Did Paul Invent Christianity?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Well that is the difference between us i suppose... my "beliefs" have the ability to change through solid means, whereas yours does not have that same ability regardless of what is shown to you... which is blind faith

I believe the book is not the word of God in its entirety but it can be found within.... You believe every word which can leave one open to hypocrisy... racism, bigotry, and outright hatred towards others

Though admittedly you are a strange one with your doctrines of separation

When i speak of "Gods word" i use Jesus alone... You on the other hand will choose Paul over Jesus, and you admitted to this on a few occasions... and in one case even saying you would reject the words in the gospels for Pauls IF you had no other option because apparently you believe Pauls words are for people in this time even though Jesus' words fit the time much better even though most lack in what he actually taught

but in any case... You have been most helpful in showing evidence for the premise of the OP

Paul seems to be the creator of said religion...

It is not a broken record it is called repetition. It is done to drive home a point, one you do not want to believe but your unbelief will not negate the the truth or my faith.

yet somehow you do not realize that everyone reading this thread knows this?

AS i've said previously... using that so called argument over and over does nothing to promote debate or conversation in this thread... I've known a good many Atheists and agnostics that debate the bible very proficiently.... Thus there is no need for belief in said book to put forth a solid argument... Just because you happen to believe all of the book does not mean you have the moral high ground in any of these discussions...

So seriously... change the record...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: ChesterJohn

Well that is the difference between us i suppose... my "beliefs" have the ability to change through solid means, whereas yours does not have that same ability regardless of what is shown to you... which is blind faith

I believe the book is not the word of God in its entirety but it can be found within.... You believe every word which can leave one open to hypocrisy... racism, bigotry, and outright hatred towards others

Though admittedly you are a strange one with your doctrines of separation

When i speak of "Gods word" i use Jesus alone... You on the other hand will choose Paul over Jesus, and you admitted to this on a few occasions... and in one case even saying you would reject the words in the gospels for Pauls IF you had no other option because apparently you believe Pauls words are for people in this time even though Jesus' words fit the time much better even though most lack in what he actually taught

but in any case... You have been most helpful in showing evidence for the premise of the OP

Paul seems to be the creator of said religion...

It is not a broken record it is called repetition. It is done to drive home a point, one you do not want to believe but your unbelief will not negate the the truth or my faith.

yet somehow you do not realize that everyone reading this thread knows this?

AS i've said previously... using that so called argument over and over does nothing to promote debate or conversation in this thread... I've known a good many Atheists and agnostics that debate the bible very proficiently.... Thus there is no need for belief in said book to put forth a solid argument... Just because you happen to believe all of the book does not mean you have the moral high ground in any of these discussions...

So seriously... change the record...

I was going to reply ..but feel no need to now. You nailed.it, Akragon.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Even the Jews wanted to stone him not because of any good work but because he made himself out to be God.

No. He didn't EVER make Himself out to be "God". He even said, out of His OWN mouth...that we were to worship the FATHER AND "HIS GOD"....So apparently JESUS worshipped the MOST HIGH GOD, too. They wanted to stone Him, because He TOLD THE TRUTH of WHO THE MOST HIGH GOD WAS....and it definitely wasn't YHWH.
I have asked REPEATEDLY for SOMEONE on here that is a fundamentalist Christian, to SHOW JUST HOW JESUS UPHELD THE LAW IN ORDER TO FULLFIL IT.

Not ONE person who believes the Bible "infallible" and "inerrant" has taken on that challenge.

Do you think you can, Chester?

Honestly, stop repeating the same ole broken record Psalm...and just ANSWER AND DEFEND that question.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

However it amazes me you use it at all. So my conclusion is to convert people to your way of thinking.

Oh...it's way more than that....I HATE deception. Paul was a master at it. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just sick and tired of people being LIED to.....and becoming an arse to others because they BELIEVE lies.

I have an honest question for you to answer....IF you were a woman, and some jerk apostle told YOU that for you to actually SPEAK in a "congregation" of believers was SHAMEFUL....do you think you might be just a "little" peeved....esp. if you put your whole "heart, mind and soul" into understanding those scriptures....not to mention the "God" of those scriptures??

