Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's

originally posted by: Belgianbloke

originally posted by: asen_y2k
RT link regarding dead pilot. In the non sensored version I saw, head is bloody indicating execution on the ground.

link(sensored but still grafic)

Was my first thought as well, but that's just speculation really.

Yes i agree, I am speculating. But still we have photographic evidence of two parachutes after ejection. Which shows a high probability of the pilots surviving the hit on their aircraft.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Russia, in either version, should have responded to warnings. Russia does not deny the warnings, they don't claim to have responded.

Thing is Turkey wants to expand to north of Syria (remember when Turkey started fighting with the Kurds in north east of Syria by "Korbani") .Then they used the refugees problem to establish a buffer zone. This buffer zone that Turkey wants, is recognized only by Turkey. Anyone that operates in Syria it is considered Syrian airspace. So the warnings from the Turkish planes would have been ignored by the Russian pilot.

So technically Turkey shot down a Russian plane in Syrian airspace.

Regards

Seed

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Russia is playing it down because they violated turkish airspace. Turkey released their evidence.. I am waiting on russia to release theirs.

Lets see what comes up at the UN.

Also since some people dont understand NATO or article V - its defensive only. Turkey cant start a war with russia and then invoke article V. Article V only applies when a NATO member is attacked.

It looks like Turkey will Call for NATOs article 5 now. So i dont think Turkey wants to play this Down.

As I understand it, they cannot invoke Article V when they attacked a plane. Russia would need to attack Turkey in response to this before they even have a hope of invoking it. This was not a defensive measure by Turkey, the plane was clearly not a threat. NATO would probably want to put this down to "misunderstanding" before spending some time rethinking their relationship with Turkey as a result of this incident.

And this might be why Russia is attempting to suggest that this plane was shot down by a land-based missile and not a jet. The Russian media (which is heavily controlled by the Kremlin, remember) is suggesting this was a rebel attack and not Turkish fighters. This probably means that they have given Turkey an opportunity to back down, but Turkey has not taken it.

Either way this does not look good for Turkey.
Whether Turkey did shoot it down or not, their actions here have been threatening to all NATO members. We cannot trust Turkey to act responsibly or rationally, and as they seem to be willing to try to cause a larger conflict between NATO and Russia (and during a period of cooperation over IS!) they should be dealt with by NATO immediately.

Turkey needs to be told that it no longer has the support of NATO members.

a reply to: Xcathdra

First Russia Violating Turkey airspace has to be proven.
Second should Israeli airplanes be shot down everyt time they violate Syrian arispace?
Third should we risk a world war because of a violation of airspace?

Edit:
Turkey violate Greek Airspace more than 1000 times annually, but that seems to be ignored ! Should turkey airplanes been shot down?
Turkish jets violated Greek airspace 1,017 times

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: asen_y2k
RT link regarding dead pilot. In the non sensored version I saw, head is bloody indicating execution on the ground.

link(sensored but still grafic)

Please point out where it says the pilot was executed on the ground. You should stop making stuff up.


Has it ever occurred to you the injuries occurred when the plane was hit and exploded?

I am not making things up. I am speculation what could have happened from all the photographic evidence we have at the moment. There is a high propability of an execution here.

I just wanted to mention it. I come from Greece.

Turkey violate Greek Airspace more than 1000 times annually, but that seems to be ignored !
Turkish jets violated Greek airspace 1,017 times

Double Standards by some ?

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: RUSSO

If Russia doesnt want a war then they should not violate Turkish airspace.

briefly then left...

Briefly does not matter. They violated Turkish airspace. Even you and others admit it yet try to pass it off as something its not. How many times was Russia warned in October bu turkey? How many times was the Russian ambassador summoned?

Russia knew what would happen if it violated turkish airspace. The fault is with Russia.

[
NATO gave Turkey the green light. So if Russia responds Turkey can definitely invoke Art 5.

Really ?

Where is the hard copy of that edict ... ?

The worst happening here is russia puting turky on economic & trade sanctions. My opinion, dont shoot me

originally posted by: voyger2
a reply to: Xcathdra

First Russia Violating Turkey airspace has to be proven.
Second should Israeli airplanes be shot down every time they violate Syrian airspace?

Or the US planes, or the French or Saudi's etc etc...

Fact is all these nations are violating Syrian airspace ( which everyone is conveniently forgetting )
So far Russia is the only nation allowed by Assad's regime to carry out airstrikes.

