Atlanta Police Chief resigns after Black Man shot

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Yes, I'm aware of the way you like to use the heightened rates of arrest and conviction for Blacks.

So I put the question to you again: do you think that's because Blacks are targetted for arrest and railroaded into convictions?

Or is it because for some reason Black people are just more criminal?

I think it's because most black males are born without a father in the family and that for boys especially, this is very damaging to not have a father figure. Compound that by it now being generational with very, very few strong male role models in the African-American community that aren't sports figures, rappers, or local gang members in most of the worst neighborhoods where crime is the worst and the homicide rates the highest.

The get to school mostly without having the basic social skills needed to learn, and the schools they have are usually crappy thanks to budget mismanagement (some of them spend more per pupil than solid private schools in the same area will) and corruption, so where they might otherwise have gotten somewhat caught up, they don't. Then they're surrounded in class by more like them coming from the same circumstances which makes it even tougher to learn anything because even if the teacher could teach, she's busy trying to enforce some order on the class.

So assuming they even get through school without quitting out to banging or running afoul of the criminal justice system, they are most likely going to be drastically underprepared for any kind of college. And the colleges want them for diversity reasons. They get in and have a sky high fail rate.

You could argue it all as racism ... but black women from the same backgrounds don't have nearly the same fail rate.

You're looking at an education that is currently geared for female success to produce female success. It's hostile to males no matter your racial background: white, black, or purple with green spots because the classrooms and learning structures have been produced to encourage more female graduates.

Understand, these are entirely bright and capable children. I know I worked with them for several years in the inner city, but it was gut wrenching. At every level, they are set up to fail. Their family life fails them. Their schools fail them. The whole system fails them, but it all starts with the family or lack of it.

That's actually an interesting suggestion. Single parent families are more prevalent anong Blacks, Native Americans, Latinos and Children of Parents of Mixed Race Source

So if a single parent family (we'll assume they're all fatherless for this purpose) produces greater crime, wouldn't we expect to see simliar crime rates among those other racial groups as well?

If not, why not?

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Edumakated

No, it's not clear that one has a bigger problem ... not by the statistics.

And that's your argument, right? We should be lead by what the numbers say?

The numbers say that the rate of race-specific crime between Whites and Blacks are very similar.

I'm sure you'll adjust your feelings according to the facts, right?

If you think that then you are not mathematically inclined enough to have this discussion.

Again.... read it slow.

If you have two groups of people, white people and black people.

If white people homicides are 10 and 9 out of 10 of those are committed by whites then 90% white on white crime.

if black people homicides are 1000 and 900 out of 1000 of those are committed by blacks then 90% black on black crime.

Yes, you can argue both groups have similar homicide numbers in terms of victim / murderer being in same group. However, the statistic that is more important is rate at which homicides are occurring. 1000 is greater than 10. It is clear one group has a bigger problem than the other.

a reply to: carewemust

Nothing here to see. Move along.

🍺👍

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Because in the context of this discussion, we're talking about causes of death caused by other people, specifically either law enforcement of non-black people or both in one person.

The other context is why black people run into law enforcement so much, and that staggeringly high homicide rate gives you a clue. If you have high rates of criminal activity, then you end up running into lots of cops which increases your chances for negative police interaction.

So while police reform is important, it's only one part of the puzzle. We also need to look at why young black men kill other young black men so often.

As far as unintended accidents are concerned, everyone suffers from those. Are those numbers out of line from other demographics? The black homicide rate is, especially when compared to the share of population. It's one quota blacks don't have any trouble filling, and that's a bad thing.

And you can ask the same with suicide. Is it out of line with other demographics?

So we can get back to why young black men are so likely to kill each other, and start to answer that one, and you've likely done as much to reduce issues with the cops as any police reform. Both together? And you might take the black community to a place where they can walk with whites on attitudes toward police in time.

The reason the questions you are asking are never addressed is because it highlights the failings of the black community culturally. Once you go down that rabbithole you start seeing the 75% out of wedlock birth rates, etc.... the community doesn't want to self-reflect and rather blame racism.

So, you're making a semantic argument that Blacks are innately more crimnal because of cultural failings of the community? Which ones? Single parent families? Is that the great failing of the Black community in your opinion then?

a reply to: bigyin

It's not like he merely pulled over for a nap. He was in a drive-thru line and passed out. Those in the line behind him couldn't pull forward, so he was disrupting everything.

Had he simply pulled off somewhere and slept, the odds are depending on where, he would have been left alone.

a reply to: Edumakated

I don't have to read it slow to see that you're lying.

I gave the rates, and I gave the source.

