F.B.I. Raids Office of Trump’s Longtime Lawyer Michael Cohen

a reply to: soundguy

From what I understand Mueller had to use a referral in order to not break Trump's attorney client privilege? I guess the idea is Fbi agents that are not part of Muellers team can look for specific evidence and if it is not found they are not allowed to turn anything over to Mueller's team? Doesn't really sound to Kosher to me. At any rate how is Trump's personal lawyer supposed to represent him? The fbi took all cell phones, computers, files basically everything from this lawyer. Doesn't the fact that by seizing everything in the lawyers office it is virtually impossible for Cohen to do his job. And also sends a message to every lawyer that if they represent someone that is part of Mueller's focus they could be investigated themselves? This is Crazy.

a reply to: Aazadan

Perfect! Can I use that?

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: soberbacchus

What rule book are you envisioning?

Start here.

TheRedneck

Or here?

The crime-fraud exception can render the privilege moot when communications between an attorney and client are themselves used to further a crime, tort, or fraud. In Clark v. United States, the US Supreme Court stated that "A client who consults an attorney for advice that will serve him in the commission of a fraud will have no help from the law. He must let the truth be told."[8] The crime-fraud exception also does require that the crime or fraud discussed between client and attorney be carried out to be triggered

en.wikipedia.org...-9

originally posted by: Tempter
www.dailymail.co.uk...

Also, one of the best, if not the best, legal minds in America has said the seizure of docs was unconstitutional.

So, there's that.

That description does not comport with Dershowitz.

So, uh, #MAGA?

My attorney got arrested?

I'll show myself out...

originally posted by: knoxie
Lou Dobbs
‏Verified account

@LouDobbs
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#LDTPoll: Do you believe the corrupt leadership and actions of the DOJ and FBI are now so outrageous and overwhelming that President Trump should fire Special Counsel Robert Mueller, Attorney General Jeff Sessions and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein?

25% Yes
75% No


wasn't what he was hoping for. LOL

Patience, give the Russian Titter Bot Machine time to cue up.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: MotherMayEye

Too bad this is about the money not the NDA.
And the money that was paid came from somewhere and a lie was told in its obtainment unless Cohen told the bank I'm paying hush money to a porn star on behalf of candidate donald trump.
He could not enter into any kind of agreement without trumps knowledge. If he did he committed an ethics offense and will likely be disbarred.
More trump effect. Given enough time everything he touches turns to #.

It is not a crime to take a personal equity loan from a bank and pay hush money to cover up embarrassing sex shenanigans.

originally posted by: RomeByFire
So, uh, #MAGA?

My attorney got arrested?

I'll show myself out...

Was Cohen arrested???

Link please!

originally posted by: Meniscus

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: MotherMayEye

Too bad this is about the money not the NDA.
And the money that was paid came from somewhere and a lie was told in its obtainment unless Cohen told the bank I'm paying hush money to a porn star on behalf of candidate donald trump.
He could not enter into any kind of agreement without trumps knowledge. If he did he committed an ethics offense and will likely be disbarred.
More trump effect. Given enough time everything he touches turns to #.

It is not a crime to take a personal equity loan from a bank and pay hush money to cover up embarrassing sex shenanigans.

And that little bank fraud would not warrant a multi-location raid by the FBI.

This is much bigger than that, whatever it ends up being.

a reply to: Liquesence

Did you conveniently forget the guilty pleas and indictments, so far?

Please, show me where Trump has pleaded guilty to anything or been the subject of an indictment.

Any such activities by those other than Trump and Cohen which were due to actions outside the Trump campaign are irrelevant to this discussion.

I call it sufficient evidence of ongoing criminal activity (criminal conspiracy) to issue a warrant, hence the raid. And it only goes deeper.

Well, don't keep us all in suspense! What is Cohen being charged with? What is Trump being charged with? Where can I see the indictments? What evidence is there to support these charges?

Here we all are, speculating our little hineys off,and you have all this inside information!

I also call it Rule of Law.

Until you answer the question above, I'll just call it an overactive imagination. Is He-Man and Skeletor involved in your imaginative fantasy?

TheRedneck

a reply to: Meniscus

Mueller had to refer it because it was outside of his scope. When an investigation comes across evidence of a crime that's outside the scope of their investigation, the proper procedure is to hand that evidence over to whatever body has jurisdiction over that crime, and let them decide if and how to proceed.

Attorney/client privilege exists regardless of who is doing the investigating, in order for it to be breached there is an extremely high legal threshold. The way it works in practice is that several people in the justice system need to sign off on a warrant to collect those documents, then an entirely separate team to the investigation takes the documents in question, and is responsible for a separate chain of custody. That team will go through the documents, and make note of which documents pertain to the specific warrant. A judge will then go over those documents which were set aside, and determine which documents the prosecutor does and doesn't get access to. After that, the prosecutor gets access to the documents that the judge says are within scope and meet the threshold for violating privilege.

This happens extremely rarely, and can only even be initiated when there is substantial evidence already presented that privilege is being used to cover up conspiracy of a crime. It cannot be used simply to see if someone told their lawyer they were guilty, and are working to defend against that crime. Such a statement will never make it to the prosecutor.

That such documents were specifically seized is a good indication that Cohen, and likely Trump are unquestionably guilty of something. They'll still get their day in court, but this means that overwhelming evidence has already been produced.