Oh! And how bout if "said apostle" said that slavery was "ok" and to kiss your slave owners butt, because...you know, that just shows how dedicated to "Christ" you are.
Oh! And lets not forget those "corrupt" government authorities that we are supposed to ALL subject ourselves to...you know, because if we DON'T, then we will face the wrath of God, because all those CORRUPT gov't. institutions were PUT THERE BY HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Seriously dude???!! Are you that ignorant?
Ok....be honest there Chester buddy...be TOTALLY honest.

Well...(ha), guess I replied anyway.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
Well...(ha), guess I replied anyway.

you certainly did lol...

The question now is... will he rebut with the fact that he believes the entire bible is true, infallible, inerrant...


spoken by God... as IF believing a book that wasn't written yet was Jesus' ONLY teaching

OR

Will Chester actually give a proper rebuttal

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor
1) the cultural context must be kept when studying. You are imposing todays feminist and sophism on Paul's writings.

2) there are rules to follow when studying. I have listed them before.

3) perceived deception comes from not keep the context of ALL the scriptures in mind when you study.

I have spent this last year since Lastdays first started this nonsense last December 2015. I have re read all the Bible trough four times. I have only found the differences in Gospels as far as one being the kingdom for Israel and the other being the gospel of the grace of God. What is even more surprising is I find a lot of Paul's teaching to the church build upon the teaching of Christ during his earthly ministry except that it applies to all men alike not just Israel.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

1) the cultural context must be kept when studying. You are imposing todays feminist and sophism on Paul's writings.

I'm imposing nothing of the sort. Paul was a misogynistic jerk, who had major issues not only with women, but sex in general. His whole view of marriage is ridiculous. I mean, according to Paul, you somehow can not be devoted to Christ as well, if you are married to someone...however, (I'll paraphrase)..."it's better to marry than burn with lust". '
Or, how about his view on helping widow's? I mean, according to Paul you shouldn't help them unless they are over 60.
Oh, and to say that those teachings of his only applied to back then is ridiculous, too.
You do know that there are many sects or denominations that hold to the "covering of the woman's head" or the whole "wives submit" is taken waaaay to far by some "Christian men".
All of Paul's goobly gop has done nothing GOOD for women.

2) there are rules to follow when studying. I have listed them before.

Yea, "check your brain and logic at the door" then proceed with blind faith that the book is inerrant, infallible, and preserved.

3) perceived deception comes from not keep the context of ALL the scriptures in mind when you study.

I've already told you, I have read the Bible in "context" just as you...just as many times as you. (for at least 25 years).
It was when I "got out of the religious box" and decided to go with my gut on how much discrepancy I saw between Paul's letters and the teachings and character of Jesus....that those misgivings I had were legitimate.

You still haven't answered the question...."how did Jesus fulfill the law when He obviously broke all of them"?

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: ChesterJohn

1) the cultural context must be kept when studying. You are imposing todays feminist and sophism on Paul's writings.

I'm imposing nothing of the sort. Paul was a misogynistic jerk, who had major issues not only with women, but sex in general. His whole view of marriage is ridiculous. I mean, according to Paul, you somehow can not be devoted to Christ as well, if you are married to someone...however, (I'll paraphrase)..."it's better to marry than burn with lust". '
Or, how about his view on helping widow's? I mean, according to Paul you shouldn't help them unless they are over 60.
Oh, and to say that those teachings of his only applied to back then is ridiculous, too.
You do know that there are many sects or denominations that hold to the "covering of the woman's head" or the whole "wives submit" is taken waaaay to far by some "Christian men".
All of Paul's goobly gop has done nothing GOOD for women.

2) there are rules to follow when studying. I have listed them before.

Yea, "check your brain and logic at the door" then proceed with blind faith that the book is inerrant, infallible, and preserved.

3) perceived deception comes from not keep the context of ALL the scriptures in mind when you study.

I've already told you, I have read the Bible in "context" just as you...just as many times as you. (for at least 25 years).
It was when I "got out of the religious box" and decided to go with my gut on how much discrepancy I saw between Paul's letters and the teachings and character of Jesus....that those misgivings I had were legitimate.

You still haven't answered the question...."how did Jesus fulfill the law when He obviously broke all of them"?

This made me laugh, I find your method of truth bombing accurate and funny.

