offerings.

- Tao Te Ching, 5 -

I started reading David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion but didn't get very far before getting confused. I'll probably have to read some commentaries on it.

I assume that the gods that do listen to people are not as big and powerful as the Natural gods. But that is merely my assumption.

Is God real? Yeah, most likely.

Why would it even make sense to believe that all of the complexities of creation which are all coming together are somehow actually based on total radomness? Cmon...

Sure, God is mysterious as #. You also wonder about why if such a being existed there would be so much pain and wickedness in the world.... the answer is freedom comes with a price. Freewill is one of the greatest gift of all but it comes with responsability. What are we doing with it?
Total madness.

People blame God for allowing so much suffering but the truth is we are the one responsible about the state of this world. Right now we could all rise and get together and eradicate hatred and qar. Instead, we still continue to fight against each other over useless things like skin color or territory control. God is giving us all the chance to turn away from our wicked ways but he is not stupid. The clock is ticking and we will all but judged on the end.

So, get your sh-t together and truly start to honor your mission in life.

I started reading David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion but didn't get very far before getting confused. I'll probably have to read some commentaries on it. –pthena

So, get your sh-t together and truly start to honor your mission in life. –StOrD

Dear pthena, I challenge you to do your very own thinking that is honest intelligent and productive, guided by facts, truths, reason, and the best ideas of mankind from since the dawn of rational consciousness with man – on the theme definition of God.

Dear StOrD, I challenge you to think on what is your and my mission in life, with observing what is the history of life with all non-human lives.

a reply to: Pachomius

Okay. Done.
See Dude! Those are Just Things!

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Pachomius

Okay. Done.
See Dude! Those are Just Things!

Ny point is that I want to see whether you can think for yourself at all, but it seems and forgive me, you can't or don't think for yourself.

Let me see now whether you will teach me something, like that there is always existence and it ain't ever going to become extinct.

Dear readers, I fear the man will run away.

That is how and why I am so frustrated with a lot of posters here in ATS forum.

And I had hoped to produce at least one post per day in this my thread on, Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Pachomius posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM

On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?

[Please everyone, bear with me, I still have to re-learn how to write in ATS forum, as I used to know some over two years ago.]
---------------------------------
edit on 24-6-2020 by Pachomius because: Mistake of sending a post that had still nothing on it - and I just pressed my enter key twice to bring up two empty lines.

Haha, that is really a satisfying post from my part for this morning, see if I get an incentive tomorrow to post something that is also satisfying to my sense of self-worth - haha, paging Neutron, Hey man, where are you with your God from religion?

a reply to: Pachomius

Ny point is that I want to see whether you can think for yourself at all, but it seems and forgive me, you can't or don't think for yourself.

Let me quote myself here:

So what are the gods actually?
They are those without whom I would not be alive and aware.
They include Earth, Sky, Sun, Ocean, Plants, Animals, Parents, and their Parents, and etcetera.
They are the necessary being, without whom I would not exist.

Some are ancient and very long lasting, like Earth. Some, not so much, like the cheese I ate yesterday.

As far as I know, no one but me writes things like that. That should be sufficient evidence for original thought.

Let me see now whether you will teach me something, like that there is always existence and it ain't ever going to become extinct.

Sorry that I can't teach you anything like that.

Dear readers, I fear the man will run away.

Okay. It won't be the first time that I've lived up to the expectations of others. Of course, I could also come back again if I feel like it. That would be a disappointment.

Dear pthena, please forgive me for whatever you seem to feel bad about my post.

Now, tell me what do you think: has there always been existence and it ain't ever going to become extinct?

originally posted by: Pachomius
Dear pthena, please forgive me for whatever you seem to feel bad about my post.

Now, tell me what do you think: has there always been existence and it ain't ever going to become extinct?

There is existence and it is never ever going to become extinct, that is irrefutable.

So, what is the implication of that?

Simple, that in existence there is the permanent one and there is the transient one, we humans and the material universe belong to the transient kind of existence.

Transient existence comes from the permanent existence.

And the permanent existence is what I call God, in concept as the (from the standpoint of man of course - and there is no other standpoint except that from man: because man is the only one talking among fellowmen themselves scil. ourselves), here it is my concept of God as follows:

"God is the permanent self-existent cause of man and the universe and everything transient, i.e. with a beginning and an ending."

Now, at this point there are posters in ATS forum here as also everywhere who will bring up the idea that I am into circular reasoning, all because it is all inside their brain, they should go out of their brain to see the babies and roses in their neighborhood, that will enable them to divest themselves of their foolishness with circular reasoning, by which they argue foolishly to the non-existence of God.

Anyway, dear everyone here, let us await with bated breath for the proponents of circular reasoning fallacy to appear here in this thread, and we will work together as to concur on what is circular reasoning and why it is for them a fallacy, of course all inside their foolish brain.

But let me tell you all, these deniers of God existing, they are talking about the God from religion, not the God from reason.

originally posted by: Pachomius

originally posted by: Pachomius
Dear pthena, please forgive me for whatever you seem to feel bad about my post.

Now, tell me what do you think: has there always been existence and it ain't ever going to become extinct?

[ . . . . ]

But let me tell you all, these deniers of God existing, they are talking about the God from religion, not the God from reason.

Dear readers, I just want to tell you that the word fantasy, it applies quite demonstrably to what I call God from religion.

And God from reason is what I call a fact and a truth, and now here again is my definition of what is God (from reason):

"God is the permanent self-existent cause of man and the universe and everything transient, i.e. with a beginning and an ending."

Have a good day.

I am really very happy intellectually that I have come to the honest intelligent productive finding that there is existence all the time and everywhere, and it is never ever going to occur that existence will become extinct.

So all science and all mathematics and all philosophy etc. etc. etc. must bear with this fact and truth in the acquisition of knowledge from the part of man.

There is never and ever going to be a status of non-existence from which existence arises, because even in thinking at all: when we start with non-existence, then we should not proceed any further at all because we also cease to exist: so why proceed further with even just thinking?

That is why I can't accept that there are scientists who start with non-existence from which existence comes about and from.

Anyway, if there are scientists, mathematicians, philosophers and all any kinds of intellectuals, please come forward, and from honest intelligent productive thinking with your brain, expound on how from non-existence existence can and does and has come about and from.

a reply to: Pachomius

...the issue God exists or not.

Bad grammar aside, the existence of the Creator of the Universe is not an 'issue'.

It being an 'issue' is just an erroneus thought of the ignorant mind. Once you know reality, there's no longer any 'issue'.

It's normal to sometimes doubt the existence of the Omnipotent One, but that doubt is useless and a waste of time in the end.

I get it that it's hard to sometimes keep faith when life is punching you in the face (at least figuratively), but in the end, it's doing so because of your own lifeplan, your own karma, your own responsibility - the Universe is only doing what you wanted it to do. Endure it, and you will be rewarded with the most wonderful freedom.