Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

a reply to: DelMarvel

This would be like UC Berkeley deciding that they would not allow Toys for Tots on their campus because they believe the Marines to be evil warmongers, so there are less toys for children in the area as a result.

Basically, because the campus of UC Berkeley decides to object to a charity for political reasons, the overall mission which is a very good one suffers and kids end up as the ultimate victims of the political brinksmanship.

Because, as has been mentioned, it is not as though OCC offers up a box o' proselytizing just a box of needed items with a toy for a needy child. But hey! I guess it's better they not get things like a toothbrush and toothpaste and that little doll so that we make sure no one could possibly think the Army might have worked even obliquely with a religious charity in any way.

I think religious persons are grasping at straw by sensationalizing the fact that this person do not want to associate religion with the gift to the kids the truth is Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. People think it’s a holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ despite so much evidence to the contrary. This is just another example of the transmission of knowledge being impeded in society.

Christmas as a placebo to spread happiness is fine. I have nothing against that. But let’s not mistake the reason why we’re doing it. It has nothing to do with Jesus. In fact, it started for pretty ignoble reasons. Then again, how much has changed? It’s still a pretty hedonistic holiday.

originally posted by: Annee
Yep, you go right ahead and limit what kids get what from whom and when.

I'm sorry I do not go out and collect toys year round to cover all the holidays to keep it neutral. I think it is total BS that candy is not given everyday of the year instead of just Halloween... Those crazy pagans and their holidays...should be banned from all military base housing...

JKing

originally posted by: Kryties

originally posted by: Shamrock6

The whole issue, no matter what anybody in this thread is trying to say otherwise, is the use of official email to promote a specific religion. The toy drive is not the issue. The use of email with blatant pushing of Christianity is the problem.

So whats the answer? Not give the kids their toys because some group is behind it?

How does this take toys away from kids. Don't get me wrong, I know "but think of the children!" is a super-fun drum to bang, but I'm not sure how getting the command to stop being a focal point for coordinating the drive is taking away from the kids? Everybody who got the email can still participate. They can stuff shoeboxes full of whatever they want to. They can sing hymns the whole time they do it.

They can't wear their uniforms while they do it, nor can they use official email to solicit more volunteers.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Annee
Yep, you go right ahead and limit what kids get what from whom and when.

I'm sorry I do not go out and collect toys year round to cover all the holidays and keep it neutral. I think it is total BS that candy is not given everyday of the year instead of just Halloween... Those crazy pagans and their holidays...should be banned from all military base housing...

JKing

Maybe its time for a change.

My mom did not believe in waiting for special days to buy us toys or special treats.

originally posted by: Annee

Yep, you go right ahead and limit what kids get what from whom and when.

Who's limiting what? No-one said anything about non-Christian kids not getting any toys because they aren't Christian, not even the OP or article itself. - yet you seem to be pushing this agenda still. Why is that?

And why is it that Ive had to keep asking that same question of you over and over again in this thread and yet you completely ignore it hmm? Are you trying to convince people of something that simply isn't true?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DelMarvel

So? It was kept off the base. So in effect, it was shut down.

So, where is your evidence it was "kept off the base?" Whatever that means.

ALL that has happened here is that the squadron commander has formally stated that the original email solicitation was inappropriate.

Anyone on the base who wants to participate is still free to do so.

a reply to: DelMarvel

Are those the words of the Airforce commander? Or are they the words of OCC?

I don't see where it was said it was a great opportunity. That leads me to believe it was just a forwarded email in which the comment was made it was a great opportunity.

So no, it's still not a clear endorsement of religion. Only an endorsement of the opportunity to volunteer.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Mate there are people in this thread who are actively suggesting that the non-Christian kids will not be given their toys because they are not Christian. This is total nonsense and I keep asking why is it that they are spreading such lies?

In the end, I could care less if its the Christians, the Muslims, the Satanists, the Flying Spagetti Monster or the bloody Jedi who give the kids toys. This is about adults turning a kids toy drive into a political #fest - and that is disgraceful.

originally posted by: Annee

Maybe its time for a change.

My mom did not believe in waiting for special days to buy us toys or special treats.

But I do enjoy Halloween... I do not like change.

I love opening gifts on Christmas morning around our Pagan Christmas tree, I love watching kids hunt for their Pagan Easter eggs, I love seeing kids dress up for Candy on Halloween, I love eating Ramadan meals for 30 days.. etc... I'm not religious and I have zero issues with all of it

originally posted by: ketsuko


Because, as has been mentioned, it is not as though OCC offers up a box o' proselytizing just a box of needed items with a toy for a needy child.

Off topic---but you're not correct.

What happens after my shoebox gift is delivered?

Our local ministry partners distribute your shoeboxes to children in their communities. In many places, a discipleship program called The Greatest Journey is offered to children after they receive their shoebox gifts. Through the program, our local ministry partners are able to establish long-term, caring relationships with children and families by sharing the love of Jesus Christ.

www.samaritanspurse.org...

originally posted by: ketsuko
But hey! I guess it's better they not get things like a toothbrush and toothpaste and that little doll so that we make sure no one could possibly think the Army might have worked even obliquely with a religious charity in any way.

