F.B.I. Raids Office of Trump’s Longtime Lawyer Michael Cohen

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: Meniscus

Mueller had to refer it because it was outside of his scope. When an investigation comes across evidence of a crime that's outside the scope of their investigation, the proper procedure is to hand that evidence over to whatever body has jurisdiction over that crime, and let them decide if and how to proceed.

Attorney/client privilege exists regardless of who is doing the investigating, in order for it to be breached there is an extremely high legal threshold. The way it works in practice is that several people in the justice system need to sign off on a warrant to collect those documents, then an entirely separate team to the investigation takes the documents in question, and is responsible for a separate chain of custody. That team will go through the documents, and make note of which documents pertain to the specific warrant. A judge will then go over those documents which were set aside, and determine which documents the prosecutor does and doesn't get access to. After that, the prosecutor gets access to the documents that the judge says are within scope and meet the threshold for violating privilege.

This happens extremely rarely, and can only even be initiated when there is substantial evidence already presented that privilege is being used to cover up conspiracy of a crime. It cannot be used simply to see if someone told their lawyer they were guilty, and are working to defend against that crime. Such a statement will never make it to the prosecutor.

That such documents were specifically seized is a good indication that Cohen, and likely Trump are unquestionably guilty of something. They'll still get their day in court, but this means that overwhelming evidence has already been produced.

Specifically seized? Didn't they take everything? His home offices and hotel?

originally posted by: Aazadan
On further reading, it looks like this is all federal so far, I was confused because last night it was reported as being through the state.

So, Trump could very well pardon this. We could see a situation where Cohen is disbarred, but Trump still pardons him and retains him as his lawyer.

I wonder if such an action would allow Trump to later claim inadequate legal representation and ask for a mistrial when he's found guilty.

The inadequate representation (technically called "ineffective counsel") has to be during the trial itself. You don't get a free pass for having your attorney as a bungling co-conspirator. I mean look at what he did. Both Cohen and 45 say 45 knew nothing of the contract and payment. That means Cohen was a agent with no actual authority, which makes the contract a nullity. The only way to give the contract with Stormy validity is to now admit that Trump, the principal, gave authority to make the payment. that brands both of them as liars and, worse, implicates Cadet Bone Spurs in a campaign finance crime. If he repaid Cohen, then he committed a campaign finance crime. If he authorized the payment, but did not reimburse, then Cohen is guilty of the finance crime and Trump is on the hook for conspiring with Cohen to commit the crime. The bad news there is that the law treats conspiracy more harshly than the crime which is the focus of the conspiracy. The theory is that it is more evil for 2 or more people to combine to commit a crime than for a single person to do the crime. The bottom line is that Cohen didn't do his good buddy any favors by paying off the porn princess. He has put himself and his client in a horrible position. From a legal standpoint, Cohen is dead meat and while Trump still has a heartbeat, it is weak and thready. If I got to pick a side for trial, I'd sure pick the prosecution table. I'd at least have some confidence that my client wouldn't stiff me for the fee.

a reply to: Aazadan

So it's now Trump's fault that a corrupt FBI/DoJ is illegally targeting anyone who ties to represent him?

I've heard everything now.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Meniscus
Specifically seized? Didn't they take everything? His home offices and hotel?

Documents are collected in two groups. One group collects everything relating to attorney/client files, these are the people that will have to sort through that mess and figure out what can and cannot be submitted to a judge. The other group collects everything else. A warrant can cover both.

a reply to: F4guy

I must be missing how a personal equity loan is bank fraud or breaks campaign finance laws. If you pay off a porn star to sign an nda.

a reply to: Annee

And the more outrageous they can make it the better. It's right up there with Hillary's alien baby.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Who else on Trumps team has been targeted? He had an entire team of lawyers, he's now down to one. The last two he hired didn't even last a week before they turned and ran away, and they were already bottom of the barrel lawyers. His chief lawyer before that quit because Trump couldn't keep his mouth shut.

It's 100% Trumps fault that he committed crimes and that he ignores all legal advice, putting his lawyers in tenuous positions.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Aazadan

So it's now Trump's fault that a corrupt FBI/DoJ is illegally targeting anyone who ties to represent him?

SO it's the FBI's fault that Trump hires criminals? and incompetent criminals to boot! When the movie is finally made about this stinking pile of garbage, it will be a "Cohen Brothers" movie, not a spy thriller.

a reply to: Aazadan

How do they know which communication is in which group until it is examined? ESP?

I know! Superman uses his X-ray vision, right?

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Meniscus
a reply to: F4guy

I must be missing how a personal equity loan is bank fraud or breaks campaign finance laws. If you pay off a porn star to sign an nda.

Paying money on Trumps behalf constitutes a gift. There is a legal limit on how much money you can gift to a Presidential candidate.

Trump repaying the money also goes against the legal limitations on what campaign funds can be used for.

If Trump repaid Cohen out of his personal funds, this wouldn't be an issue... using campaign funds has strings attached though.

Basically, Trump is such a stable genius that he took a relatively minor civil suit, and then made every legal misstep he could have possibly made, and turned it into a major criminal suit.

a reply to: Aazadan

Cohen knows the law and is responsible for his own decisions.

Also, backtracking to another comment you left: If Cohen is ever disbarred, he can't represent anyone ever...except himself, pro se.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Aazadan

How do they know which communication is in which group until it is examined? ESP?

I know! Superman uses his X-ray vision, right?

TheRedneck

One team takes things like financial records such as those taxi medallions Cohen was invested in. The other team takes his professional correspondence.

a reply to: Aazadan

Who else on Trumps team has been targeted? He had an entire team of lawyers, he's now down to one. The last two he hired didn't even last a week before they turned and ran away, and they were already bottom of the barrel lawyers.

Well, it beats getting their homes and offices ransacked, I guess. Nice of the FBI to warn them first.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: Aazadan

Cohen knows the law and is responsible for his own decisions.

Also, backtracking to another comment you left: If Cohen is ever disbarred, he can't represent anyone ever...except himself, pro se.

I'm not so sure that Cohen does know the law.

And yes, Trump could still hire him on as an advisor, and get legal advice from him.

originally posted by: Meniscus
a reply to: F4guy

I must be missing how a personal equity loan is bank fraud or breaks campaign finance laws. If you pay off a porn star to sign an nda.

If he lied to the bank about what he was using the funds for, that's fraud.
If the payment was made in an effort to support Trump's election it was a violation.

a reply to: Aazadan

I'm not so sure that Cohen does know the law.

This from someone who wouldn't know how to read an NDA?



NOW I've heard everything!

TheRedneck

a reply to: Phage

If he lied to the bank about what he was using the funds for, that's fraud.

Since when?

TheRedneck

a reply to: Phage

Yeah, but since when do banks require you to tell them how you are going to spend your home equity line of credit? We are currently taking out a new home equity line of credit and our lender didn't ask nor did they give us any restrictions.

They didn't ten years ago, either, when we took out our first home equity line of credit.

Like, who knows ahead of time how you will use a sizable line of credit available for ten years?

I have to agree with soberbacchus on this...there must be something else/more behind this.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
a reply to: Aazadan

Cohen knows the law and is responsible for his own decisions.

Also, backtracking to another comment you left: If Cohen is ever disbarred, he can't represent anyone ever...except himself, pro se.

I'm not so sure that Cohen does know the law.

And yes, Trump could still hire him on as an advisor, and get legal advice from him.

An advisor isn't a lawyer. And clearly Cohen passed the bar...to suggest he doesn't know the law is ridiculous.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Now, now... don't be too hard on him. When I was 6 years old, I was the roughest, toughest cowboy ever known.

TheRedneck