Screw Income Equality

a reply to: thedigirati

I understand that, but by most standards you still are, even though a million doesnt feel like a million.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: neo96

Sure fine I can accept that for all things ultimately except health care.

Health care is an entire other OP.
Is healthcare a right or a privileged?

It sounds like you are dealing with some pretty serious medical issues. Just a little advice.
I would go to your primary doctor and tell them about your situation. They might be able to work something out.

Health is more precious than any amount of money.

a reply to: RalagaNarHallas

seems to have worked for those 420 million Chinese who went from a mostly low tech substance life style to well what Americans would call middle class

I agree with everything you said. I must say Chinese middle class right now is closer to what America's middle class was 50 or so years ago.
The US equivalent of poverty for Chinese people is something like 360 dollars a years. Yes, if you make more than 360 a year you are considered not in poverty! Something to think about!

a reply to: JAGStorm

Medical Care is tied directly to income inequality. I'd prefer it wasn't but it is. Medical Care should be a thing supported outside the economy because we all need it. People forget money is made up and doesn't exist. We can if we choose support an entire industry by just giving them what they need. We don't need to base everything off money. We don't need to pay medical professionals, we can straight up give them a higher standard of living at cost to produce it and no one has a right to bitch about it because they all need it.

Build a damn palace with multiple luxury rooms near every medical establishment. Fill it with anything they could need, and give them access to all the luxuries based on their contribution as incentive to work harder. Do the same for researchers with an extra incentive of a permanent increase to their access to luxuries if they find a cure instead of a treatment.

Just one idea, but we need to find a way to seperate health care and the economy. No one needs to be paid to make this happen, at least more than they are now. A factory that builds tvs build hundreds of them they can afford to donate whatever is needed. Carpenters can afford to donate a small bit of time a piece, especially when not paying for materials. Everyone needs medical care so we can afford to donate a small bit of time or resources to it without charging.

Seperate medical care from the economy, make it a right. We'll have more doctors than you can count and great medical care because the work to become a doctor would finally be truly worth it.

originally posted by: thedigirati
a reply to: Puppylove

puppylove I am retired at 58, i can live another 40 years or so

so, am I rich? I have a million dollars in assets, to live on for the next 40 years

plus I have to pay for any medical problem that may arise in that time with no insurance.

How much money should I have to live on for the next 40 years puppylove??

You tell me...

Newsflash: You're not the bloodsucking wealthy end of the spectrum anyone's got in mind here. Not by a goddamn LONG SHOT. Next to someone legitimately wealthy, you are poor. You've under-saved by quite a lot, that million isn't going to be nearly enough. To retire "comfortably" and afford the astronomical healthcare snowball that comes with aging, evidently we need $5 million now, not one.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Is healthcare a right or a privileged?

Neither.

It's a corporate product no different than an Iphone.

Can't be outsourced or it would be made by slave labor in China while 'Muricans get that big fat 'living wage' with all the 'freebie' benefits.

a reply to: Nyiah

Newsflash: You're not the bloodsucking wealthy end of the spectrum anyone's got in mind here. Not by a goddamn LONG SHOT. Next to someone legitimately wealthy, you are poor. You've under-saved by quite a lot, that million isn't going to be nearly enough. To retire "comfortably" and afford the astronomical healthcare snowball that comes with aging, evidently we need $5 million now, not one.

It's all relative. Some people can live a good life off of very little, some can't make it with what seems like a very large amount. Retirement is no different.
I totally agree that health is a massive factor. If a person can keep themselves healthy (and free of any prescriptions) in old age, they will have every advantage.

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: Nyiah

Newsflash: You're not the bloodsucking wealthy end of the spectrum anyone's got in mind here. Not by a goddamn LONG SHOT. Next to someone legitimately wealthy, you are poor. You've under-saved by quite a lot, that million isn't going to be nearly enough. To retire "comfortably" and afford the astronomical healthcare snowball that comes with aging, evidently we need $5 million now, not one.

It's all relative. Some people can live a good life off of very little, some can't make it with what seems like a very large amount. Retirement is no different.
I totally agree that health is a massive factor. If a person can keep themselves healthy (and free of any prescriptions) in old age, they will have every advantage.

