Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Oh I am sorry I keyed in the wrong word your majesty. I will correct it for you

You don't believe in Jesus or the Bible or God.

Good luck getting into heaven on your own.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Oh I am sorry I keyed in the wrong word your majesty. I will correct it for you

You don't believe in Jesus or the Bible or God.

Good luck getting into heaven on your own.

LOL...gotcha po'ed didn't I ? So much for your "transformation".
Oh, and by the way, about the only thing I still think is worth a dang in the "Bible"....IS Jesus.
But hey, you can judge me all day long. It's no problem for me. It just confirms to me even more, that Pauline Christians are just like PAUL.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Good luck getting into heaven on your own.

Man dude, you have a serious conundrum.
Hey, another question for you (though I doubt you'll answer it). HOW EXACTLY, did Elijah get taken up to Heaven?
I mean, according to Paul there was "none righteous...no not ONE". Yet, before PAUL ever came on the scene, apparently God thought Elijah was righteous enough to just get "TAKEN UP".
Yup... no cross, no Jesus dying for his sins...just went up there to the "yonder". Huh. Kinda funny that is.

Oh, and another thing...I think Jesus DID mention something about the "Kingdom of Heaven being WITHIN you". Personally, I think that means that GOD is within you, when you believe in HIS SON'S words...which would be GOD'S words.
Jesus was pretty much the conduint for the TRUE Father.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

So, basically...."god" (the one Paul portrayed anyway) is a sadist. Seems he likes to "pick and choose" those who he WANTS to have mercy on...and those he doesn't. Basically, if you aren't "in the club", then you are screwed.
Soooo....LORD help ya if he doesn't grant you his mercy.
Wow. Such a benevolent being Paul portrayed.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Just like Paul picks and chooses the parts of the Torah or "Curse that is the Law" that he feels solidify his arguments.

When it's time to gain converts the law is "done away with", when it's time to keep the converted in line THEN it is perfectly applicable, even though it's a curse, dead and the story of Abraham and Haggar "allegory."

Allegory is abundant in the OT, and the allegorical content of Haggar is not understood or explained by Paul properly.

"God" or Yahweh and even some Patriarchs often give rights of the first born to younger children, Jacob schemes, Abraham doesn't care about Ishmael and considered Isaac his first born even though it was Ishmael, Joseph crossed his hands when passing the blessing, etc.

If Paul wants to curse the Torah, fine, but don't claim to have been a Pharisee and use it to manipulate people into following you hell by thinking you know what you are talking about when you don't, PAUL.

Allegorical interpretation was the intellectual brainchild of the Hellenist Jews of Alexandria and didn't find favor among Jews until long after the demise of that great city, it was the Greeks who they learned this art from and Alexandrian Jewry has left only Philo Judaeus to show us the difference between the Hellenized Jew and the Palestinian zealous Jews who interpreted things allegorically but without saying they are fictitious events. They may have used allegory but not so as to say that the Torah or any part was fictitious with regards to their most important ancestor Abraham. Philo was a Jew and an allegorist but still doesn't offer the cheap fictitious interpretations that Paul concocts.

To tell you the truth I don't think Paul knew what allegory even means as if he did he'd have used "enigma."

Paul just made things up as he went and can be found to contradict himself mere paragraphs apart, he was a total tool for Rome and Roman law, which is why he wants people to forsake their own culture and assimilate to Rome's, disguised as a new form of Judaism for the whole world.

The funny thing is that I can't think of more than 2 early Jewish Christian Church fathers, so as a Jewish religion it was destroyed, and repackaged with lies, lies and lies to be sold to everyone but Jews. Nazarenes were even declared heretics and JESUS and JTB were Nazarenes!!!

WTF?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Oh I am sorry I keyed in the wrong word your majesty. I will correct it for you

You don't believe in Jesus or the Bible or God.

Good luck getting into heaven on your own.

I believe this is called faith shaming.

Christians only use it when they fail to win a debate using logic and humility is then abandoned as you are informed of your destination after death and of your heathen "inferiority."

And why nobody with a brain believes the Bible should be taken literally as it produces people who pretend to be pious yet threaten people with hell because logic is unable to convince anyone of the truth of Christianity.

