Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

a reply to: C-JEAN

There is, but you got to click on the little green man on the bottom left under the avatar and it's called alert, I agree him calling annee that was complete bull#, Annee You shouldn't be treated like that,don't take those ignormaous comments to heart.

originally posted by: stolencar18

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: stolencar18

I have never been confronted by a person of any other religion besides some form of christianity. But if i were,i would certainly not be open to listening to any of it.

I've never seen a polar bear. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

Huh? Did that really go over your head? I wasn't saying that people from other religions don't exist. You guys are so weak in your arguments. I'm sure you thought that was a zinger though. You probably slapped your knee.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Raise your hand if you realise that it's not the giving of toys that atheists are opposed too.

It's using the giving of toys to children to spread the good word about (insert any religion) that is the problem.

BS.

Can you get any more ridiculous?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Raise your hand if you realise that it's not the giving of toys that atheists are opposed too. It's using the giving of toys to children to spread the good word about (insert any religion) that is the problem.

That's not even the problem.

Samaritan's Purse has every right to distribute toys in order to convert children to their version of Christianity (repeat; THEIR version of Christianity.)

The issue here is the government endorsing that activity and military superiors soliciting subordinates to participate.

This is not necessarily an issue of "atheists" versus "Christians." I know a lot of Christians who have a very low opinion of Franklin Graham and who also resent being browbeaten by fundamentalists.

originally posted by: buster2010

This is a Christian charity and that's the problem. As it said in the article the military isn't allowed to endorse any faith. There are charities like Toys for Tots that collects toy for kids that isn't faith based that the military is allowed to endorse. If I'm not mistaken Toys for Tots is actually a Marine based charity I think it would be a good idea for each branch of the military to do something like that.

Kind of right...

Military personal can engage in events like this but can not use the Air Force name as a sponsor. They can call it Christmas toy drive, but they can not call it the Air Force Christmas toy drive. With that said, the military does have Chaplin's of every faith and every base does have multiple places of worship.

originally posted by: Annee

I don't do circular.

WOW. Seriously? You are deliberately not answering the question, and instead attempting to make yourself into the victim here. Unbelievable.

Once more for the dummies: Why are you trying to say that this particular toy drive/collection will result in non-Christian kids NOT being given toys because they are not Christian? The article and OP say nothing of the sort - therefore you are attempting to push an agenda that has nothing to do with kids getting toys. In fact, it would seem, that you would rather no-one got toys as long as none of that "Christian stuff" was alluded to or pushed onto anyone.

Now, stop acting like you have answered the question when, in fact, anyone with two eyes in their head can see you are doing everything you can to AVOID answering the question.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Raise your hand if you realise that it's not the giving of toys that atheists are opposed too. It's using the giving of toys to children to spread the good word about (insert any religion) that is the problem. Endorsing the the drive with "christmas", is the same as endorsing it with christianity. If it was endorsed by a satanic church, or a muslim org, then the christians would want it banned. That is why there needs to be an enforced separation of church and state. Because religios don't play by the rules.

So why not? If a group of Hell's Angels had a toy drive why should they not call it Hell's Angels toy drive? If a group of Gays did one too why not call it LBGT toy drive, and if a group of Christians did a toy drive around an important holiday for them why not call it Christmas toy drive?

originally posted by: Xtrozero
. . the military does have Chaplin's of every faith and every base does have multiple places of worship.

Yes, they do. Even an outdoor garden for Pagans. But, its been a fight.

Sorry, but I love this one:

Several weeks ago, Christian leaders, including myself, denounced televangelist Pat Robertson for claiming the Haitian earthquake was the result of God’s judgment against the country. Jesus clearly taught in Luke 13 that we are not to make such pronouncements. There are any number of theological possibilities for the “Why do bad things happen?” question, and only God knows which answer applies to which situation.

However, the decision by Air Force Academy officials in Colorado Springs to construct an outdoor space for the worship of pagan deities is an open invitation for God to send His harshest judgments against our nation. www.faithstreet.com...

a reply to: Annee

Whats that got to do with you saying non-Christian kids won't get any toys?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Raise your hand if you realise that it's not the giving of toys that atheists are opposed too. It's using the giving of toys to children to spread the good word about (insert any religion) that is the problem. Endorsing the the drive with "christmas", is the same as endorsing it with christianity. If it was endorsed by a satanic church, or a muslim org, then the christians would want it banned. That is why there needs to be an enforced separation of church and state. Because religios don't play by the rules.

