Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: cooperton

These are not claims of him being God...

Claiming God is his Father is not claiming he was equal to him... This is just the Judaic belief system... anything relating to God is like claiming to be God to them... its blasphemy for them to even type the word God...

And when he said I and my father are one... it does not mean "one and the same"... just as when two are married the two become one... that does not mean the two become one person

He is correct in that all claims of being God fall short and utterly fail when one knows his teaching

HE never once claimed to be equal to God.... and in fact there are three passages in john that state God is greater then himself

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: cooperton

These are not claims of him being God...

Claiming God is his Father is not claiming he was equal to him... This is just the Judaic belief system... anything relating to God is like claiming to be God to them... its blasphemy for them to even type the word God...

And when he said I and my father are one... it does not mean "one and the same"... just as when two are married the two become one... that does not mean the two become one person

He is correct in that all claims of being God fall short and utterly fail when one knows his teaching

HE never once claimed to be equal to God.... and in fact there are three passages in john that state God is greater then himself

I was never arguing this. I simply said that the Father-Son analogy is perfect regarding our relationship with God. The Jews felt this was Him claiming to be equal - which makes sense, because a Son develops to one day become a Father.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I answered your question, time for you to answer mine.

What Laws of Moses other than the Sabbath did Jesus break?

It was you who said he broke ALL the Laws. So now time for you to back up your claim with facts fro the word of God the Holy Bible.

a reply to: cooperton

a prophecy concerning Jesus said he is the everlasting father

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

lol no... that isn't about Jesus

That passage is about Israel... read the whole chapter

And besides that point... Jesus wasn't called any of those names... Ever

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Just like Paul picks and chooses the parts of the Torah or "Curse that is the Law" that he feels solidify his arguments.

When it's time to gain converts the law is "done away with", when it's time to keep the converted in line THEN it is perfectly applicable, even though it's a curse, dead and the story of Abraham and Haggar "allegory."

Allegory is abundant in the OT, and the allegorical content of Haggar is not understood or explained by Paul properly.

"God" or Yahweh and even some Patriarchs often give rights of the first born to younger children, Jacob schemes, Abraham doesn't care about Ishmael and considered Isaac his first born even though it was Ishmael, Joseph crossed his hands when passing the blessing, etc.

If Paul wants to curse the Torah, fine, but don't claim to have been a Pharisee and use it to manipulate people into following you hell by thinking you know what you are talking about when you don't, PAUL.

Allegorical interpretation was the intellectual brainchild of the Hellenist Jews of Alexandria and didn't find favor among Jews until long after the demise of that great city, it was the Greeks who they learned this art from and Alexandrian Jewry has left only Philo Judaeus to show us the difference between the Hellenized Jew and the Palestinian zealous Jews who interpreted things allegorically but without saying they are fictitious events. They may have used allegory but not so as to say that the Torah or any part was fictitious with regards to their most important ancestor Abraham. Philo was a Jew and an allegorist but still doesn't offer the cheap fictitious interpretations that Paul concocts.

To tell you the truth I don't think Paul knew what allegory even means as if he did he'd have used "enigma."

Paul just made things up as he went and can be found to contradict himself mere paragraphs apart, he was a total tool for Rome and Roman law, which is why he wants people to forsake their own culture and assimilate to Rome's, disguised as a new form of Judaism for the whole world.

The funny thing is that I can't think of more than 2 early Jewish Christian Church fathers, so as a Jewish religion it was destroyed, and repackaged with lies, lies and lies to be sold to everyone but Jews. Nazarenes were even declared heretics and JESUS and JTB were Nazarenes!!!

WTF?

Right there with ya. Oh, and yet...you don't know scripture. Huh.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I answered your question, time for you to answer mine.

What Laws of Moses other than the Sabbath did Jesus break?

It was you who said he broke ALL the Laws. So now time for you to back up your claim with facts fro the word of God the Holy Bible.

No, I said Jesus did not keep ONE law that YHWH commanded. Do you even read the OT? Or, the Torah (the first five books, supposedly written by Moses?...except Moses would have had to have written about his own death, which is impossible). Anyway, in those books, there are numerous laws, sacrifices commanded, and those YHWH deemed unclean.
Jesus not only reached out to those who would have been considered "unclean" to YHWH, but Jesus did not reject those whom YHWH would have, nor order their death (once again, "woman caught in adultery").
Now, the only way around that, is to say that Jesus was "God in the flesh"...thus, He could change the rules.
However, if YHWH was so merciful and kind in the FIRST place, then why all the stipulations at first anyway? That makes NO kind of sense.
All it shows is a nit picky, intolerant diety, who could very well be called "bi-polar" since he goes from "kill them with no mercy" to having mercy.
That just doesn't add up. The only way around THAT is to say that YHWH decided to cut off his own people after sending Jesus to be TOTALLY different in character than himself, then, when "said people" don't receive Jesus, cut them off and make ALL the law unnecessary (for the gentiles).....as long as you believe Jesus died for your sins. (oh....and as long as you listen to Saul (aka, Paul).
Yea....makes complete sense.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I answered your question, time for you to answer mine.

