Screw Income Equality

If you had a town of a thousand people, and you gave them all the same resources.
Every single working aged person got the same amount. It still would not be enough.
The amount doesn't matter, someone would always be screaming unfair!

Every single discussion on universal income, on raising the minimum wage, on income equality fails to mention one major aspect.

Some people will not be successful no matter how much money or resources you give them.
This is the same reason some lottery winners go bankrupt very quickly after winning what seems like a life changing amount.

Secondly, people will always have jealousy.
A little story. During school in shop class we were given wood and a few accessories. I happen to love woodworking. I think being a girl I had a different unique style. I'm going to brag a little here. My finished project looked amazing, really amazing, like something an adult would do while the rest looked like children's work. The teacher was beaming with pride and I got an A+..
Well someone stole my project. Even though we were all given the same tools and supplies. What they didn't know is that I was so obsessed with woodworking I asked my teacher if I could stay after school every day to work on it.

The same thing would happen with universal income, with income equality, with raising min wage. It will never be enough.

How do I think we could fix the problem? It's actually the exact opposite. What do we think of the greatest generation? The people that lived through the depression. We need to take away giving giving giving, and bring back making, working, learning. One of the most famous quotes from the depression was "Use it Up, Wear It Out, Make it Do or Do Without!" You know how a lot of wealthy people got rich? They do without. This is something incomprehensible to many on the lower rungs.

If we let companies thrive or fail without government involvement it would work a lot better. If we severely punished companies that hired illegals it would work a lot better. We need to encourage education of any kind. We often pit college training against vocational training. There is no competition. They are just different venues of learning. One is not lesser to the other.

Most importantly, we need to bring back personal responsibility. Yes, everyone has a sad story. I can't think of a single person that hasn't had tragedy, trials and difficulty in their life. We have to stop using that as an excuse.

a reply to: JAGStorm

My wife see's people with $100k incomes and $60-$100k in credit card debt all the time.

Lots of school teachers making $75k and paying overdraft fees on their checking accounts.

a reply to: JAGStorm

I think the big thing for me is that life isn't fair. There will always be some sort of inequality. In addition, there have always been mega rich since the beginning of time.

We all have different abilities and circumstances. All you can do is play the hand you are dealt to the best of your abilities.

No centralized government will every make everyone equal nor can they determine outcomes.

I've yet to hear a rational and coherent argument beyond simple jealousy as to why so many leftist hate rich people.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: JAGStorm

My wife see's people with $100k incomes and $60-$100k in credit card debt all the time.

Lots of school teachers making $75k and paying overdraft fees on their checking accounts.

People live for the moment. They don't plan or save. I work in finance and see it everyday too.

The thing that annoys me is that people who save and are responsible are often punished for their thrift.

For example, financial aid for college often looks at the net worth of the parents. The problem is that if you have been diligent and saved for retirement, you get penalized and your kids won't get as much aide. So if you have lived below your means and managed to save say $1 million for retirement, your kids may have trouble getting aide wherea if you splurged on BMWs and other junk and dont' have much saved, your kids will get more aid for school.

a reply to: JAGStorm

I sang from the same songbook as you for most of my life. However, I have come to realize the system is seriously broken.

Back in the day, CEOs were paid well but not excessively and it was understood as part of the social compact that workers should be paid at least well enough they could afford to buy the products being produced.

That social compact was shredded and workers thrown to the wolves as jobs were sent overseas to the lowest bidder, often times near-slave type labor in Asia. Bill Clinton saw banking and finance as the engine of economic recovery and ushered in the era of fast money on speculation in the finance and banking industries and Billionaires were created as CEOs salaries were bid up to the moon while workers wages stagnated at near poverty levels. That trend has continued to this day.

Truth be told, no one needs a Billion Dollars; its a waste of resources, a waste of capital. This trend is not sustainable as the riots in Chile, the starvtion in Venezuela and the riots in Lebanon demonstrate.

I am all for capitalism but the system needs be restored to some degree of balance or it will tear itself apart.

