Screw Income Equality

originally posted by: TonyS
Well, to clarify, I would obviously be talking about income. But what I am talking about is economic activity. Tax laws should be structured to encourage excess income and cash on hand be reinvested into the economy to generate more economic activity, create more jobs and to increase incomes for workers so they can spend and generate more economic activity. There is much more to tax policy than simply raising revenues to the corrupt government entities and politicians.

I agree 1000%!!!

So, reduce to ZERO all taxes on all income from all activities that reinvest said 'excess income and cash on hand'.

Starting a new business? Congratulations! Your tax rate is ZERO for the first 10 years!

I love it!!!

a reply to: JAGStorm

Did the white servers work less or did you simply perceive it as such? Granted I'm sure some did, but I'll also bet that not every one of your conspecifics was equally industrious too. Even if all worked just as hard, some were likely better at it and brought in more tip money.

This is the problem with social welfare in general, and it has been seen in countries as the population becomes less homogenous. People do not trust outsiders to be as industrious. The Scandanavian welfare states are discovering this. They used to work out because everyone worked hard expecting the system to be there as they needed it, so they worked hard to put in, but as society become less and less ethnically homogenous, the system breaks down because of lack of trust.

People perceive the outsiders as being less industrious and willing to leach off the system so they stop working as hard to put in. It all breaks down. This is why it's such a mess in the US and will continue to be as long as we preach diversity instead of assimilation.

originally posted by: RalagaNarHallas
a reply to: Edumakated

you may be more able to answer this then me as economics aren't my forte what are the major differences between what china has done for example vs what america did post ww2 (when our middle class prospered)

and how does their variant of capitalism compare to ours?

The US prospered after WWII primarily because we were the only industrialized country that wasn't bombed to smithereens. All the soldiers returning home, baby boomers, and pent up consumer demand caused middle class to boom.

It wasn't until the late 70s and 80s that other markets started really opening up and then the big push for globalization.

China has benefited from that globalization because of their cheap labor and lower standards of living making it the manufacturing center of the universe now. However, they are reaping the benefits of capitalism with the growing middle class. With that said, many of China's largest corporations are nothing more than state run companies so not really the same as the US.

a reply to: Edumakated

China *is* the corporation. That's how it runs itself in the market.

a reply to: ketsuko

Did the white servers work less or did you simply perceive it as such? Granted I'm sure some did, but I'll also bet that not every one of your conspecifics was equally industrious too. Even if all worked just as hard, some were likely better at it and brought in more tip money.

A little of both. I think it is more a cultural thing. Saving face. The thought of letting down co-workers is more severe for Asians, the "shame" factor is not the same with white folks.

a reply to: JAGStorm

That you know of. For some of us it still is even if we don't call it the same thing as saving face.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: JAGStorm

That you know of. For some of us it still is even if we don't call it the same thing as saving face.

I've lived in a mix family, and have seen both side of the fence. I'd can say without a shadow of a doubt that Asian have a deeper tie to saving face than Caucasians. It does not mean that some Caucasians don't have it. I also don't see it as a good/bad thing.

It is just different. Saving face/working in a group, you can achieve things quickly.
Being independent, only caring about yourself, you can get personal gratification and personal reward.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Whether or not I put my all in for the group depends on how much I trust the rest of the group to do the same and what the consequences of failure are.

The best group efforts I've been a part of are team competitions where everyone wanted to be there and everyone wanted the same outcome so everyone worked equally hard for it.

Contrast that with school projects where most of your group mates were assigned and didn't care one way or the other, so you busted your tail to do most of the work yourself or you got substandard results.

Every team does have a weak link, but if they're pulling their weight, that's all you can ask of them and that's what matters. Still need to trust them to be all in on it though.

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: rickymouse
I owned a construction company. As workers became more experienced I boosted their wages. Some new guy who is a nice guy and trainable might take a while before you started making money off of him/her until they learned how to do things correctly. I had many times we had to redo things that a new guy worked on. And then you hire someone who says they know how to do something and they screw it up. So raising a person's wage when they gain experience on your crew is essential. If you don't, they go to work for someone that will pay more.

I trained a lot of people to work in my life.

Another thing is a guy working in a nice warm office should not get as much as people working out in the hot sun, the freezing cold, and in the rain and snow. Office workers should not get paid as much as a guy working on a roof or high building or lifting heavy things where risk is higher. The society we are in has pay not relative to work preformed. Work that is hard on the body should pay more. Everyone would want to work at McDs if the pay was equal, there would not be any construction workers.