Except you forgot to answer many other's I've asked. You can start with how Elijah got taken up to heaven (before dying, as well), if according to Paul, NO ONE is righteous...no NOT ONE.
Could you also explain how Jesus called many righteous? Oh, and this was before He was murdered (to be the only way to Heaven, according to Pauline Christianity).

a reply to: cooperton

Also, since your argument was that Jesus calling himself the Son of God is the same as calling himself God and though I have already proven this argument to be fallacious I will add this.

"Call no man your father, for you have one Father, and He is in Heaven."

Jesus also said we were children of the Father who we are to consider our only Father, making us sons and daughters.

Are we God too?

Rhetorical question, does not require a response so don't feel obligated. I think that is, if you have any sense of logic, case closed on the Son of God= God argument.

Just in case, besides David, the Sons of God are also mentioned in the OT, but considered angels while human Jesus gets granted (against his wishes) the status of God the Son.

If Son of God=God then Judaism and Christianity are wildly polytheistic religions and guilty of serious treachery by claiming to be monotheistic, deceiving many.

Judaism considers the Ben Elohim to be angels and so does Christianity. Well Jesus was human, not even an angel and like David, human. His Son of God status was acquired at baptism ''This day" whether or not the Prophet knew it was coming (he sounds like he did) is irrelevant because the word of his Father was "This day" that he became his Son.

And if the Son of God was a god or God you lose the ethical right to claim Monotheism and denounce polytheism both, no weak counter argument will ever make 3=1, you can call yourself what you wish but a Monotheist the Christian is not.

For that matter, few can be called true disciples of the Nazarene.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: cooperton

These are not claims of him being God...

Claiming God is his Father is not claiming he was equal to him... This is just the Judaic belief system... anything relating to God is like claiming to be God to them... its blasphemy for them to even type the word God...

And when he said I and my father are one... it does not mean "one and the same"... just as when two are married the two become one... that does not mean the two become one person

He is correct in that all claims of being God fall short and utterly fail when one knows his teaching

HE never once claimed to be equal to God.... and in fact there are three passages in john that state God is greater then himself

I was never arguing this. I simply said that the Father-Son analogy is perfect regarding our relationship with God. The Jews felt this was Him claiming to be equal - which makes sense, because a Son develops to one day become a Father.

"... which makes sense, because..."

So you ARE, right now, denying having said that S.o.G.=God AND saying that it makes sense? You did say it, first, and are still saying it although trying to appear otherwise.

You did say that Jesus was, by calling himself the Son of God, stating equality. I just dismantled your argument and you can no longer use it.

So don't try saying you were pointing to an analogy between our relationship with God and...whatever AND deny claiming Son of God=God because I remember you saying that S.o.G.=God, it was today.

Was it the Jews who mistakenly thought he was calling himself God's equal and killed him?

Or are you saying he said he was God (again), by calling himself Son?

You make no sense.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

I love how even though Jesus denied being God people still pretend otherwise because they don't read the book they preach as salvation!

Good work.

What is a Son to a Father? A son develops into the Father's inheritance. When Jesus said he was a Son of God the Jews thought this as blasphemy because He, by calling Himself a Son of God, was making Himself equal to God. Jesus responds with Psalm 82 which claims all of us are Gods - "children of the Most High God". He called us his Brothers and Sisters, if we are His Brothers and Sisters, then we too are supposed to lay claim to an inheritance of God.

Please don't stand atop a pedestal down-talking anyone who is actually discovering the deep mysteries of the Good News. Yes there are hypocrites, but you seem to be treating this like a mental exercise trying to show how silly and backwards religious folk are.

Silly and backward are your words.

I said people claim that Jesus is God and that he himself denied it, a factual statement I have already proven. I am quoting this because you responded with it to that statement, although I don't know why unless you feel like Jesus WAS claiming equality, the Jews "thought" it was blasphemy, and killed him.

And if you are saying a son gets the father's inheritance you must think that Jesus is the actual Son of God and equal.

So just don't deny it while accusing me of things I am not guilty. Facts are facts, I didn't insult anyone, just made humor of the error in Christianity.

