Turkey shot down Russian Jet: reportedly by two F16's

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: asen_y2k

That it violated Turkish airspace?

Yes it violated Turkish airspace and was shot while it was inside Syria.

Then the shootdown was valid. Turkey made it very clear the last time Russia violated its airspace. If Russia is using top of the line technology they should know where they are at.

I disagree entirely, and as a critic of Putin.
While it can be said that Russia had plenty of warnings about not flying into Turkish airspace, no rational nation actually fires on a plane like this unless there is clear evidence of nefarious activity.

I'm sorry but Turkey is absolutely in the wrong here. They knew its heading, they knew it was now out of their airspace, and they then fired on it knowing full well that a NATO nation firing on Russia had the potential to trigger a larger conflict.

No sane and rational government would make such a ridiculous decision knowing the plane was not a threat to them, no matter how many times they gave a "final warning". The consequences of this were massively dangerous (and still are) and it means that Turkey should be removed from the NATO alliance without question.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?

And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.

And it also shows the violation.

A violation not worth causing a world war over.

Agreed... Russia should stop violating turkish airspace then.

originally posted by: angryhulk
You're saying that now because more information has been released detailing a journey through Turkish airspace, but you did not say that before because I was not asking about Turkish airspace, I was asking about Syrian airspace, your answer was simply no because that was the correct answer. Russia do not have to respond to Turkey outside of Turkish airspace. By law they do not need to respond. Who cares about common sense and stupidity...

Anyway, given they HAD entered Turkish airspace, briefly, our discussion is different.

You misread. I said from the start I was going under the assumption Russia entered Turkish airspace. If facts came out to dispute this, I was open to change my opinion.

You then replied talking specifically about Syrian airspace only, which has nothing to do with my post talking about Turkish airspace being violated.

Either way we can move on.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?

And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.

And it also shows the violation.

A violation not worth causing a world war over.

Agreed... Russia should stop violating turkish airspace then.

Sure and Turkey needs to start cracking down on the people funding and tradeing with ISIS and other terrorist groups

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?

And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.

And it also shows the violation.

For which Warnings were issued...for Five minutes, Apparently.

So that's like telling someone to put their hands up and when they do shooting them anyways...lol

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?

And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.

Lol, they haven't been asked to leave. They have been warned not to enter. They ignored the warnings, as can be seen on the radar data. It was pretty much over at the moment they violated the border.

So you shoot them when they leave, correct? Very strange policy.

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?

And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.

And it also shows the violation.

I think shooting a Russian plane in Syrian airspace is also a violation.

It just proves Turkey was looking for a chance to down a Russian plane, no matter how small it is. Russia just gave them one.

I think that is likely, since they asked NATO for permission, and NATO gave Turkey permission to do so.

originally posted by: ken10

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?

And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.

And it also shows the violation.

For which Warnings were issued...for Five minutes, Apparently.

So that's like telling someone to put their hands up and when they do shooting them anyways...lol

No, it's like telling them to put their hands up when they pull out a gun and shooting them when they keep going, ignoring you the whole time. Putting their hands up in this situation would have been not entering Turkish airspace.

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?

And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.

Lol, they haven't been asked to leave. They have been warned not to enter. They ignored the warnings, as can be seen on the radar data. It was pretty much over at the moment they violated the border.

So you shoot them when they leave, correct? Very strange policy.

No, I'll tell the missile to stop and come back...

There's violation of airspace that poses a clear a present danger to that sovereign nations' national security and there's violation of airspace that does not pose a clear a present danger to that sovereign nations' national security.

Going by the flight path data of the downed jet released by the Turkish authorities and also given that the Russian jet:

a) Was on a ISIS bombing campaign in Syria.
b) Violated Turkish airspace, for a brief period, during the campaign.

I would question the validity of the decision by Turkish authorities to take the action that they did.

Unless of course, the Turkish authorities have evidence that the Russian Jet posed an immediate, clear and present danger whilst in their airspace, it is my opinion that the Turkish authorities either acted in haste (and hence was an error in judgement) or they knew exactly what they were doing, and may have even been instructed to do so.