Paul also said that he deserved to be paid for his "labors" using the art of sophistry to justify it (ChesterJohn, sophisms are Paul's method of teaching, he doesn't have any real knowledge).

"Do not call anyone on earth your father, for One is your Father, He is in Heaven."(Matthew 23:9)

Jesus said that. Paul said:

"For I became your father." (1 Corinthians 4:15

"If anyone else has reason in to be confident in the flesh,I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, BLAMELESS.(Philippians3:4-6)

This short excerpt has Paul simultaneously boasting of his blamelessness in the law he calls a curse while defending his persecution that was death and imprisonment of the faithful of the Way by declaring himself blameless, righteous and more confident than anyone ''in the flesh."

Matthew 5:33-37 Concerning oaths

"Again, you have heard it said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not swear falsley, but carry the vows you've made to the Lord.' But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it's the throne of God, or by the earth, for it's His footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it's the city of the great King. And don't swear by your head, for you can't make one hair white or black. Let your word be 'Yes' or 'No', anything more than this comes from the evil one."

Ok, we can state with 100% certainty that Jesus said oaths or swearing on or by anything at all but especially God, I would say, is "OF THE EVIL ONE."

Let's see what Paul has to say:

Galatians 1:20

" In what I am writing you before God, I do not lie."

"Do not swear at all" is what Jesus said but here is Paul swearing to or ''before God" rather than just writing it or saying just plain yes.

Who suspected he was lying? Or did he anticipate that they'd realize he was a liar and think by invoking God he sounded more believable?

Not to anyone taught in the Asian countries by the apostles.

This letter convicts him of being ''of the evil one" according to Jesus.

Considering that Christ is a creation whose power comes from the Father and never claimed to be God or equal to I find this next statement attributed to Paul to be the MOST ironic statement ever.

Romans 1:25

"..., because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creation rather than the Creator,..."

The reason it's ironic is because Paul calls himself a slave or servant of a Christ he never met and is responsible for his deification.

Because of Paul people think Jesus is God and believe in a trinity of Gods that makes them polytheistic but the concept of one God is so important they lie and say 3=1 and people believe it.

Without the Pauline letters the Trinity has no foundation in scripture.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

This made me laugh, I find your method of truth bombing accurate and funny.

Why thank you ..my sarcastic side comes out when it comes to Paul. I can't stand him. I can't tell you how many Christian women said their first initial "gut reaction" to reading Paul's letters, was "man, this guy is arrogant". Some of these women were pastor's wives.
However, staying in the "church environment" and having it drilled into them from all directions that the Bible is "inerrant, infallible, and preserved"...just made them fall in line like a dang Stepford wife. So sad. They should have gone with their gut.


Oh....and you definitely write great posts yourself.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Have you met Paul face to face?

It is difficult to make such pointed accusation of someone you never met. Nothing in any of his writings would indicate he is either a jerk or a misogynist.

Paul's view on sex is that it be with a spouse only i.e. married. I think Jesus would agree with that.

When studying the bible one must keep certain rules per se so as not to misunderstand or misinterpret what is being said. We need to remember all scriptures fall into three distinct contexts 1) historical, 2) doctrinal and 3) spiritual. You can determine these by asking questions of any section you are studying. There are seven question you can ask of any Bible verse or section of verses i.e. who, what, when, why, where, which and how.

When I do a deep study using this I usually will make charts in a notebook and place seven columns with the heading of the seven questions. This allows me to see the seven questions of the subject easier. This helps me to find the context of the issues of marriage, widows, fellowship, teaching, God head, personal responsibility, calling, gifts, authority, ect ect. ect.

After I find the context and determine if it is applicable for my life today, I develop an application for my walk in Christ.

Faith is never blind, not even to the blind. I stepped out in faith that Jesus would get us a house, I found a 3 bedroom ranch house on 1.3 acres of land in a few days, bid on it, won the bid, the money came as needed for the earnest and payment. And today I and my family have been in the house 3 months now paying $650 a month for 7 years to pay of the loan that was given me. It is titled in my name no one can take it away the loan came from another Christian via their equity account. So faith is not something someone does blindly.

We differ in that I believe Paul's writings are inspired of God and you do not. I believe the AV is the preserved word of God in English you don't. You don't believe in any Bible is preserved, thereby you don't believe God kept his word to preserve his words to every generation forever as he states through inspiration to David who penned God's words for us to have today.