Transparent and hypocritical, that is the Christian for you. It's very much like a mental illness as the person loses control of their mind.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

Without the Pauline letters the Trinity has no foundation in scripture.

I have yet to find the word trinity anywhere in the Bible.

But I did find this

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Comma Johanneum

I think I will mention, since it relates to the G. of John, that the word God in Greek is a different word than the one used for THE God in the beginning of John.

Properly translated it would read:

"...and the Word was A god." As in one of several or many.

A god vs God are two totally different meanings and how it reads in Greek.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

I with Christ I am in Christ and he in me and I in Him seated in the heavenly places just as Jesus said I would be with him.

I have the real deal and if you would compare Jesus teachings ALL of them with Paul's you will find he an Jesus agree on a lot.

Go with Christ bra! Paul is THE Wolf.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

When Jesus was crucified, the NT reports the Temple veil being torn.

The word in Hebrew for that veil was Masach or Mashach. The word for Messiah is Maschiach, and since Hebrew had no vowel symbols then they are the same word.

Clever word play was common in Hebrew scriptures, rarely surviving translation and usually losing the meaning.

Interesting. The veil of the temple was what separated the high priests from the rest of the tribe - only the high priest could go behind the veil of the temple. Now with Jesus tearing the veil from the top to bottom, all have access to God and not just the High Priests. The depth of scripture is mind-boggling.

Jesus was crucified at Golgotha or "the place of the skull" i.e. the head. Meaning he didn't actually get crucified, die and ressurect.

It is something that happened in the minds of the myth makers and anyone who properly comprehends the meaning behind the mystery.

If he didn't actually die and resurrect then the entire point of Christianity is erroneous.

Why? What effect does his death have on your life? Only what your mind lets it.

Jesus obviously didn't ressurect from the dead. He also didn't ressurect people from their graves.

But both are SAID TO have happened because there is meaning, more profound than in any literal reading, of death and resurrection and it being interpreted literally is actually the pointless thing.

The Truth manifests on many planes - symbolic, literal, etc.. Many see the symbolic without seeing the importance of the literal and vice versa. Perhaps Golgotha, albeit a literal place, indicated that our own individual cross or passover is to occur within the place of our skull; the Kingdom Within.

Golgotha is not a literal place and even in the first centuries baffled the Church as it only appears in the Gospels and no other Hebrew writing until the Zohar.

It means the mind, the only place Jesus was ever crucified and ressurected. The author is essentially saying it is all in the mind, in a good way. You have to read between the lines, Jesus was crucified at the place of the skull, which is the head and not a place on a map.

I find it sad you need the myth to be historically true to have a purpose, and factually incorrect. You will never have proof that it is and it seems unlikely to be historically accurate.

If you need it to be history then you probably have time as a Christian and would feel the fool for having believed a myth was history, but it doesn't have to be that way for everyone and many people benefit more from treating it as the myth it is.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: SethTsaddik

I kinda have a different reason for why the veil was torn. I think the TRUE Father (the Most High God) was pretty ticked that His Son was just murdered.
I mean, to me, Jesus not only stood up for the "least of these" (and I include animals in that), but He challenged the false deity "YHWH".
Now, not to long after that....Paul enters the scene, and changes EVERYTHING. He changed the message Jesus brought.
Somehow, someway, Saul of Tarsus took AWAY from the truth of Jesus' message and made it his own.
One doesn't have to look any further than the "church" today. THAT is the ROTTEN FRUIT of a false apostle being believed as a true one.
Divisiveness, contradiction in scripture, "believers" who can't even come together due to doctrinal differences, and 40,000 plus denominations just in AMERICA alone.
You think maybe there's a problem there? Ya? Well, I can tell you one thing....those problems DO NOT stem from the Son of Man (Jesus...though that's not His real name), nor do they stem from the true disciples Jesus picked (whom His Father told Him to pick)....they stem from a lying, braggart, who claimed apostleship without being one.

Makes perfect sense to me, Jesus spoke of destroying Yahweh's Temple completely too.

I just thought that the words being the same, having no vowels, had a significance that got lost in translation. There are layers of interpretation to scripture so one needn't rule out the other.