Couldn't disagree more with your last paragraph.

I work in an office.. Tell me what someone who just works outside in weather like you listed does to make more than I what I have earned the right to make in my career?

Oh wait, is this one of those "manual labor" is more noble then other types of work BS?

Construction workers used to make more than people working in an office or working in a store. But it seems like in the last fifteen years the tide has turned and people doing jobs that are not really needed for survival of our people are making more than those who actually make our society more secure. I know someone selling phone packages that make more than a grocery store manager. I know people who are working for AT&T selling cell phone packages who make more than the people repairing the phone lines for the same company. Those who can trick people into buying things they do not really need make more than those who actually provide necessary services for society.

Great we can just agree to disagree then.

My whole career has been an "office job" same with all my friends. Their is 0 that the type of person you are talking about has done to deserve more than I do in my chosen field.

Sorry I just don't believe in this thought that if you work with your hands you are better or somehow more noble. You want to, great but the good thing is in the real world, that thought process has little to no impact on anything.

Again agree to disagree because nothing you say is changing my mind and nothing as say is changing yours.

Go work in a ditch removing sewer lines and installing new sewer lines. My Son-in-law did that for three years working for a construction company. Do it for five days, the smell on you does not always wash off, there are many chemicals flushed down toilets or used in our households. It may be a little better than it used to be but there is no way to make it good. My daughter took his clothes to the laundromat to clean them, that way everyone who uses the laundromat has the ability to cherish the smell on their clothes.

I lost lots of clothes to tar from working on roofs. I lost other clothes to grease and grime from working on cars and equipment. Pretreating the wash might get the grease off the clothes but it is left in the washer. Office jobs are not that hard on your body like many other jobs are. Many jobs involve using all sorts of chemicals to clean off stuff. Try painting cars, I did some of that with a friend. He just got out of the ER getting metal shavings removed from his eyes, a magnet wouldn't work, stainless steel brushes on a die grinder are not magnetic.

Go to your office job, I have done office work too. I thought office work was such a treat compared to most of the jobs others do. The only problem with office jobs is blood clots from sitting too long in one place, but no different than standing at a job at Kohler putting sand casts into the molds to make sinks. Which I have done. If you can move, no problem, my daughter has a couple of bicycle crank things under a few of her desks, she had a blood clot from sitting at a desk for twelve hours. She owns the company, she does not complain when her workers get up and stretch. If you are working in an office, then drink lots of water, you have to walk to go to the bathroom every hour, it helps to lower risk.

I have worked in many professions during my life, most just long enough to learn what knowledge the jobs had to offer. I like moving around when working, or I get stiff.

You are not the only one who worked in an office, I had about two years doing that, it sucked but was not physically hard. Of course, you want others to believe that your job is hard. When working building houses in the hot sun, you just want to go home and lay down after ten hours. Working on construction is not usually like people see on TV where people are standing around leaning on a shove., only county and municipality workers get to do that. I hated the conflict with the county job I worked at when I was young, if you actually did anything in the day, the other workers blackballed you.

Great but I have yet to read in anything you have posted that would justify why someone working outside should get paid more then I do for my job?

As it happens in the real world if someone in my field does the work better then I do then they deserve to get paid more and if someone does it to a lesser level then I do then they should get paid less.

Sorry, I don't buy into the "but I'm blue collar so I work harder then you " line of thinking.
Getting grease on your hands doesn't make you any harder , better or more diligent of worker , it just means that is the career path you chose.

a reply to: opethPA

To be fair, it's not a matter of what's intellectually harder to smash two brain cells together over, but the fact that hard physical labor tends to wreck the body MUCH faster than pounding paper or a keyboard at a desk does, and thus they're out of the workforce sooner and with bigger health issues than just a wide load hind end from takeout lunches in the cubicle/office.

My husband's the desk jockey today, but when we met, he was in a completely different industry that had enormous physical demands in a very hot and humid climate, and agrees -- strenuous physical jobs deserve more pay than he gets now sitting on his ass in the AC, not the other way around. The BODY pays for the gap there, without enough compensation to make up for the punishing work and shortened work years.

Consider this:

A college student is sitting the food court cramming for a physics test he did not study for. He pulled a C average in highschool, but 1530 out of 1600 SAT (including perfect math.)