ETA:

White 3499, Race of Offender, White 2854, Black 533
Black 2870, Race of Offender White 243, Black 2570

White on White Murder Rate 81.6%
Black on Black Murder Rate 89.5%

Those are the ACTUAL NUMBERS for 2016. So stop insulting our intelligence with your glaring attempts to decieve.

Murder rates are higher within racial groups. The rates are similar for white-on-white and black-on-black crime. That's what the numbers say ... I gave you the NUMBERS not your imaginary numbers.

So you can't use "Black on Black crime" as some exception to the rule. Unless of course, there's something innately wrong with Black people in your opinion?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: bigyin

It's not like he merely pulled over for a nap. He was in a drive-thru line and passed out. Those in the line behind him couldn't pull forward, so he was disrupting everything.

Had he simply pulled off somewhere and slept, the odds are depending on where, he would have been left alone.

How are you calculating those odds? I'd be glad to see.

You can't blame this outcome on where he fell asleep; that's ... ridiculous.

He's more dangerous becasue he wanted a Frosty before bed?

Jesus Christ.

a reply to: Gryphon66

He came to police attention because he disrupted things. Then when he interacted with cops, things escalated because he decided he didn't want to be arrested.

No one but Rayshard knows why he decided it was better to attack the cop and steal his weapon and then run and turn and try to shoot him with it.

But that's what really got him killed.

a reply to: Gryphon66

And, btw, this is why no one can have a productive discussion with you on this topic.

You're too busy insinuating that everyone who says that some of responsibility for this might lie in the roots of African-American culture as much as it does with the current state of policing is racist (even blacks arguing that with you) to even consider what's being said.

To talk about faults all around is not letting anyone off the hook.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: ketsuko

Yes, I'm aware of the way you like to use the heightened rates of arrest and conviction for Blacks.

So I put the question to you again: do you think that's because Blacks are targetted for arrest and railroaded into convictions?

Or is it because for some reason Black people are just more criminal?

I think it's because most black males are born without a father in the family and that for boys especially, this is very damaging to not have a father figure. Compound that by it now being generational with very, very few strong male role models in the African-American community that aren't sports figures, rappers, or local gang members in most of the worst neighborhoods where crime is the worst and the homicide rates the highest.

The get to school mostly without having the basic social skills needed to learn, and the schools they have are usually crappy thanks to budget mismanagement (some of them spend more per pupil than solid private schools in the same area will) and corruption, so where they might otherwise have gotten somewhat caught up, they don't. Then they're surrounded in class by more like them coming from the same circumstances which makes it even tougher to learn anything because even if the teacher could teach, she's busy trying to enforce some order on the class.

So assuming they even get through school without quitting out to banging or running afoul of the criminal justice system, they are most likely going to be drastically underprepared for any kind of college. And the colleges want them for diversity reasons. They get in and have a sky high fail rate.

You could argue it all as racism ... but black women from the same backgrounds don't have nearly the same fail rate.

You're looking at an education that is currently geared for female success to produce female success. It's hostile to males no matter your racial background: white, black, or purple with green spots because the classrooms and learning structures have been produced to encourage more female graduates.

Understand, these are entirely bright and capable children. I know I worked with them for several years in the inner city, but it was gut wrenching. At every level, they are set up to fail. Their family life fails them. Their schools fail them. The whole system fails them, but it all starts with the family or lack of it.

That's actually an interesting suggestion. Single parent families are more prevalent anong Blacks, Native Americans, Latinos and Children of Parents of Mixed Race Source

So if a single parent family (we'll assume they're all fatherless for this purpose) produces greater crime, wouldn't we expect to see simliar crime rates among those other racial groups as well?

If not, why not?

You actually do see similar levels of dysfunction in other races when it comes to single parent households. The difference is that the single parent households are not the norm within those communities. This has been studied quite heavily. I believe the white rate of unwed births is around 30%, Asians like 10%, Hispanics 50%, and blacks 73%.

What doesn't replicate as much is the homicide rate which I think is more cultural. Most of the black murders are gang / street related. Gangs and street life aren't as ingrained in those other communities.

Here in Chicago, around 80% of the murders are black. 15% hispanic. The rest are white / unknown.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

He came to police attention because he disrupted things. Then when he interacted with cops, things escalated because he decided he didn't want to be arrested.

No one but Rayshard knows why he decided it was better to attack the cop and steal his weapon and then run and turn and try to shoot him with it.

But that's what really got him killed.

What got Mr. Brooks killed was two shots in the back applied by Officer Rolfe.

