Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's

a reply to: DJW001

I will remember you again:
A short-term boarder violation can never be a pretext for an attack.

And how many times Turky violate Greek airspace? 2244 just in 2014.


let's recall NATO and Erdogan double standard again:
In a statement, NATO's 28 members said:
«the shooting down of the plane was "unacceptable" and they stood together with Turkey "in the spirit of strong solidarity".»

Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said:
"It is another example of the Syrian authorities' disregard for international norms"
source

a reply to: Xcathdra

Were they bombing Turkmen those other times? Did any of their planes get shot down those other times?

It seems that Russia is stepping up thier airstrikes, which now have fighter escorts.
Also the Russians are moving in warships which are using cruise missles to attack the area of the downed jet.
The Russians are bringing in some advanced missle systems for shooting down enemy fighters. . . .

I think Turkey has called the latest Russian attack on the aid convoy an act of war.
I am guessing that NATO will try to use Turkey and border areas around Turkey as a no fly zone for Syrian refugees/human shields. If I was a civilian I would do my utmost to get out of Syria as well as Turkey right now. . . .

If nukes start going off on the Turkish border any civilians who decide to live in that area will most likely be killed or badly maimed.

a reply to: majesticgent

No those other times resulted in the use of force warning that russia ignored.

a reply to: voyger2

That's called diplomacy. They try to de-escalate.
It is more like saying "cem it wasn't right to take Pavel s lolly, Pavel you should have shared with cem."

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

NATO is not involved. Turkey has to invoke article V.

First:


Now:
Erdogan: We’ll continue shooting down violating planes

if another violation of our aerial border happens, we can respond in the same way

I think if there is a party that needs to apologize, it is not us,
those who violated our airspace are the ones who need to apologize.

It's better to start apologizing the greeks


And even the Syrians:

a reply to: voyger2

let's recall NATO and Erdogan double standard again:
In a statement, NATO's 28 members said:
«the shooting down of the plane was "unacceptable" and they stood together with Turkey "in the spirit of strong solidarity".»

Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said:
"It is another example of the Syrian authorities' disregard for international norms"

It is not hypocritical to change your policies. Russia and Syria have been fighting dirty. Syria shot down a Turkish plane that was not making any hostile maneuvers, then fired upon the search and rescue team. Russia and Syria have been deliberately violating the airspace of Turkey and other NATO member states. This is a provocation, and a provocation, however brief, can justify an attack. The rebels fired at the Russian search and rescue copter because Syria has made it clear that it considers those to be the new rules of engagement.

Russia is being hypocritical: they have intentionally ordered their pilots to violate NATO airspace, whereas they would not hesitate to fire on any aircraft that entered theirs. In fact, their support for the rebels who shot down MH-17 is proof of this.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

If nukes start going off on the Turkish border any civilians who decide to live in that area will most likely be killed or badly maimed.

Why would nukes go off on the Turkish border? (BTW: I notice you have started sounding more compassionate towards the people caught up in the bombing. Thank you.)

a reply to: angryhulk

It's only of topic if there is one reason and one reason only for the action. And we pretty much all know there are more than one.

Even Norad Commander / General says it on FOX News that Turky was wrong:

insider.foxnews.com... /24/lt-gen-mcinerney-turkey-shooting-down-russian-plane-was-very-bad-mistake

a reply to: svetlana84

Are you referring to this? To what a commentator who is a former NORAD commander said? Two days ago?

He said it was a mistake. Not wrong. Slight difference there. In addition, he probably has about as many facts as the people in this thead do. Virtually none.

originally posted by: svetlana84
Even Norad Commander / General says it on FOX News that Turky was wrong:

insider.foxnews.com... /24/lt-gen-mcinerney-turkey-shooting-down-russian-plane-was-very-bad-mistake

Erm, McInernery is an idiot. His job is to make people afraid so that Congress will authorize wasteful defense spending. Here is one of his finest moments:

originally posted by: DJW001
It is not hypocritical to change your policies.

Yes it is, if the principle for the change is always in your favour! None of that happened here.

originally posted by: DJW001
Russia and Syria have been fighting dirty.

That is your subjective opinion and not a fact. Also everyone could say the same about Turkey!

originally posted by: DJW001
Syria shot down a Turkish plane that was not making any hostile maneuvers, then fired upon the search and rescue team.

Russian wasn't also perfoming hostile maneuvers against Turkey. Russian was also fired upon rescue.

originally posted by: DJW001
Russia and Syria have been deliberately violating the airspace of Turkey and other NATO member states. This is a provocation, and a provocation, however brief, can justify an attack.

deliberately violating And this is fact? It can't be because you don't know. Besides Turkey violates 2244 time Greece airspace, is it deliberate also? Should this mean you may shot down an airplane? Well, in case of Greece they can consider that...

originally posted by: DJW001
Russia is being hypocritical: they have intentionally ordered their pilots to violate NATO airspace, whereas they would not hesitate to fire on any aircraft that entered theirs.