He knows he'll pass the test anyway, despite his sloth. He is just that naturally gifted.


A fellow walks up to him and starts a conversation. This person is a mentally handicapped food court worker who cleans the place for a living. He explains that a friend of his has been bugging him to learn to read, but he's tried and he just can't get it.

No matter how hard he works or what he does, this is as high as he will likely ever go in life.

The college student listens to him, and exchanges friendly comments. (He might as well, it's not like he needs to be concentrating on his cramming. He'll pass the test regardless.)



The thing of it is, that story really happened.



So I ask: is there any way to make the world equal? I don't think there is.

But I think we should do our best to make sure that the bottom tier isn't a bad place to be. The top should still be a better place (or else nobody would work hard to get there.) But the bottom doesn't have to be hell on Earth.

a reply to: opethPA

Is what you do necessary for the welfare and survival of the people in society? Do you provide a necessary service for society, one that is really needed by the people. Even a person tossing burgers at McDs is providing a necessary service. A person who is working selling phone service packages or selling health insurance is not providing a necessary service, those services could be replaced by technology. Are people getting paid to research or design things that we really do not need necessary, think about how much money that is. I read lots of research, sometimes there will be twenty different researches that have been done on the same thing, nobody is even reading the results of much of the research that has been done.

There are a lot of people working in healthcare doing tests that are not needed, doctors order tests to keep these people in paychecks. I see a lot of that here. Now if I need a roof on my house, I will pay to have it done, I need it. If I do not need it I would not be putting it on. My daughters boy had a MRI with die done and it was ten grand, the insurance paid seven and she had to pay three, if BCBS was the insurance company they would have approved it at probably five grand and her thirty percent would only have been fifteen hundred instead of the three grand because the way their insurance company approved it. Oops, off topic, those office people who overcharged for the inflated service kind of pissed me off. If they said anything they would be fired so I guess looking the other way is necessary.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

College student is still a rat in the race. Having to performing for the masters. Handicap dude is happy he’s not the college kid stuck in race.

College kid should get out of there and open up a tutoring class for mentally handicapped people. He has the patience and compassion to have a conversation with the handicapped guy.

Help others with the gifts you have been given. Find the need and use your skills to help others not just yourself.

College kid could do both at the same time and get a degree that he now will use to help create a business of this newly discovered passion.

We are told in the system what should makes us happy, so we never pay attention to opportunities that don’t match what were told.

The joy of helping someone improve their skill could be better than the joy one gets from 100 likes on an IG post of you in your new Tesla.

I don’t know, there is no perfect path, we just need to more objective and honest with ourselves. Not being afraid to take a path that’s not mainstream or borrow other people’s life goals because you want their life.


Edit - More advice:
Ask yourself, why do I want what I want?
How can I start doing the things I’m good at and passionate about now?
If You need more education, then make plans and goals that includes the people that will be affected by your acquired skills. Don't just include what you will get out of it, but how others will benefit from your expertise and experience.

Poor is what exactly? In China poverty was 1 dollar per day, now the people making 3 dollars a day are no longer poor - for an entire family BTW.

A family of 4 living in California can make 150 per day and still be considered poor.

There is 47,000,000 millionaires now in the world and that number keeps going up -and yet a women at the store in front of me today was in her gym gear with a new iphone 11 max, new iwatch and a lexus suv cashing food stamps.

People making 30K a year in the US are the in the top 1% of earners in the world - who can't make 30K these days if they even try a little? Bums can make that in a couple months pan handling in the larger cities. You can make 30K a year working 20 hours a week at a starbucks with tips.

a reply to: circuitsports

People making 30K a year in the US are the in the top 1% of earners in the world

But there is that cost of living thing.

I am a Libertarian but still, a 7 figure salary?

I'm not saying manual labor isn't hard or doesn't take a toll on the body just like mental labor takes its toll in its own way.

What I'm saying is I still have read why someone doing manual labor deserves to make more then me by default.

The answer is they don't because ideally people should be rewarded for the level they work at.

Again to me manual labor is no more or less noble or important then any other type of work.

a reply to: opethPA

People go into manual labor often because they don't have the smarts for an office job or the finances for college.

People go into office jobs and pay to go to college for them because they don't want to kill themselves doing manual labor jobs.

At some point we lost that being in an office WAS the primary reason for an office job and not better pay.

The manual labor jobs are for those willing to sacrifice their bodies because they don't have what it takes mentally to become an office worker, and office jobs are for those blessed enough to have what it takes to avoid manual labor hell and can take advantage of their mind to avoid it.