And it's actual evidence that at some point the story was originally written in Hebrew, which is important too.

I agree, Most High God and Yahweh are not the same. Hell Deuteronomy says as much, and one of the Psalms.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

And you use the goyim excuse to gloss over the fact that God is true

That can't be proven so isn't a fact.

and you are liar, deceiving people and turning them from the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.

I see, and what "lie" did I tell?

Did you think you were making sense here, Chester?

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Jesus had mercy on him because of who he is God almighty in the flesh

It was a "her" and not a "he" that I was asking about (you know, the adulteress story??)
Jesus was not GOD ALMIGHTY IN THE FLESH. That is a false doctrine. Jesus told EVERYONE who listened to Him to WORSHIP HIS GOD, THAT WAS ALSO OUR GOD.
THAT GOD (the one Jesus came to show us) was NOTHING LIKE YHWH.
Hey, I challenge you to show how YHWH and the Father Jesus represented are one and the same.
Good luck.

I love how even though Jesus denied being God people still pretend otherwise because they don't read the book they preach as salvation!

Good work.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

I love how even though Jesus denied being God people still pretend otherwise because they don't read the book they preach as salvation!

Good work.

What is a Son to a Father? A son develops into the Father's inheritance. When Jesus said he was a Son of God the Jews thought this as blasphemy because He, by calling Himself a Son of God, was making Himself equal to God. Jesus responds with Psalm 82 which claims all of us are Gods - "children of the Most High God". He called us his Brothers and Sisters, if we are His Brothers and Sisters, then we too are supposed to lay claim to an inheritance of God.

Please don't stand atop a pedestal down-talking anyone who is actually discovering the deep mysteries of the Good News. Yes there are hypocrites, but you seem to be treating this like a mental exercise trying to show how silly and backwards religious folk are.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

Though Jesus Christ too recognizes the difference in the godhead i.e. the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost. He also recognizes the oneness with the father and the spirit, and the oneness with believers in general. This oneness is not that of purpose or ideas but it is a spiritual/physical oneness.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

It seems the Jews knew very well who he was making himself out to be.

So like I said you are wrong and God is true and it is preserved in his word for us today.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Come now Matrix answer my question. You are not answering my direct question I didn't hide my question as you did in a statement I asked you directly. You are the one who said he violated ALL the Laws. Which was obvious you were speaking of the Law of Moses.

So here is the question again,

Other than the Sabbath (which he and I showed you he did not violate as you say) what others Laws of Moses did Jesus violate?

You are being childish in your ways of posting. Taking verses out of context. trying to shame me for making a mistake with the word him and her. And then you say you got me po'ed and what Transformation. I have been rational with you and you keep up this childish nonsense.

Are you incapable in having a rational conversation without getting personal all the time?

This is not the first time, it seems you are able to dish it out but can't take it when the tables are turned.

Please I am trying to be civil with you. But you are irrational and condescending without any real cause to be. You knew quite well what I meant even if the words were wrong.

So give it a break and answer the question.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

you have not studied nor believe the Bible. You are the wolf here along with the others.

Thanks to all of you. I have found that Jesus created Christianity and Paul set down the doctrines that have lasted until today.

Thanks to you all I have deeply compared Jesus teaching with that of Paul and found they are in agreement more than you all say they are. Paul expands by inspiration of God on all the teachings of Jesus from paying taxes, to living by the gospel, being in Christ, His resurrection, his work n the cross not just for the nation of Israel but expanded to include all mankind. How to live in this world while we await Christ return differs from Jesus teaching in Matt 5-7 because you cannot follow those all those verses in this world.

You go ahead try to get to heaven on your own. No resurrection means no covering for your sin, no resurrection means no life for you, no resurrection means no justification before God for you.

Good luck with that.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SethTsaddik

you have not studied nor believe the Bible. You are the wolf here along with the others.

Grr. You are a terrible prophet, I have read and studied the Bible. I do not believe as you believe but in the Way.

However I did not call you a wolf, I called Paul The Wolf as in Wolf of the tribe of Benjamin. Why you would take what I think of Paul personally, evidenced by the personal insult, is no big mystery.