I don't know what to say about your study. We deffinately disagree on the issue of Paul and his writings. I assure you I am in no religious box. You have seen me post many times how unorthodoxed I am when it comes to the Bible. I can't learn from pastors at churches because most of them only teach milk, once and a while they hit a good one but it is rare.

Concerning going with your gut. That is known as a "feeling" feelings are never good to do anything by.

Do you really believe Jesus broke the law of Moses?

I am assuming you meant the law of Moses. I was looking earlier for the question you wanted me to answer but I never found it. I did see a statement that said

No. He didn't EVER make Himself out to be "God". He even said, out of His OWN mouth...that we were to worship the FATHER AND "HIS GOD"....So apparently JESUS worshipped the MOST HIGH GOD, too. They wanted to stone Him, because He TOLD THE TRUTH of WHO THE MOST HIGH GOD WAS....and it definitely wasn't YHWH.
I have asked REPEATEDLY for SOMEONE on here that is a fundamentalist Christian, to SHOW JUST HOW JESUS UPHELD THE LAW IN ORDER TO FULLFIL IT.

Not ONE person who believes the Bible "infallible" and "inerrant" has taken on that challenge.

Do you think you can, Chester?

Honestly, stop repeating the same ole broken record Psalm...and just ANSWER AND DEFEND that question.

So I quote your question above just to be clear however it is not the same as the statement.

Matrixsurvivor"how did Jesus fulfill the law when He obviously broke all of them"?

Outward appearances are deceiving. In every instance of his supposed breaking the Sabbath which was outwardly but spiritually he did not break it.

Lu 14:1 ¶ And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.
3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go;
5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
6 And they could not answer him again to these things.

So I will ask you, "Other than the Sabbath, what other laws did Jesus break?"

Keeping in mind we are talking about the law of Moses.

originally posted by: SethTsaddik

Without the Pauline letters the Trinity has no foundation in scripture.

I have yet to find the word trinity anywhere in the Bible.

But I did find this

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

a reply to: Akragon


I have no doctrine of separation. Let's make it more accurate I hold to "The doctrine of right division of the word of truth"

Well if you use Jesus words only then you have to get rid of the Old Testament, most of the New Testament except Revelation, and even then you would have to get rid of most of the book of Revelation as well.

Where Paul's words agree with Jesus words then they are applicable for today. Most were teachings to Jews preparing them to live in the Kingdom. Which has not come yet.

A religion was created by Jesus when he called Paul and set him on his mission to testify of the gospel of the grace of God.

I believe that when God postponed his dealing with Israel. (calling those who were invited to the feast to come and they made excuses, so He is now calling those who are not on the invite list). So He gave expanded wisdom based on his teachings and works to Paul. The gospel talk about Jesus as the Lamb of God, the lamb was a sacrifice. in those four gospel books we learn his life would be given for many. Paul merely expands on it via inspiration of God that Jesus died for our sins a sacrifice once for all if believed on. Jesus prays about how he and the father are one and that he wants us to be one with him and each other. Paul expanded on that teaching and we have the Body of Christ and the indwelling of not just the Holy Ghost but the fullness of the Godhead.

Because of the expanse of time from then to now those expanded teachings given to Paul were necessary.

I have been since last December when Lastdays first started talking about this issue over Paul. I have intensely been studying the Four Gospels and Act and all of Paul's teachings. I have found that he and Jesus agree on many things and you can find direct cross references from Jesus to Paul's teachings. More than I thought.

The video never gives any real proof Paul created it, but the Christian religion is guided by the inspired teachings of Paul, we could say he started it but he did not create it. The true Christian religion is based on JESUS CHRIST not Paul. Remember Paul and Barnabas first called them Christians in Antioch Ceasarea but all the teachings are of Jesus Christ and how men who believe on Jesus ought to live and act in this world until Christ comes..

But Today's money hungry Christian Religious organizations was not in any of Paul's writings.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

It is difficult to make such pointed accusation of someone you never met. Nothing in any of his writings would indicate he is either a jerk or a misogynist.