We don't need equality, but the 1% should probably have a little less than 20%.

If you consider hoarding in a home, a mental illness, why not hoarding of money?
Some people will never spend what they have, including two generations of their family.

A billionaire could spend $1,000 a day, their life, which is more than 3 (close to 5) times the median and average INCOMES. They would still have enough their children and grand kids could do the same.

... And then their children... And if ANY of it was in any form of interest bearing account? Their children too, probably.

But the billionaire at the top of the list locked away a billion dollars, from the economy for a period of 4 or 5 family generations, during this.


(Trickle down)
I'm sorry, but waiting for a billionaire's grandkids' grandkids' to trickle out the wealth is excessive.
I will be dead, long before that particular type of trickle down happens, so will you.

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: JAGStorm

I sang from the same songbook as you for most of my life. However, I have come to realize the system is seriously broken.

Back in the day, CEOs were paid well but not excessively and it was understood as part of the social compact that workers should be paid at least well enough they could afford to buy the products being produced.

That social compact was shredded and workers thrown to the wolves as jobs were sent overseas to the lowest bidder, often times near-slave type labor in Asia. Bill Clinton saw banking and finance as the engine of economic recovery and ushered in the era of fast money on speculation in the finance and banking industries and Billionaires were created as CEOs salaries were bid up to the moon while workers wages stagnated at near poverty levels. That trend has continued to this day.

Truth be told, no one needs a Billion Dollars; its a waste of resources, a waste of capital. This trend is not sustainable as the riots in Chile, the starvtion in Venezuela and the riots in Lebanon demonstrate.

I am all for capitalism but the system needs be restored to some degree of balance or it will tear itself apart.

It isn't about need. Most billionaires are billionaires because they created a product/service that is worth many times that...

George Lucas is a billionaire off of his ownership of Star Wars. The chick that created Spanx is a billionaire because she created a product that millions of women want. The author of Harry Potter is a billionaire off of her work.

People become billionaires mostly because of their ownership of a valuable company.

Yes, there are some big hedge fund guys who are worth billions, but even those guys "earn" that money. Other institutions and investors give them money to manage. They are able to get returns far in excess of the general market. Often times, these guys are also managing their own money.

I do agree that business (and consumers) have lost some humanity though. I don't like jobs being sent over seas, but at the same time, if consumers want the lowest prices, businesses are going to do what they have to do to compete.

a reply to: Edumakated

It isn't about need. Most billionaires are billionaires because they created a product/service that is worth many times that...

Exactly, how many people scream that, but use Microsoft everyday and order from Amazon?
They might even use those two for their own businesses to make money.

originally posted by: Archivalist

We don't need equality, but the 1% should probably have a little less than 20%.

If you consider hoarding in a home, a mental illness, why not hoarding of money?
Some people will never spend what they have, including two generations of their family.

A billionaire could spend $1,000 a day, their life, which is more than 3 (close to 5) times the median and average INCOMES. They would still have enough their children and grand kids could do the same.

... And then their children... And if ANY of it was in any form of interest bearing account? Their children too, probably.

But the billionaire at the top of the list locked away a billion dollars, from the economy for a period of 4 or 5 family generations, during this.


(Trickle down)
I'm sorry, but waiting for a billionaire's grandkids' grandkids' to trickle out the wealth is excessive.
I will be dead, long before that particular type of trickle down happens, so will you.

There money isn't "horded". Billionaires are not sitting on piles of cash in their basement and lighting cigars with $100 bills like some Scrooge McDuck carton.

Their networth is typically tied up in stock ownership. They can't even access all the money. You could be worth say $10 billion, but may only have access to a fraction of that money. You can't sell all your stock as it would crash the stock price of the company.

Also, a lot of these people didn't actually set out to become billionaires. They just happened to create something that is popular on a global scale.