You lack the hallmark humility of a true disciple of Christ and bare all the traits of the egomaniacal Paul. It's the way Christianity is today and not just you, a bunch of unlettered and unenlightened, intolerant, self righteous schmucks peddling heaven with threats of hell.

Thanks to all of you. I have found that Jesus created Christianity and Paul set down the doctrines that have lasted until today.

The horrible doctrines that inspired the office of the Inquisition and burnt people at the stake for ''heresy"?

Not anything to brag about Chester.

Thanks to you all I have deeply compared Jesus teaching with that of Paul and found they are in agreement more than you all say they are. Paul expands by inspiration of God on all the teachings of Jesus from paying taxes, to living by the gospel, being in Christ, His resurrection, his work n the cross not just for the nation of Israel but expanded to include all mankind. How to live in this world while we await Christ return differs from Jesus teaching in Matt 5-7 because you cannot follow those all those verses in this world.

You go ahead try to get to heaven on your own. No resurrection means no covering for your sin, no resurrection means no life for you, no resurrection means no justification before God for you.

Good luck with that.

Well I see you have it all figured out, praise Yahweh "infanticide" Sabaoth!!!

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

I love how even though Jesus denied being God people still pretend otherwise because they don't read the book they preach as salvation!

Good work.

What is a Son to a Father? A son develops into the Father's inheritance. When Jesus said he was a Son of God the Jews thought this as blasphemy because He, by calling Himself a Son of God, was making Himself equal to God.

Jesus was the Son of God in title. That is not God itself, just something he called himself, we are all sons and daughters of God. This is not the same as saying ''I am your God, have no other God before me."

Not even close. And the person who wrote that didn't know Jesus, but he didn't call him God either. I love the way you stretch logic, a father and son are not equal, ever.

Two separate entities, and not every use of father or Father is in the biological sense. King David was also called by Yahweh ''my Son."

Bad, flawed argument.

Jesus responds with Psalm 82 which claims all of us are Gods - "children of the Most High God". He called us his Brothers and Sisters, if we are His Brothers and Sisters, then we too are supposed to lay claim to an inheritance of God.

Please don't stand atop a pedestal down-talking anyone who is actually discovering the deep mysteries of the Good News. Yes there are hypocrites, but you seem to be treating this like a mental exercise trying to show how silly and backwards religious folk are.

Sorry, but Jesus denied being God when he denied being good because ''Only God is good" and rebuked the one who called him good, sternly.

If only God is good, according to Jesus who was saying God alone and not he Jesus, then Jesus just eliminated the possibility of him being God.

By simply denying it by saying not to call him good, because only God, who is not Jesus, is good.

It gets no more concrete than that, all you can offer is metaphors and allegory.

a reply to: cooperton

Further, to imply equality with God is also erroneous, Son of God or not Jesus prayed to God, God listened. Jesus was doing the will of a higher being, not an equal.

"Only the Father knows the times..."

States outright that God has knowledge Jesus doesn't. He may have called him his Father, but he also called Him his God and said ''Love God with all your heart" was the greatest commandment.

He didn't say "Love me Jesus, who am God too."

Because he wasn't God and his power was all given him, by his God. I am familiar with the typical attempts at reasoning that Jesus was God and they ALL fail the test.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
]I love the way you stretch logic, a father and son are not equal, ever.

"For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18)

I see you calling Chester a lesser Christian, yet you don't even believe in the passion of Christ... and worse yet, you call people ignorant who believe in Jesus's actual existence. Are you a Christian or not because you are repeatedly contradicting your self.

(Jesus and God are) Two separate entities,

Not according to Jesus:

"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

and not every use of father or Father is in the biological sense. King David was also called by Yahweh ''my Son."

The Heavenly Father is not like our biological father, Jesus made this clear when he particularly said my Father in Heaven

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
a reply to: cooperton

States outright that God has knowledge Jesus doesn't. He may have called him his Father, but he also called Him his God and said ''Love God with all your heart" was the greatest commandment.

He called Him His Father because it was the best way for us to understand the relationship between us and God. A Child develops into the inheritance of the Father (John 14:2).