The best way to look at that $1 mil for 40 years, especially for two people, is to ask yourself if you can live on $25k right now with all basic household bills, groceries AND healthcare paid for, and with playing with inevitable inflation percentages, too. Can you live on that same $25k when the COL goes up in a decade? 2 decades? All 4 of them? I can't stress enough how it wasn't too long ago that the $1 million example here used to be the buying power equivalent of nearly $2 million. Span of time between 1990 and now, that's how much less far the money stretches.

The only way that money can be milked for all it's worth is to leave the country and find a cheaper one not First World to live out one's remaining days in.

If this doesn't strike you as being fruitless in terms of efforts put into savings planning -- akin to a race of Catch-Up you cannot catch up with -- you're not looking far enough ahead. The end-of-life years, IMO, are rigged to suck every penny and then some from the poor, working and middle classes.

a reply to: Nyiah

I will be honest, at this time I pay 0$

I'm taking care of my blind father, in his paid for home

he buys food, pays electric, Taxes, everything.

I will be here until he dies, could be tomorrow, could be a decade.

I can work if I so choose, but I think I have enough..

Plus I will get another 1/4 to 1/2 million more on his passing

(unless we get a democrat in the whitehouse and the stocks tank)

the only real benefit is, I do not have to pay for a car, I drive my fathers

(I have not owned a car in a decade) I live very cheaply, food, shelter, internet/cable (for the wife)

no cell phone, no computer (this is an XBOX, used 199$).

I ignore medical problems for the most part, most likely I have 17 cancers 🤷‍♀️

I can still get out of bed and get on ATS, and feed my cat.

My investments are just growing right now.

originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: opethPA

originally posted by: rickymouse
I owned a construction company. As workers became more experienced I boosted their wages. Some new guy who is a nice guy and trainable might take a while before you started making money off of him/her until they learned how to do things correctly. I had many times we had to redo things that a new guy worked on. And then you hire someone who says they know how to do something and they screw it up. So raising a person's wage when they gain experience on your crew is essential. If you don't, they go to work for someone that will pay more.

I trained a lot of people to work in my life.

Another thing is a guy working in a nice warm office should not get as much as people working out in the hot sun, the freezing cold, and in the rain and snow. Office workers should not get paid as much as a guy working on a roof or high building or lifting heavy things where risk is higher. The society we are in has pay not relative to work preformed. Work that is hard on the body should pay more. Everyone would want to work at McDs if the pay was equal, there would not be any construction workers.

Couldn't disagree more with your last paragraph.

I work in an office.. Tell me what someone who just works outside in weather like you listed does to make more than I what I have earned the right to make in my career?

Oh wait, is this one of those "manual labor" is more noble then other types of work BS?

Construction workers used to make more than people working in an office or working in a store. But it seems like in the last fifteen years the tide has turned and people doing jobs that are not really needed for survival of our people are making more than those who actually make our society more secure. I know someone selling phone packages that make more than a grocery store manager. I know people who are working for AT&T selling cell phone packages who make more than the people repairing the phone lines for the same company. Those who can trick people into buying things they do not really need make more than those who actually provide necessary services for society.

Great we can just agree to disagree then.

My whole career has been an "office job" same with all my friends. Their is 0 that the type of person you are talking about has done to deserve more than I do in my chosen field.

Sorry I just don't believe in this thought that if you work with your hands you are better or somehow more noble. You want to, great but the good thing is in the real world, that thought process has little to no impact on anything.

Again agree to disagree because nothing you say is changing my mind and nothing as say is changing yours.

Go work in a ditch removing sewer lines and installing new sewer lines. My Son-in-law did that for three years working for a construction company. Do it for five days, the smell on you does not always wash off, there are many chemicals flushed down toilets or used in our households. It may be a little better than it used to be but there is no way to make it good. My daughter took his clothes to the laundromat to clean them, that way everyone who uses the laundromat has the ability to cherish the smell on their clothes.

I lost lots of clothes to tar from working on roofs. I lost other clothes to grease and grime from working on cars and equipment. Pretreating the wash might get the grease off the clothes but it is left in the washer. Office jobs are not that hard on your body like many other jobs are. Many jobs involve using all sorts of chemicals to clean off stuff. Try painting cars, I did some of that with a friend. He just got out of the ER getting metal shavings removed from his eyes, a magnet wouldn't work, stainless steel brushes on a die grinder are not magnetic.