Again more and more subjective opinion, because you don't know anyones intentions...maybe greeks could guess about turkey's..

Maybe this will be the Russian - " Shock and Awe ! "Mr. Putin called Turkey as a terror state ...

Sound familiar ?

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Oh for heaven's sakes, STOP with all the talk of nukes! No one is going to be using nukes on anyone! Period. Just NOT going to happen; not the Russians, not the Turkish and certainly not the Syrians.

The video you posted about nukes is several years old. It's not like it's something which happened yesterday in response to this dispute, despite your attempting to make it appear this way. Secondly, Turkey is not allowed to use any of the nukes appropriated to them without NATO approval, and NATO has given no such approval...nor have they even contemplated it!

Talking about nukes being used in this conflict is just silly and foolish! Really!

Sheesh...sometimes I think folks on here actively want someone to start nuking someone else out of some kind of morbid doom-porn curiousity.

Just stop already!

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: majesticgent

No those other times resulted in the use of force warning that russia ignored.

You know why right? Russia wasn't bombing their allies the Turkmen or Turkish convoys.

Maybe..This is gona be totally of topic... but I want to share a memory ...



Out of the ruins
Out from the wreckage
Can't make the same mistake this time
We are the children
The last generation
We are the ones they left behind
And I wonder when we are ever gonna change it
Living under the fear 'till nothing else remains
We don't need another hero
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond, the Thunderdome
Looking for something we can rely on
There's got to be something better out there: Love and compassion
Their day is coming
All else are castles built in the air
And I wonder when we are ever gonna change it
Living under the fear 'till nothing else remains
All the children say: We don´t need another hero
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond, the Thunderdome
So, what do we do with our lives?
We leave only a mark!
Will our story shine like a light? Or end in the dark?
Give it all or nothing
We don´t need another hero...
thank you for your patience

a reply to: voyger2

Yes it is, if the principle for the change is always in your favour! None of that happened here.

I don't understand your point. Policies are always going to be made to favor whoever makes them.

That is your subjective opinion and not a fact. Also everyone could say the same about Turkey!

In your subjective opinion, is the use of barrel bombs against civilians fighting fair? Is firing on a search and rescue team fighting fair? Can you see how tactics like that might cause a change in policy?

Russian wasn't also perfoming hostile maneuvers against Turkey. Russian was also fired upon rescue.

But they were attacking Turkmen, who are ethnically Turks. What would Russia do if a Ukrainian plane that had been bombing ethnic Russians strayed into Russian airspace? The Russians rescue helicopter was fired upon because that was in line with the rules of engagement that Syria has established.

deliberately violating And this is fact? It can't be because you don't know.

You're right. The Russian air force may be so incredibly incompetent that Russian pilots never have a clue where they are.

Besides Turkey violates 2244 time Greece airspace, is it deliberate also? Should this mean you may shot down an airplane? Well, in case of Greece they can consider that...

Completely irrelevant. The Turkey-Greece dispute has to do with disagreement over where the border is.

Again more and more subjective opinion, because you don't know anyones intentions...maybe greeks could guess about turkey's..

So you honestly believe that the Russian air force is completely incompetent? They keep heading straight for other countries' airspace by accident?

originally posted by: DJW001
I don't understand your point. Policies are always going to be made to favor whoever makes them.

So it is Hypocritycal. Not fair and doesn't call for equal treatment. If you are such a person. You shoul be ashamed (IMO). Maybe you could start changing your moto on the bottom of your post's.

originally posted by: DJW001
is the use of barrel bombs against civilians fighting fair?

Where did Russia did that ?

originally posted by: DJW001
Is firing on a search and rescue team fighting fair?

Where did Russia did that ?

originally posted by: DJW001
Can you see how tactics like that might cause a change in policy?

No, I can't, at least to Russia. I can't.

originally posted by: DJW001
But they were attacking Turkmen, who are ethnically Turks.

So the reason to shot down was that? not the boarder issue? Who are these guys by the way? For what >I can see they were shoting at Russian airplanes. We have seen they destroying a Russian Helicopter and killing in the air a Russian pilot. But who are these guys? Are they also FSA, Al-queda, ISIS etc etc ... Russian have been asking for information about terrorists to the coalition... and what happened? nothing of course! Who is supporting those meshed rebel/terrorist guys?

originally posted by: DJW001
What would Russia do if a Ukrainian plane that had been bombing ethnic Russians strayed into Russian airspace? The Russians rescue helicopter was fired upon because that was in line with the rules of engagement that Syria has established.

You scenario doesn't apply, because it doesn't exist. Russia is not Syria. Don't get confused!

originally posted by: DJW001
Completely irrelevant. The Turkey-Greece dispute has to do with disagreement over where the border is.

You're statement is very amazing and hypocritical, because you are pushing with Syrian rules of engagemen to me and know you say Turkey-Greece Completely irrelevant.

originally posted by: DJW001
So you honestly believe that the Russian air force is completely incompetent? They keep heading straight for other countries' airspace by accident?

I don't know nothing about that, you're the one who is saying it.