Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Who cares???

Give the kids their bloody toys, and who gives a damn what religion/cause is behind it. Its toys for underprivileged kids that matters here.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Annee

They can collect toys all year long.

They just can't do it in the name of a specific religion.

If its about the kids - - - the religious need to back off. But, they don't. Their God is more important then the kids.

Why not? Their religion is what they associate with and they are the ones doing the drive. As I said, you can then apply this logic to say Blacks can not have African American in the name of their toy drive, or Vets for toys and so on.....

The whole issue, no matter what anybody in this thread is trying to say otherwise, is the use of official email to promote a specific religion. The toy drive is not the issue. The use of email with blatant pushing of Christianity is the problem.

originally posted by: Shamrock6

The whole issue, no matter what anybody in this thread is trying to say otherwise, is the use of official email to promote a specific religion. The toy drive is not the issue. The use of email with blatant pushing of Christianity is the problem.

So whats the answer? Not give the kids their toys because some group is behind it?

Double post.

a reply to: Xtrozero

The computers, servers, mice and keyboards were all bought with taxpayer money. The government cannot take a position on religion, the government has to be religious-neutral.

Since the emails were sent from and to government owned property, it was wrong to use them to promote a Christian charity.

If someone wanted to email every USAF member from a private gmail or Yahoo! account on their own computer about a Christian-themed charity, that would have probably been OK.

a reply to: Kryties

It's an ethics violation. There are rules about what you can and can't use government email systems for.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Xtrozero

Christmas = Christian.

If the called it "Winter Holiday Toy Drive" I think everything would have been fine.

Perfect.

And BTW, there are Christians who are supporters of Separation of Church and State.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Kryties

It's an ethics violation. There are rules about what you can and can't use government email systems for.

Yeah fair enough, never denied that. Only that this seems to be being used by some people to push other agendas that don't result in underprivileged kids getting some toys for Christmas. Some are even trying to suggest that non-Christians won't get any toys at all because they are not Christian. The whole bloody thing is a bit ridiculous.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom

Christmas = Christian.

If the called it "Winter Holiday Toy Drive" I think everything would have been fine.

But what if it is Christians doing the drive...lol really? I get your point but I disagree...Satanist can have a toy drive and call it Satanist Toys for Kids, I have the choice to participate or not, in this case maybe not, but for an African American toy drive I would even though I'm white...

Where the complaint went was the SQ Commander promoting this to his SQ, and this can be seen as a form of coercing from a superior

a reply to: Annee

Thank you!

I don't care how someone wants to celebrate -- and I don't care who worships what. I think that keeping the government neutral protects everyone's religious freedoms.

There might be a Christian majority right now, and they may have the political clout right now -- but that may someday change. Christians one day might find they are the minority.

Its really in their best interest too! Now, and even in the future.

In my opinion here is the difference regarding emails sent out by the military to servicemen:

"OCC is looking for volunteers for their Christmas Toy Drive." -----acceptable.

"Join us in spreading the news about God's incredible free Gift of Salvation through his Son by volunteering for this toy drive."---- Not acceptable.

"The Dover Islamic Center is looking for volunteers for their holiday toy drive." ---acceptable.

"Join us in spreading the word to children that there is no god but God and Muhammad is the prophet of Allah."-- Not acceptable.

a reply to: Kryties

And I feel bad for the kids -- I do, it's kind of stupid that someone got offended enough to make a big deal about it and get it cancelled. But....rules are rules...And rules are especially important for the military, once you start bending one here or one there...

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Xtrozero

I misread your comment and confused myself. I now have a fresh cup of coffee and can see what you were getting at, as opposed to how I read it.

My bad.

lol all good..

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Kryties

And I feel bad for the kids -- I do, it's kind of stupid that someone got offended enough to make a big deal about it and get it cancelled. But....rules are rules...And rules are especially important for the military, once you start bending one here or one there...

And as a result a lot of poor and underprivileged children will not get something on Christmas to make their lives just that little brighter. I think that is an absolute disgrace.

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: Annee

Maybe some kid that isn't Christian deserves a toy.

Where does it say that some of these toys AREN'T going to kids who aren't Christian? From what I've read it says nothing of the sort.

Exactly, they don't ask if you are christian or not at any of the local Christians charities.

Just a fun thought I had...

This is one reason why politicians are often caught using personal email address with Gmail and other services. Anyone remember Sarah Palin and her use of personal emails? It skirts all the ethics laws when you use a private, non-government owned email system. AKA, you can send/forward whatever you want.

I mean, would we the public be OK if racist joke emails were passed around inside the government? Would a Republican be OK with someone at the Social Security office emailing everyone Bernie Sanders memes?

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Annee

Thank you!

I don't care how someone wants to celebrate -- and I don't care who worships what. I think that keeping the government neutral protects everyone's religious freedoms.

There might be a Christian majority right now, and they may have the political clout right now -- but that may someday change. Christians one day might find they are the minority.

Its really in their best interest too! Now, and even in the future.

Exactly!

Separation of Church and State is for neutrality - - - it is not an attack on Christians.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: EternalSolace
The hate is strong in this thread. Christmas... the term strikes fear and hate into some people.

Dramatic much?

That's ironic. I was thinking the same thing about the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

Because I am an advocate of Separation of Church and State - - - I have followed the "stories" in the military.

Religious abuse is what created the need for a Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

The Air Force continues to violate.

Get outta town, lol, it's all about hate the Christians,, even other atheist can see the stupidity.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Kryties

And I feel bad for the kids -- I do, it's kind of stupid that someone got offended enough to make a big deal about it and get it cancelled

It didn't get cancelled.

No one was advocating that the toy drive be cancelled.

It's being run by a religious charity that has nothing to do with the Air Force base and is still going on.

www.samaritanspurse.org...

The issue was the proselytization in the solicitation to participate sent from the office of a superior officer to subordinates.

originally posted by: Annee

And BTW, there are Christians who are supporters of Separation of Church and State.

I'm not sure what that really means...Our Forefathers wanted to prevent a State endorsed religion as England had with it's Church of England, so was their main objective to keep religion out of politics or politics out of religion? I do not think their main objective was to minimize all religious influences.