So why not? If a group of Hell's Angels had a toy drive why should they not call it Hell's Angels toy drive? If a group of Gays did one too why not call it LBGT toy drive, and if a group of Christians did a toy drive around an important holiday for them why not call it Christmas toy drive?

Because none of the groups you mentioned are federal entities. Hells Angels can call their toy drive whatever they damn well please.

"United States Air Force Christian toy drive" is an entirely separate issue, no matter how much you try to blur the two into similarity.

originally posted by: Annee

Yes, they do. Even an outdoor garden for Pagans. But, its been a fight.
Sorry, but I love this one:

What people need to do is separate religion (good) from political religion (bad). A group of people collecting toys as part of their faith in helping man kind is religious, but not political like the Roman Catholic church is. Political religion has very little to do with religion....

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Annee

Yes, they do. Even an outdoor garden for Pagans. But, its been a fight.
Sorry, but I love this one:

What people need to do is separate religion (good) from political religion (bad). A group of people collecting toys as part of their faith in helping man kind is religious, but not political like the Roman Catholic church is. Political religion has very little to do with religion....

They can collect toys all year long.

They just can't do it in the name of a specific religion.

If its about the kids - - - the religious need to back off. But, they don't. Their God is more important then the kids.

I'm pretty sure there would be outrage if someone would have used the official USAF email to spread a charity drive for a Muslim organization.

The point is, it's a government email system -- it's not supposed to be used the way in which it was. It doesn't matter if the cause is good/just, the rules are the rules.

I hate how people bend and look the other way on rules when it suits their belief system or personal prejudices. As I said, if this had been a Muslim organization there would be uproar in the opposite direction. They hypocrisy is palpable.

This is why gov. sponsored email systems are supposed to stay political and religion-free, as they are funded by the taxpayer.

originally posted by: Annee

They can collect toys all year long.

They just can't do it in the name of a specific religion.

If its about the kids - - - the religious need to back off. But, they don't. Their God is more important then the kids.

Thanks for confirming that you could care less about whether poor and underprivileged kids get toys as long as it's not done in the name of Christianity or religion.

This is about poor kids getting toys, not your own personal Atheist agenda.

For utter shame. How very indescribably selfish of you.



I'm still trying to figure out how that translates to, in your words, these particular toys not going to non-Christian kids.

originally posted by: Shamrock6

"United States Air Force Christian toy drive" is an entirely separate issue, no matter how much you try to blur the two into similarity.

I do not think they called it that and I already stated they can not call it that, so what is your point? They can have a toy drive and call it The Christmas Toy Drive, but the Sq commander can not use official email to promote it, so the article is miss leading in suggesting the MRFF is trying to stop the toy drive because it is called the Christmas toy drive.

a reply to: Annee

Sad.... just sad... how about we just make the word Christmas illegal, punishable by death and effing be done with it....
Hey, just think! Then we can be like those people that behead you for saying something bad about Mohammy...OOORRR, we could allow tradition to exist for those that want to participate.

"Separation of church and state" is an expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Don't think handing out toys for Christmas qualifies the definition. they are not qualifying to office of any kind.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Christmas = Christian.

If the called it "Winter Holiday Toy Drive" I think everything would have been fine.

It's just semantics, I know -- but government resources can't show preference for one religion or another.

For example: If you work for the government, you can't send emails to co-workers about a Jeb Bush rally. The government at all levels has ethics rules that govern the use of their email systems.

Remember, the military is funded by taxpayers -- and not all of them are Christian.

originally posted by: Annee

They can collect toys all year long.

They just can't do it in the name of a specific religion.

If its about the kids - - - the religious need to back off. But, they don't. Their God is more important then the kids.

Why not? Their religion is what they associate with and they are the ones doing the drive. As I said, you can then apply this logic to say Blacks can not have African American in the name of their toy drive, or Vets for toys and so on.....

a reply to: Xtrozero

I misread your comment and confused myself. I now have a fresh cup of coffee and can see what you were getting at, as opposed to how I read it.

My bad.

a reply to: danimaltex

You can use Christmas all you want. You can drive around town with Christmas lights on your car, blaring Christian hymns and try to pass out Bibles to everyone you meet. If you have a private business you an yell "Merry Christmas" to each customer.

You might not be greeted with open arms by everyone, but none of that would be illegal..(well, maybe the music if its too loud).

This really isn't that big of a deal and could have been avoided entirely if the person sending the email out would have been cognizant of the ethics rules regarding the use of government email.