Go to your office job, I have done office work too. I thought office work was such a treat compared to most of the jobs others do. The only problem with office jobs is blood clots from sitting too long in one place, but no different than standing at a job at Kohler putting sand casts into the molds to make sinks. Which I have done. If you can move, no problem, my daughter has a couple of bicycle crank things under a few of her desks, she had a blood clot from sitting at a desk for twelve hours. She owns the company, she does not complain when her workers get up and stretch. If you are working in an office, then drink lots of water, you have to walk to go to the bathroom every hour, it helps to lower risk.

I have worked in many professions during my life, most just long enough to learn what knowledge the jobs had to offer. I like moving around when working, or I get stiff.

You are not the only one who worked in an office, I had about two years doing that, it sucked but was not physically hard. Of course, you want others to believe that your job is hard. When working building houses in the hot sun, you just want to go home and lay down after ten hours. Working on construction is not usually like people see on TV where people are standing around leaning on a shove., only county and municipality workers get to do that. I hated the conflict with the county job I worked at when I was young, if you actually did anything in the day, the other workers blackballed you.

originally posted by: sligtlyskeptical

originally posted by: rickymouse
I owned a construction company. As workers became more experienced I boosted their wages. Some new guy who is a nice guy and trainable might take a while before you started making money off of him/her until they learned how to do things correctly. I had many times we had to redo things that a new guy worked on. And then you hire someone who says they know how to do something and they screw it up. So raising a person's wage when they gain experience on your crew is essential. If you don't, they go to work for someone that will pay more.

I trained a lot of people to work in my life.

Another thing is a guy working in a nice warm office should not get as much as people working out in the hot sun, the freezing cold, and in the rain and snow. Office workers should not get paid as much as a guy working on a roof or high building or lifting heavy things where risk is higher. The society we are in has pay not relative to work preformed. Work that is hard on the body should pay more. Everyone would want to work at McDs if the pay was equal, there would not be any construction workers.

100% agree. wages should be set on desirability of the job. The least desirable jobs should make the most money.

Replacing the main sewer lines in the city sewer system sucks if you are a worker working for a contractor. Of course the city workers do not do that anymore, they did not like getting dirty at all.

a reply to: Nyiah

The best way to look at that $1 mil for 40 years, especially for two people, is to ask yourself if you can live on $25k right now with all basic household bills, groceries AND healthcare paid for, and with playing with inevitable inflation percentages, too.

Yes I could. My costs are more right now, but I am not in retirement. However in my youth, I lived in a very thrifty manner. That is how I did not have any college debt.
It's not that people can't live like that, it's that they don't want to!
Of course there are some requirements to living like that:

-Own your own house
-Garden/hunt/forage
-Have your own well/septic
-supplement with solar
-know herbal remedies
-supplement your income with hobbies, sales from your garden etc...

So you have 2083 per month. Let's say your property taxes are 3000K a year that's 250 a month
Now you have 1833 a month. Let's assume healthcare runs you 500 a month.
That leave 1333. Old people don't eat much, so let's say 250 a month for groceries. That would be plenty, and
would probably even be enough for a couple meals out.

So now you have 1083 a month. Auto insurance would run around 60-100 a month.
Other utilities/cell phone/cable lets just say 200

That gives you around $800 a month......... How is this not livable for two old people? That would cover any hobbies,
any travel, any updates to home/garden.

By gardening, foraging, hunting you are also keeping yourself healthy and even less need for expensive healthcare.

For those that don't think it is possible to own your own home and do those things I mentioned above.. My question to you if it is so
impossible, how are so many other people doing it... choices..

a reply to: JAGStorm

Most financial planners assume a 4% draw down... So if one has $1 million that is $40k/yr. Plus, you factor in typical market returns, the $1 million is actually still growing.

You are correct. Once expenses are reduced, you can live quite comfortably. The trick is having no debt or mortgage.

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: JAGStorm

Most financial planners assume a 4% draw down... So if one has $1 million that is $40k/yr. Plus, you factor in typical market returns, the $1 million is actually still growing.

You are correct. Once expenses are reduced, you can live quite comfortably. The trick is having no debt or mortgage.