People in office jobs pretending they deserve more pay because they were blessed enough to escape manual hell just want it all.

People seek office jobs because they don't want to die young killing themselves in manual labor jobs, stop pretending otherwise and just pay the damn manual laborers for their damn sacrifice.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: opethPA

People go into manual labor often because they don't have the smarts for an office job or the finances for college.

People go into office jobs and pay to go to college for them because they don't want to kill themselves doing manual labor jobs.

At some point we lost that being in an office WAS the primary reason for an office job and not better pay.

The manual labor jobs are for those willing to sacrifice their bodies because they don't have what it takes mentally to become an office worker, and office jobs are for those blessed enough to have what it takes to avoid manual labor hell and can take advantage of their mind to avoid it.

People in office jobs pretending they deserve more pay because they were blessed enough to escape manual hell just want it all.

People seek office jobs because they don't want to die young killing themselves in manual labor jobs, stop pretending otherwise and just pay the damn manual laborers for their damn sacrifice.

Great but none of that is my argument.

Working manual labor doesn't automatically mean you should get paid more. In my world the people that should get paid more then me are those that can do my job better then I can while those that do my job to a lesser level should get paid less.

I am sure there are many manual jobs I would suck at because im not interested in them just like I am sure many people that choose to work with their hands would not succeed at what I do because it is not interesting to them.

One is no more honorable, noble, rewarding , whatever adjective you want to use then the other..Just different.

As for the sacrifice BS...tell that to my family , friends , anyone that mattered to me each time I sacrificed something to them because work needed me.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: opethPA

People go into manual labor often because they don't have the smarts for an office job or the finances for college.

People go into office jobs and pay to go to college for them because they don't want to kill themselves doing manual labor jobs.

At some point we lost that being in an office WAS the primary reason for an office job and not better pay.

The manual labor jobs are for those willing to sacrifice their bodies because they don't have what it takes mentally to become an office worker, and office jobs are for those blessed enough to have what it takes to avoid manual labor hell and can take advantage of their mind to avoid it.

People in office jobs pretending they deserve more pay because they were blessed enough to escape manual hell just want it all.

People seek office jobs because they don't want to die young killing themselves in manual labor jobs, stop pretending otherwise and just pay the damn manual laborers for their damn sacrifice.

Working outside in many ways may actually be healthier. I can't tell you the number of people who get sick from sitting sedentary for 12 hours a day staring at a computer.

High paying office jobs are not cushy. You can have extreme stress and very long hours. People love to beat up on Wall Street. Wall Street is notorious for the long hours. The lowest level (analyst) for recent college grads pays about $125k -$150k first year after bonus. However, the hours are brutal. 100 hour work weeks are not uncommon.

Ninety - Nine percent of people don't have the mental or physical stamina to do the jobs.

A couple of years ago, a Wall Street intern worked himself to DEATH. He worked 3 days straight and it triggered epilepsy.

BofA Intern Dies

A 21-year-old intern who worked grueling hours at Bank of America's London office died just a week before his internship was to conclude...

One former investment banker confirmed that interns could regularly work 14 hour days.

The banker, who wished to remain anonymous, told The Independent: "Interns can regularly clock up to 100 or even 110 hours a week, but people are fully aware that banking is hard work and the company constantly reminds you to manage upwards in order to not overheat. This is the first time I've heard of something like this happening and banking is a very close culture."

The point is that simply being in an office is not any better or worse. Just different. There are times I wish I could do manual labor. At least when I am done with work, I am really done with work. Most of my office jobs require being in constant contact after hours. working weekends. Working late hours.

a reply to: opethPA

Manual labors make that same sacrifice plus suffer more health problems and typical get worse health insurance.

It used to be there were two paths to success one physical and one mental, now the physical stuff has been turned into brainless monkey work not worth compensation and only the mental work deserves compensation. It's bull# and why people are getting pissed.

Not everyone is a genius so they have to sacrifice their body instead. Right now there's a dedicated effort to gate those who take the physical path often because they have no choice off from success and telling them that it's their fault because you're all gatekeeping success to only the office community.

Office worker get paid better, more often live to enjoy their retirement, and more likely have the money to retire on.

Manual laborers get paid less, rarely live to enjory their retirement, and more than likely don't have enough to retire on when they do make it, especially with their more likely heavier medical bills.