This now makes me think that Turkey is a financial backer of ISIS as this act has clearly assisted ISIS inasfar that ISIS is no longer being bombed by the Jet - thanks to the direct actions of Turkish authorities.

a reply to: asen_y2k

Indeed good question. Some have suggested Daesh sympathisers ...

( it is ATS ) ...

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: asen_y2k

That it violated Turkish airspace?

Yes it violated Turkish airspace and was shot while it was inside Syria.

Were the F-16 inside Syrian airspace when they shot the SU24 Down?

The radar track published by Turkey does not show that. Check it out.

Here is a larger Turkish radar image from Oct.

Here is the same radar image today but at a smaller scale.

It looks like the F-16 (the whiteflight path flew right up to the Syrian boarder to engage the SUs.

Yes I saw that, but it is not confirmed that that is the track of the F16, moreover they say there were 2 F16, track shows just one.

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?

And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.

Lol, they haven't been asked to leave. They have been warned not to enter. They ignored the warnings, as can be seen on the radar data. It was pretty much over at the moment they violated the border.

So you shoot them when they leave, correct? Very strange policy.

No, I'll tell the missile to stop and come back...

I assume then you know when the missile was fired?

Lmao imagine :
Russia had intel that a turkey convoy was headed to ISIS with weapons and personnel and they send 2 planes to check it out.

Not out of the realm of possibility's I suppose.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: asen_y2k

If Russia was in the right they would not e downplaying it by blaming someone else.

Secondly why would russia claim ground fire when they just said its not clear what brought the plane down?

Turkey can also invoke the UN charter.

Russia would likely be playing it down because they don't want a conflict with NATO. It has a mission in Syria and that was to back up Assad and kill any rebels fighting him. Now Russia has seen an opportunity to come in from the cold with the west and ease sanctions, so it's changed its plan and started only targeting recognized IS positions.

Russia has conceded a little here, and the west has given Putin a little breathing room to suggest things can improve.

That's enough of a reason for Russia to be wanting to find a way out of this standoff. By saying it was potentially a rebel group from the ground Russia gave Turkey the opportunity to formulate a way out, but instead of doing that they backed up their statement that they shot it down.

Turkey is the one playing extremely dangerous games here, for once it's not Russia we should be suspicious of.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: angryhulk

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: angryhulk

Yet they still violated Turkish airspace did they not?

And were asked to leave, I believe the tracking data proves they did.

And it also shows the violation.

A violation not worth causing a world war over.

I have to agree with you on that one. Even now Turkey is not allowing Russia to downplay the situation.

a reply to: crazyewok

What does that have to do with Russia violating Turkish airspace? Using that logic the same argument can be made against Russia reference Ukraine.


Maybe stick to the topic instead of trying to derail it.

originally posted by: Rocker2013

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: asen_y2k

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: asen_y2k

That it violated Turkish airspace?

Yes it violated Turkish airspace and was shot while it was inside Syria.

Then the shootdown was valid. Turkey made it very clear the last time Russia violated its airspace. If Russia is using top of the line technology they should know where they are at.

I disagree entirely, and as a critic of Putin.
While it can be said that Russia had plenty of warnings about not flying into Turkish airspace, no rational nation actually fires on a plane like this unless there is clear evidence of nefarious activity.

I'm sorry but Turkey is absolutely in the wrong here. They knew its heading, they knew it was now out of their airspace, and they then fired on it knowing full well that a NATO nation firing on Russia had the potential to trigger a larger conflict.

No sane and rational government would make such a ridiculous decision knowing the plane was not a threat to them, no matter how many times they gave a "final warning". The consequences of this were massively dangerous (and still are) and it means that Turkey should be removed from the NATO alliance without question.

Exactly. The words "no sane or or rational government" express my feelings in these circumstances.

Well said,

Regards,

Bally.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: angryhulk

Violating someone's airspace is not political correctness. If you think that's the same as talking about why Yoga is offensive then that is your mistake.

Do not violate airspace. When you do, do not ignore the fighters warning you and keep doing it. If you do, expect to be shot down.

Exactly. There is no nation on earth that would not do the same thing, Know how many aircraft were forced to land because they violated secure airspace over Eielson AFB back in the day ? Weekly. Know what saved them from being shot down ? They landed when warned .