But you know double standards and all.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: RUSSO

If Russia doesnt want a war then they should not violate Turkish airspace.

briefly then left...

Briefly does not matter. They violated Turkish airspace. Even you and others admit it yet try to pass it off as something its not. How many times was Russia warned in October bu turkey? How many times was the Russian ambassador summoned?

Russia knew what would happen if it violated turkish airspace. The fault is with Russia.

The jet was downed in Syria.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Don’t want to be rude but its up to the mods to decide what on topic and what’s not.


The point I am trying to make is if Turkey are supporting ISIS and that convoy was going to meet terrorists then Turkey becomes a legitimate target.

If war breaks out between Turkey and Russia thats fair enough.


But NATO should not back Turkey on this. Turkey should have cleaned its own house. The fact they haven’t and they got Russian bombers circling them like vultures is there own dam fault.


Lesson: Don’t support Terrorist groups.

originally posted by: Laxus
I just wanted to mention it. I come from Greece.

Turkey violate Greek Airspace more than 1000 times annually, but that seems to be ignored !
Turkish jets violated Greek airspace 1,017 times

Double Standards by some ?

Nope, its a chess game. Turkey was looking for a opportunity to hit a Russian jet. Why? No idea yet. This very minor air soace violation gave them the opportunity. And now they are not letting Russia downplay the incident too.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
Okay, now you're just being deliberately misleading.
There is no indication at all that this Russian jet was targeting anything Turkish AT ALL.

I don't think so, the mere act of pulling out a gun does not mean you are targeting the person yelling stop. The plane is a weapon, like a gun.

It made the stupid choice to fly into Turkish airspace, but then it left. Turkey was not under any threat here.

My scenario does not say the person is under threat, only the possibility of threat, which I think mirrors this case. My scenario does not say the person pointed the weapon at them (direct threat) only that they had one.

Believe me, I find it incredibly hard to defend anything Russia does, but in this case there is absolutely no denying that Turkey was in the wrong. They have just risked triggering a larger conflict, dragging all our NATO nations into it, all because they want to prove some kind of point?

Perhaps the US backed Turkey and urged them to do it, and the US wanted to make a point.

At the start of this, when the information we had was suggesting that this was shot down over Turkish airspace, I was willing to say that Russia was in the wrong, but as Turkey has now shown its own evidence that the plane WAS NOT in its airspace, NOT on a heading to continue into its airspace, and NOT targeting any Turkish assets, there is absolutely no excuse for Turkey to abandon all diplomatic channels and start firing on that plane.

Again, I am no fan of Russia or Putin, my posting record backs that up, but I am not willing to deny reality just because of my distrust of Putin. Russia messed up, but Turkey has just risked taking us all into a massive conflict - there is no excuse at all for that.

The plane having left the airspace does not mean it's not hostile, that would be discovered by answering the warnings and responding. I am not a fan of Turkey, and think they need to stop playing both sides and figure out who they are and what they stand for.

a reply to: Belgianbloke

It is black and white. Turkey told russia to stop vio9lating its airspace and russia didnt listen.

originally posted by: Laxus
I just wanted to mention it. I come from Greece.

Turkey violate Greek Airspace more than 1000 times annually, but that seems to be ignored !
Turkish jets violated Greek airspace 1,017 times

Double Standards by some ?

Thats doesnt fit the narrative though

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Russia knew what would happen if it violated turkish airspace. The fault is with Russia.

Typicall twist of agressors guilt.

The victim of really agression becomes the agressor and the agressor the victim.
Actally it was turkey who shot down an airplane not the opposite.

NATO calls for an extraordinary meeting

Reports of Nato 'extraordinary meeting' for Allies to be 'informed of downing of Russian plane' AFP news agency is reporting that Nato has called an "extraordinary meeting" after the shooting down of the Russian jet. "At the request of Turkey, the North Atlantic Council will hold an extraordinary meeting at 16:00 GMT. The aim of this extraordinary NAC is for Turkey to inform Allies about the downing of a Russian airplane," an alliance official told AFP. This is the first time a Nato member's armed forces have downed a Russian or Soviet military aircraft since the 1950s, according to the Reuters news agency.

originally posted by: Timely
[
NATO gave Turkey the green light. So if Russia responds Turkey can definitely invoke Art 5.

Really ?

Where is the hard copy of that edict ... ?


It came from October when russia violated turkish airspace and turkey invoked article IV.

a reply to: voyger2

After in entered turkish airspace.