Again, privilege can only be breached when the attorney and client are discussing committing crimes, or covering up new crimes. Not when discussing a defense against the crime they were hired to defend against. So one possibility of what this could mean in this instance, is that they were looking for documents relating to Karen McDougal and Keith Dickenson. Dickenson was McDougal's lawyer when she signed an NDA with Trump similar to what was done with Stormy (she was a Playboy model, and Trump had a 2 year affair with her in 2006-2007). What makes that particular case interesting though, is that McDougal's attorney switched sides in the negotiation, after negotiating a contract for his client, and then represented Trump alongside Cohen (and this was kept from McDougal until after she signed the NDA). So one thing that they could be looking for here, is communications that would have involved bribing Dickenson. That would qualify for violating privilege.

a reply to: Sillyolme

Go for it.

a reply to: soberbacchus

1) I already explained that.

2) Wikipedia is not US Code.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DanDanDat
Public opinion of the investigation by those that matter (let's call them undecides) will not be kind if they try to go after Trump on something less important than ties to Russia and certainly not over a sex scandal. The opposition has already made up its mind; supporters have already made up their minds ... so it comes down to turn out for them. But for Trump to get in trouble over these investigations the reason has to be big enough for the quite majority to push their congressman and stormy just isnt big enough.

Guilt isn't determined by public opinion though.

Your right Guilt isnt determined by public opinion. The government is full of the guilty.

However the punishment of the guilty is determined by public opinion and that is why the government is full of the guilty.

There simply is no political will at this time to punish most of the guilty and in this particular case there will not be enough political will to punish Trump if all he is found to be guilty of is having sex with a porn star and paying her hush money.

a reply to: RomeByFire

WOW...

Whatever they found must have been REALLY bad!

Cohen is already complimenting the FBI on how great they are!

"I am unhappy to have my personal residence and office raided. But I will tell you that members of the FBI that conducted the search and seizure were all extremely professional, courteous and respectful. And I thanked them at the conclusion," Cohen said in a phone conversation on Tuesday with CNN.

Asked if he was worried, Cohen said; "I would be lying to you if I told that I am not. Do I need this in my life? No. Do I want to be involved in this? No."

Cohen did not fault the FBI agents who conducted the raid at his house, office and a hotel where he is temporarily staying.

www.cnn.com...

a reply to: TheRedneck

Please, show me where Trump has pleaded guilty to anything or been the subject of an indictment.

He hasn't. But some of those around him, in his campaign, have.

Any such activities by those other than Trump and Cohen which were due to actions outside the Trump campaign are irrelevant to this discussion.

They are pieces of the puzzle. And Cohen got raided, with a warrant.

Well, don't keep us all in suspense! What is Cohen being charged with?

I don't know. We'll wait and see.

What is Trump being charged with?

I don't know. We'll wait and see.

Where can I see the indictments?

When they arrive, you will see them.

hat evidence is there to support these charges?

There appears to be evidence of something, hence the warrant and raid.

Here we all are, speculating our little hineys off,and you have all this inside information!

It is rational speculation based upon things that have actually happened.

Until you answer the question above, I'll just call it an overactive imagination. Is He-Man and Skeletor involved in your imaginative fantasy?

You can call it whatever you want, but these things are actually happening. In reality.

originally posted by: Meniscus
It is not a crime to take a personal equity loan from a bank and pay hush money to cover up embarrassing sex shenanigans.

In this case, it is because it runs against campaign finance law. Money paid on Trumps behalf constitutes a gift. If he made the contribution in coordination with Trumps campaign, which is implied by his campaign reimbursing him, it exceeds the legal maximum value. This is a felony punishable by up to 30 years. If he made the contribution not in coordination with Trumps campaign, then Trump isn't a party to the contract and it's unenforceable, the reimbursement in this situation could also run into campaign finance violations (why was he given money, for something unrelated to the campaign?) and also punishable for 30 years.

Either way, Cohen is in a lot of trouble. If he murdered someone in broad daylight he would be in less legal trouble than he is in right now.

a reply to: Aazadan

this means that overwhelming evidence has already been produced.

Yeah, like "Russian hookers peed on Trump! The Russians said so! That proves Trump colluded with the Russians! We have to wire-tap someone in his campaign!"

Sorry, not impressed.

TheRedneck

a reply to: soberbacchus

The Russian Twitter-bot army is focusing on Syria (how Russia is protecting Syrians from US aggression) and calling the assassination of Sergei Skirpal a US false flag(claiming it was the Americans who assassinated the Russian):

dashboard.securingdemocracy.org...

It's all about gas-lighting and propaganda to make Putin look good. Trump getting elected was good for Putin because Putin had a lot of 'ins' with Trump that could greatly influence the direction of US policy to make for a stronger Russia. Anything that weakens America, strengthens Russia on the world stage.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that probable cause that the President is being blackmailed, and that he was colluding with foreign powers to win an election hasn't been presented. The White House, Congress, and Trumps personal legal team have been hemorrhaging people for a year, because anyone who gets close to this case realizes hows toxic it is, and that they need to be far, far, away.

Think about this. The President of the United States cannot get a single law firm anywhere in Washington DC to represent him. Obviously, that doesn't mean that Trump is guilty, but it does mean that it's likely that whatever these firms and people on the inside have seen, is so clear cut, and such a big deal, that they want absolutely no part of it.

We are honestly not that far removed from seeing the President appointed a public defender because representing Trump is so toxic, due to his reputation and this case, that not a single lawyer is willing to actually join the team.