A religion that threatens people who don't accept the Pauline doctrine to hellfire, so I don't feel guilty about a thing when it comes to pointing out obviously false teachings, like the teachings of Paul and the Catholic/Christian Church that Jesus was a deicidal atonement for sin, and God in the flesh. Because it's b.s.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
]I love the way you stretch logic, a father and son are not equal, ever.

"For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18)

I see you calling Chester a lesser Christian,

No, you don't. If you did you would have quoted me saying ''lesser Christian" which doesn't qualify as a paraphrase for anything I've said, never mind a quote. Shame, shame on you for fibbing.

yet you don't even believe in the passion of Christ... and worse yet, you call people ignorant who believe in Jesus's actual existence. Are you a Christian or not because you are repeatedly contradicting your self.

I don't believe in the way he believes, but I have not contradicted myself, and again you lack proof or evidence because it's a fib. My beliefs are irrelevant and I don't have to tell you what they are. I say what I feel like saying and don't contradict myself.

This isn't about me or my beliefs but a theory that Paul was a rogue and not a true disciple who created what we know of as Christianity, my beliefs are irrelevant and you are trying to faith shame as if not believing in ''the passion" in a literal sense is hypocrisy or something.

It's not, it's logic.

Me:
(Jesus and God are) Two separate entities,

You:
Not according to Jesus:

"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

You don't get metaphors do you?

They aren't the same person because they are 2 entities, metaphors alluding to a united cause don't change the laws of physics. God was in Heaven when Jesus said that, on earth.

Talk about twisting the meaning to suit your needs, you want people to think that Jesus and God are one and the same but the problem is it was a metaphor and not a literal statement, which is terribly obvious btw.

One in thought, not in essence. Jesus speaks in parables, he is not saying he is the same entity, just that they are united in cause.

Nice try though.

and not every use of father or Father is in the biological sense. King David was also called by Yahweh ''my Son."

The Heavenly Father is not like our biological father, Jesus made this clear when he particularly said my Father in Heaven

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
a reply to: cooperton

States outright that God has knowledge Jesus doesn't. He may have called him his Father, but he also called Him his God and said ''Love God with all your heart" was the greatest commandment.

He called Him His Father because it was the best way for us to understand the relationship between us and God. A Child develops into the inheritance of the Father (John 14:2).

I think I am through here.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: ChesterJohn

lol no... that isn't about Jesus

That passage is about Israel... read the whole chapter

And besides that point... Jesus wasn't called any of those names... Ever

While this is about Israel being redeemed from exile in Babylon the child who "authority rests upon his shoulders" is Cyrus. It makes no sense that he is called Mighty God though because Cyrus was a Monotheist. It could only be metaphorical as it's definitely talking about the Righteous Reign of the Coming King, title given the chapter, of Persia.

Persia through Darius and then Cyrus, the child, liberated the Israelites from Babylon and this is the subject of the prophecy Chester is trying to apply to Jesus.

It definitely didn't apply to Jesus when it was written, I imagine the author knew who he was writing about as it was actually a retrospective prophecy or whatever you would call history written but dated back to appear as though prophecied.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

You can't blame it on him though...

that verse has been thought of as Prophecy for milenia...

its a christian thing.... they had 1800 years to dig though scripture to find any shred of evidence to promote their god

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

come now I answered them you just didn't want to believe the scriptures and accept the answer.

Now you made a claim that Jesus broke all the laws of Moses. You made the claim without any scriptures to back It. I am only asking you paste the verses that showed Jesus Breaking the law. It should be a simple task for one as intelligent as you. And in doing so you will show yourself truthful but so far your integrity is in question.

So now answer which laws other than the Sabbath did Jesus break?

a reply to: Akragon

Jesus is our God.

So when was a child born unto us?

Who will have the governments one day on his shoulders, who is called wonderful, counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting father the Prince of peace?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Actually as you all do believe that something taught longer has more validity than something taught for a only a few years.

i.e. Paul is a Liar, Creator of Christianity, false prophet, anti-Christ and any other anti-Paul teachings.

The biggest problem is not believing the scriptures as they are written leaving it up to you (become god) to say what it "really means" or should say or Doesn't say.

All Hail, the gods of this age Akragon, Matrix, Malocchino and SethTsaddik!

Also, since your argument was that Jesus calling himself the Son of God is the same as calling himself God and though I have already proven this argument to be fallacious I will add this.

You're putting words into my mouth. I purposefully made no comment either way. I said the Jews believed he was equalizing himself with God by calling himself a Son - which I thought makes sense, because I one day will be like my biological father. From my current opinion, he was the gate that leads to the Father - with Whom He is One.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik
a reply to: cooperton

Just in case, besides David, the Sons of God are also mentioned in the OT, but considered angels while human Jesus gets granted (against his wishes) the status of God the Son.