Are you serious? Telling a woman it's "shameful" for her to speak in the congregation (oh, and she should wait and ask her husband at home??) If you can't see how derogatory that statement is, then I don't know what else to tell ya. Besides,
most churches just scoot that little commandment from Paul under the rug, and go on about their "churchy" business....which is what churches are, by the way, a BUSINESS. Paul said many more things concerning women (seems he had a "box" to put them in).

Jesus did not treat women that way. Women were drawn to Him and wanted to sit at His feet and learn. Paul's personality is just downright repulsive. I don't have to have ever met him in person....I can tell just by his letters what type of character he has.

Faith is never blind, not even to the blind. I stepped out in faith that Jesus would get us a house, I found a 3 bedroom ranch house on 1.3 acres of land in a few days, bid on it, won the bid, the money came as needed for the earnest and payment. And today I and my family have been in the house 3 months now paying $650 a month for 7 years to pay of the loan that was given me. It is titled in my name no one can take it away the loan came from another Christian via their equity account. So faith is not something someone does blindly.

Um, ok. So, you were trusting JESUS to find you those things....not PAUL. Have I once said not to trust in Jesus?? I have only pointed out that Paul was a false apostle, among many other things.

Do you really believe Jesus broke the law of Moses?

I believe Jesus taught that the whole LAW (which would be the 10 commandments) could be summed up into TWO...Love God and love others.

YHWH had some seriously nitpicky laws....and women and animals came up with the short end of the stick.

Have you not noticed how Jesus reached out to ALL Those YHWH would exclude or consider "unclean" or "deserving of death"? (here, let me help you.....lepers, dead people, the lame and deformed, sinners, adulterers, etc....).
So, how why was that ok for Jesus to do, when if His Father was YHWH....and YHWH demanded certain things (like poor animals being sacrificed) or people being cut off from their people....HOW did Jesus get around that and STILL FULFILL the law of YHWH???

Concerning going with your gut. That is known as a "feeling" feelings are never good to do anything by.

Huh....I disagree. Trusting my "gut" has been the thing that's led me to more truth...not trusting my gut (or ignoring it, has kept me in deception).

Outward appearances are deceiving. In every instance of his supposed breaking the Sabbath which was outwardly but spiritually he did not break it.

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery."

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

Proverbs 6:32 "But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself." He destroys himself by being put to death as shown above.

Leviticus 21:9 "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." Why should only a daughter of a priest gets burnt to death if she profanes herself? Why can't this law apply to all daughters?

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." This doesn't make any sense what so ever! Why should the woman get her hands cut off for defending her husband? It's not like she was cheating on him or anything like that!


Ok...so JESUS didn't stone the adulteress (kinda funny those religious leaders couldn't seem to find the man and bring him to be stoned, too).

a reply to: ChesterJohn

But Today's money hungry Christian Religious organizations was not in any of Paul's writings.

Except for when he quoted Deuteronomy 25:4 out of CONTEXT in Corinthians 9:9, in order to promote being PAID by those he brought "his gospel" to (or his converts as well).
Paul was constantly asking for money.
Jesus said, "freely you have received...freely give".

a reply to: ChesterJohn

but the Christian religion is guided by the inspired teachings of Paul, we could say he started it but he did not create it. The true Christian religion is based on JESUS CHRIST not Paul.

How many churches or homegroups have you been in? Now, how much do those places lean on Paul's teachings over Jesus'?
Paul is the main person taught from...and even you take Paul's gospel over Jesus' Kingdom gospel.
So, how can you truthfully say that you are following Jesus, when the person you cling to the most is Paul?
Besides, Jesus didn't come here to put a lying Pharisee in charge of His teachings...Jesus came to speak the TRUTH. That was His whole mission. Don't believe me? Then go reread His answer to Pilate on WHY He came.
Do you know what that TRUTH was, Chester? Not Paul's....but Jesus'?
Jesus also didn't come to start some new religion called "Christianity", and in keeping with Akragon's question in the OP,
YES....Paul is the founder and instigator of Christianity. HE was even the one who called those who followed HIM (Paul)....Christians, starting in Antioch.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Chester, you need to go with Christ. the reason why you are so angry is because you love Paul and he was a false prophet and con artist.

All you need is the real deal, Jesus and those chosen by Jesus and taught by Jesus and Paul doesn't qualify. He claims to have secret visions but that is impossible to prove, ridiculous to believe.

Go. With. Christ. Go with Christ.