My wife worked with a woman whose son is worth like $200 million or more now. He created a popular snack bar in his garage about 6 or 7 years ago. The company took off and he got bought by one of the major food companies for like $500 million dollars.... he took a risk and it paid off. He didn't steal the money.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: JAGStorm

My wife see's people with $100k incomes and $60-$100k in credit card debt all the time.

Lots of school teachers making $75k and paying overdraft fees on their checking accounts.

Whenever I go to a store or a fast food place I often see the workers with artificial nails, eyelashes, and expensive hair styles. Maybe I'm weird but I think of cost per hour. Fake nails cost around 60 for a full set, I think to myself, that cashier had to work a full day for those nails, are they worth it?

originally posted by: Edumakated
Also, a lot of these people didn't actually set out to become billionaires. They just happened to create something that is popular on a global scale.

My wife worked with a woman whose son is worth like $200 million or more now. He created a popular snack bar in his garage about 6 or 7 years ago. The company took off and he got bought by one of the major food companies for like $500 million dollars.... he took a risk and it paid off. He didn't steal the money.

Oh that's the beautiful part. We live in America, we are a lot more free to be rich than almost anywhere else on earth.
What is stopping people.... themselves!

a reply to: JAGStorm

A lot of fast food workers are still living with their parents and don't have many other expenses or are receiving government aid of some sort.

Some of them work there to pay for their nails...
Income for the extras.

a reply to: TonyS

I am all for capitalism but the system needs be restored to some degree of balance or it will tear itself apart.

Of course there are things that need fixing. For one I think companies that fail, should fail.
I think companies that do illegal things should be punished more, especially when using illegal labor.

So tired of arguing with you people. No one's asking for income equality and no one ever has. It's a stupid straw man argument.

All anyone's asking for is limits... Reasonable... #ing... Limits...

Not just limits but reasonable minimums.

Ahhh # it, I'm tired and worn out... Enjoy your hate for the common man.

a reply to: Archivalist

There is something called the 80 / 20 rule. Basically, in almost every endeavor, 20% of people are responsible for 80% of revenue, etc. You see this in sales a lot. The top 20% of sales guys will generate 80% of the revenues. You see with customers. 20% of your customers will generate 80% of your revenue.

What is interesting is a quick google search shows that the top 20% of people in the US control about 80% of the wealth. Sure, you have a small cadre of mega rich billionaires that control a lot by themselves, but by in large the top 20% control 80%. Totally normal distribution.

Wealth Inequality in US

a reply to: Puppylove

Yet you can't put an actual number on the "reasonable" minimum.

Im tired of lousy vague definitions of living wage.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: JAGStorm

A lot of fast food workers are still living with their parents and don't have many other expenses or are receiving government aid of some sort.

Some of them work there to pay for their nails...
Income for the extras.

I'm sure that's why, but I think that could be used for further education, for a down-payment to a house, for training for a better job. Not saying that people aren't allowed to treat themselves etc but kinda proves the whole point of my OP.
If we made minimum wage 30 an hour, it would just mean better nails, hair and clothing for some. It would not mean a better life.

originally posted by: Puppylove
So tired of arguing with you people. No one's asking for income equality and no one ever has. It's a stupid straw man argument.

All anyone's asking for is limits... Reasonable... #ing... Limits...

Not just limits but reasonable minimums.

Ahhh # it, I'm tired and worn out... Enjoy your hate for the common man.

Who sets the limits and what is it based on?

Let's say you write some children's book. The book becomes immensely popular. So popular in fact that practically every child on the planet wants a copy. Amusement parks create rides about your book. By default, you are now a billionaire. In real life, this is the author of Harry Potter.

Are you saying that government should step in and say you can't make any more money after maybe the 10 millionth copy was sold?

originally posted by: Puppylove
So tired of arguing with you people. No one's asking for income equality and no one ever has. It's a stupid straw man argument.

All anyone's asking for is limits... Reasonable... #ing... Limits...

Not just limits but reasonable minimums.

Ahhh # it, I'm tired and worn out... Enjoy your hate for the common man.

Define reasonable?

What is reasonable to me, might be unreasonable to you.
What's the limit and why?