It doesn't translate to "The Son of God", it's "A Son of God"

If Son of God=God then Judaism and Christianity are wildly polytheistic religions and guilty of serious treachery by claiming to be monotheistic, deceiving many. And if the Son of God was a god or God you lose the ethical right to claim Monotheism and denounce polytheism both, no weak counter argument will ever make 3=1, you can call yourself what you wish but a Monotheist the Christian is not.

You're thinking too much, and mixing in man-made beliefs which you set up as a strawman to disprove. But to defend such ideology... Examine the nature of water. It has multiple states - liquid, solid, and gas - yet it is always H2O. So too is the ideology of the trinity.

His Son of God status was acquired at baptism ''This day" whether or not the Prophet knew it was coming (he sounds like he did) is irrelevant because the word of his Father was "This day" that he became his Son.

Huh? He said "This is my Son, The Beloved - In whom I delight"... Never is it implied that was the day he became the Son, and beforehand He was not.

For that matter, few can be called true disciples of the Nazarene.

I agree.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik you are trying to faith shame as if not believing in ''the passion" in a literal sense is hypocrisy or something.

It's not, it's logic.

The entire life of Jesus is nearly erroneous if he was just another prophet. If he truly did die and resurrect without blemish then he was the sacrificial lamb that was foreseen by the prophets of old. You selectively disbelieve certain happenings in the Gospels, which is evident by your incomplete understanding of the meaning of Jesus.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

So don't try saying you were pointing to an analogy between our relationship with God and...whatever AND deny claiming Son of God=God because I remember you saying that S.o.G.=God, it was today.

Ha you're ridiculous. I purposefully did not make a statement either way because I saw you were on a blind tirade. If I truly did say that, you could go find it and quote it, but I didn't so you are being libelous. I am purposefully holding on to my beliefs on the topic because I'd rather not indiscriminately dispense pearls with such a pig in the forum.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

I think I am through here.

You come off as a condescending prick. Humble your self and pray for knowledge.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
You can start with how Elijah got taken up to heaven (before dying, as well), if according to Paul, NO ONE is righteous...no NOT ONE.

Have you ever read Pistis Sophia? From our conversations, I think you'd like it. It's a long read but worth it in my opinion. From Chapter 135 Jesus, talking with Mary Magdalene:

Mary answered and said unto the Saviour: "My Lord, before thou didst come to the region of the rulers and before thou didst come down into the world, hath no soul entered into the Light?"

The Saviour answered and said unto Mary: "Amēn, amēn, I say unto you Before I did come into the world, no soul hath entered into the Light. And now, therefore, when I am come, I have opened the gates of the Light and opened the ways which lead to the Light. And now, therefore, let him who shall do what is worthy of the mysteries, receive the mysteries and enter into the Light."

Mary continued and said: "But, my Lord, I have heard that the prophets have entered into
the Light."

The Saviour continued and said unto Mary: "Amēn, amēn, I say unto you:
No prophet hath entered into the Light; but the rulers of the æons have discoursed with
them out of the æons and given them the mystery of the æons. And when I came to the
regions of the æons, I have turned Elias (Elijah) and sent him into the body of John the Baptizer,
and the rest also I turned into righteous bodies, which will find the mysteries. of the
Light, go on high and inherit the Light-kingdom.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: SethTsaddik you are trying to faith shame as if not believing in ''the passion" in a literal sense is hypocrisy or something.

It's not, it's logic.

The entire life of Jesus is nearly erroneous if he was just another prophet. If he truly did die and resurrect without blemish then he was the sacrificial lamb that was foreseen by the prophets of old. You selectively disbelieve certain happenings in the Gospels, which is evident by your incomplete understanding of the meaning of Jesus.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

So don't try saying you were pointing to an analogy between our relationship with God and...whatever AND deny claiming Son of God=God because I remember you saying that S.o.G.=God, it was today.

Ha you're ridiculous. I purposefully did not make a statement either way because I saw you were on a blind tirade. If I truly did say that, you could go find it and quote it, but I didn't so you are being libelous. I am purposefully holding on to my beliefs on the topic because I'd rather not indiscriminately dispense pearls with such a pig in the forum.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

I think I am through here.

You come off as a condescending prick. Humble your self and pray for knowledge.

You don't want to know how you came off as.


Other than that I would suggest you go back and look at when you accused me of contradicting myself and calling Chester a "lesser Christian" and reflect on how untrue both statements are and then if you still want to complain about me being condescending at least you will know why It seems that way, that I don't react well to outright lies told about me and actually handled it like a gentleman considering.

If you didn't come at me all self righteous because I find it funny that people call Jesus God when he clearly says he isn't several times in fact, denying it outright.