We will see how that fact is adjudicated.

a reply to: face23785

Was the "widow" at the press conference

Yes, and she was in tears so badly she had to leave. I see no purpose in bringing up the other part of your question in regard to the press conference except to create more pain for those already suffering.

Have a modicum of respect for those in mourning.

TheRedneck

Question: in the homicide rates you guys are throwing around, what is the make up % wise of White, black, Latinos,...etc in the US?

My reason for asking is Say that if only 13% of the total population is black and they have a number of homicides that is close to or equal to that of the 87% of the population, then there is a huge problem in that 13% of the community especially if its black on black homicide.

a reply to: Edumakated

May we share your sources for those statistics?

Also, what do you make of the fact that among Whites and HIspanics the rates of birth to unmarried women have been solidly increasing for years, and yet, we don't see a concomitant increase in crime rates for those groups? Source

a reply to: Gryphon66

Let me help you since it is clear you didn't take stats in school. Go look up the population of blacks and the population of whites.

No one is disputing that most murders occur within racial groups. Jeez.

What is being pointed out is the FREQUENCY. The number of murders that occur within those groups. When you factor in that blacks are 13% of the population have a similar number of murders as the 60% of the population (non-hispanic whites) it is clear there is a problem.

You are not this daft. Stop trolling.

originally posted by: wdkirk
Question: in the homicide rates you guys are throwing around, what is the make up % wise of White, black, Latinos,...etc in the US?

My reason for asking is Say that if only 13% of the total population is black and they have a number of homicides that is close to or equal to that of the 87% of the population, then there is a huge problem in that 13% of the community especially if its black on black homicide.

-

Wow, we finally have a student in the class that did their homework. Can you tutor, Gryphon?

originally posted by: wdkirk
Question: in the homicide rates you guys are throwing around, what is the make up % wise of White, black, Latinos,...etc in the US?

My reason for asking is Say that if only 13% of the total population is black and they have a number of homicides that is close to or equal to that of the 87% of the population, then there is a huge problem in that 13% of the community especially if its black on black homicide.

Whites are not 87% of the population.

The rate based on the numbers I provided from the FBI were Black on Black 89% and White on White 81%. The numbers are simliar for other racial groups.

People murder most often in their own racial group.

If you want to do the "13% of the population does 60% of the crime" that's a different argument (the flaw is that number of arrests and convictions does not equal who is doing the crime.)

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: wdkirk
Question: in the homicide rates you guys are throwing around, what is the make up % wise of White, black, Latinos,...etc in the US?

My reason for asking is Say that if only 13% of the total population is black and they have a number of homicides that is close to or equal to that of the 87% of the population, then there is a huge problem in that 13% of the community especially if its black on black homicide.

-

Wow, we finally have a student in the class that did their homework. Can you tutor, Gryphon?

Pointless and meaningnless ad hom.

Why don't you tutor me? Here are the numbers from the FBI again:

White 3499, Race of Offender, White 2854, Black 533
Black 2870, Race of Offender White 243, Black 2570

White on White Murder Rate 81.6%
Black on Black Murder Rate 89.5%

So ... show us how you'd calculate the rates differently. Please, "tutor" me.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Edumakated

May we share your sources for those statistics?

Also, what do you make of the fact that among Whites and HIspanics the rates of birth to unmarried women have been solidly increasing for years, and yet, we don't see a concomitant increase in crime rates for those groups? Source

The kids born to white and hispanic single mothers exhibit similar levels of dysfunction - poor school performance, higher rates of incarceration, etc.

However, the rate of homicide isn't as high because I think there is something cultural that explains the high murder rate. As I mentioned, gangs are prevalent in many urban areas and the lifestyle is promoted /accepted culturally.

Charles Murray wrote a book called Coming Apart where he is specifically addressing the impact on white America.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Edumakated

May we share your sources for those statistics?

Also, what do you make of the fact that among Whites and HIspanics the rates of birth to unmarried women have been solidly increasing for years, and yet, we don't see a concomitant increase in crime rates for those groups? Source

The kids born to white and hispanic single mothers exhibit similar levels of dysfunction - poor school performance, higher rates of incarceration, etc.

However, the rate of homicide isn't as high because I think there is something cultural that explains the high murder rate. As I mentioned, gangs are prevalent in many urban areas and the lifestyle is promoted /accepted culturally.

Charles Murray wrote a book called Coming Apart where he is specifically addressing the impact on white America.

I'd be glad to review actual statistics if you have any.

Cultural standards are one of a constellation of factors in all behaviors of course.

You spoke specifically of the FAILINGS of the Black community though ... would you say more about those specific FAILINGS?