No debt or mortgage and no expensive vices like drugs, excessive alcohol, shopping addiction, smoking.

originally posted by: Nyiah

is to ask yourself if you can live on $25k right now with all basic household bills, groceries AND healthcare paid for, and with playing with inevitable inflation percentages, too.

The right word is not "can" it is "how". You can live on 25k, but the how might not be to your liking. It would involve having roommates, basic food without external expenditures, rethinking transportation etc etc.

Can you live on that same $25k when the COL goes up in a decade? 2 decades?

If you plan on having only SS, or a 401k worth 25k a year as your nest egg you are not doing things correctly and you most likely making poor life choices.

The only way that money can be milked for all it's worth is to leave the country and find a cheaper one not First World to live out one's remaining days in.

Ya that can work, medical is an issue at times, but you can live a higher standard. The big question isn't really how much you make in retirement as much how much does it cost.

If I make 150k per year and I want to maintain that level of life style how much money do I actually need per year in my retirement years to do that.

1. No house payment and downsize. for me that would be a savings of around 4,000 per month or 58k gross
150k - 58k = 92k

2. Only one car, maybe an electric. Today I have 4 cars at the cost of 7000 per year insurance, 800 per month in gas, 4000 per year in maintenance/upkeep/miscellaneous 20k gross saving

92k - 20k = 72k

3. Food for 4 people two being teenage boys. About 1000 per month that can easily be 200 per month for two retires. 12k gross savings

72k - 12k = 60k

4. At lease 1000 per month of extra miscellaneous, this is a low estimate.

60k - 12k = 48k

SS at age 62 for 2019 is 2200 per month or about 27k per year

48 - 27 = 21k

You need 401k big enough to get you 21k a year.

If you work to 66 you need about 10k less per year in 401k

a reply to: Xtrozero

If I make 150k per year and I want to maintain that level of life style how much money do I actually need per year in my retirement years to do that.

That is the key part, most people do not know how much they even need to live right now!

If you plan on having only SS, or a 401k worth 25k a year as your nest egg you are not doing things correctly and you most likely making poor life choices.

This is a segment we don't talk about a lot but we are going to have to deal with in the very near future. People that were irresponsible and now they are old with zero savings. The numbers are absolutely shocking when you see how many people have zero, absolutely zero.

a reply to: neo96

Health care is a service which is partially why it won't get much cheaper and will always cost something.

It's provided by another human being, so you can't make it a right without enslaving a class of human being to your needs.

Finding a way to remove the insurance companies for most of our day to day, year to year routine care would do a lot toward reducing costs though.

a reply to: ketsuko

Once again money isn't real. If there's something we all need we can easily as a whole provide more than enough compensation to have people tripping over themselves to do the job. It would take a minimal sacrifice on our behalf.

Sort of a form of mass barter.

Doing things my way it would cost us as individuals next to nothing and have people tripping over themselves to enter the health care field. Instead of understaffed as it is now, it would need to turn people away.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: ketsuko

Once again money isn't real. If there's something we all need we can easily as a whole provide more than enough compensation to have people tripping over themselves to do the job. It would take a minimal sacrifice on our behalf.

Sort of a form of mass barter.

Doing things my way it would cost us as individuals next to nothing and have people tripping over themselves to enter the health care field. Instead of understaffed as it is now, it would need to turn people away.

Your system works, but it only works with very like minded people. It would never work in America as a whole.

I'll give you an example I worked in an Asian restaurant once.
All of us pooled our tips and divided equally. White servers were not allowed to join (yes probably illegal, but this is a long time ago) We grew up with a different culture and we would work 100% every time to save face. White servers were not raised like that, so they would work less if money was pooled. Well at least that was the impression. (not my rule, but that's how it was set up)

If you go into a Chinese or Korean community in America you'll find that they very much barter for everything, including medical care. Resources are shared. You'll find the same thing among many ethnic communities, they pool their money, their resources. How do you think (and I'm using stereotypes here) there are so many Vietnamese nail salons, Indian Gas Stations, Indian Subway restaurants, Korean Dry cleaners etc..?

a reply to: JAGStorm

It's frustrating as hell, the solution is so simple and costs so little as to be basically nothing.