That's not the issue here. The issue is that airmen were being solicited by the office of their squadron commander to participate in being "missionaries."

a reply to: Xtrozero

Same could be said about Habit for Humanity , sporting events, food drives and anything the command promotes looking for volunteers, volunter programs like spec ops, rescue swimmer (not spec ops now since most are own rate) , collateral duties and all kind of other crap service members do outside there normal duties. Does it matter what groups host these opportunities? When active, i got emails near daily for different volunteer opportunities, from toys for tots, habitat for humanity, to driving admirals, generals,senators who visited the base/ command. there are so damn many volunteer opportunities i assure you atheist (or whatever your beliefs) you have plenty opportunity.

I didn't grow up in a religious household and as an adult I'm still not religious. I turned out pretty damn OK. My morals and ethics are on the straight and narrow. I mind my p's and q's, I treat others how I would like to be treated, etc etc.... My parents did a great job and I love them for it. I know the religious history behind Christmas but for me, like many others, its about family. I love and enjoy my family and Christmas means I'll also get to see my extended family. I enjoy decorating for Christmas, just as I do Halloween. I like getting presents for my friends and family because well, I love them. I also enjoy giving to those in need when I can. Which shouldn't be limited to only Christmas time. So what I'm dragging out is, It shouldn't be assumed that everyone who likes Christmas is a Christian, cause we aren't. When I think of Christmas I don't think of religion. For me its more important than that, its about special moments with my family. They are my faith, solace, guidance, joy and hope.

Atheists and Christians need to start minding their own business. Tend your own families/lives figure out how to be happy. Stop trying to tell everyone else how they should feel, act and live.

a reply to: Kryties

It's adults recognizing that somebody violated DoD policy and wanting corrective action taken. Nobody is taking anything away from anybody other than the person who sent the email has been told to stop sending emails.

Anything beyond that, I completely agree that it's nothing more than adults whipping each other into a frenzy. And pointing to kids in an effort to bolster their argument.

Had the unit command handled this internally without any outside party ever getting involved, this wouldn't even be news. Period.

originally posted by: swimmer15
a reply to: Xtrozero

Same could be said about Habit for Humanity , sporting events, food drives and anything the command promotes looking for volunteers, volunter programs like spec ops, rescue swimmer (not spec ops now since most are own rate) , collateral duties and all kind of other crap service members do outside there normal duties. Does it matter what groups host these opportunities? When active, i got emails near daily for different volunteer opportunities, from toys for tots, habitat for humanity, to driving admirals, generals,senators who visited the base/ command. there are so damn many volunteer opportunities i assure you atheist (or whatever your beliefs) you have plenty opportunity.

There's no problem with sending emails announcing volunteer opportunities. The Air Force has specified that and no one has objected. The problem was with religious proselytization.

If fourteen people felt it necessary to go to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation rather than directly to the squadron commander because they feared retaliation it's pretty certain there was more going on here than just this one email.

www.doverpost.com...

Many scholars have tried to pinpoint the date of Jesus’s birth through cross-referencing dates mentioned in the bible (which makes many assumptions, the worst being that the bible is consistent, which it most definitely is not). Many have even used astrology and the dates of notable events, which are somewhat less erroneous. Regardless, one thing that scholars can agree upon is that Jesus was not born on the 25th of December. He wasn’t even born in winter, nor 1 BC/1 CE.
So where does Christmas come from? Some of you might have watched The Big Bang Theory where Sheldon points out that Christmas was actually the pagan festival of Saturnalia. Well, the Roman pagans introduced Saturnalia as a week long period of lawlessness where nobody could be punished. Things got pretty crazy; it was pretty much a full blown hedonistic celebration, complete with ritual murder, torture and rape. In the 4th century, Christianity imported this holiday in the hopes of converting pagans. They succeeded in converting a large number of pagans by promising that they could continue to celebrate Saturnalia as Christmas.
Unfortunately, Saturnalia had nothing to do with Jesus so Christian leaders proclaimed it to be a celebration of the birth of Christ. Yes, they made it up to spread their religion.

This isn't about the word "Christmas" being used..
It's not about toys being collected for little children..
It's not even about a religious organization being the ones running the show!!

It's about an employee of the US Military using gov't computers and email system to send out a recruitment message for volunteers that does include a very strong christian message within it!
The actual message that was sent out can be found at the end of this:

www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...

no one is trying to take the little kiddies christmas away from them, or attacking christmas, but this email is sending a christmas themed message through gov't channels.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

geez, another thread using a title, deliberately composed of misleading information, for the grunting satisfaction of mental midgets

There is really only one question here: do you support the US Constitution or not?

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

There are difficult questions to answer in the world; this is not one of them.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Bigburgh
" The Patron saint/just patron of atheism is Charles Darwin "

I became atheist through religion. The more I researched religion, the more I realized it was man making a myth.

I never heard of Charles Darwin - - until I read some postings on ATS.
It gets really annoying that some think I had to have another person tell me what I think.

I get the whole in your face bit...

Slightly off topic.
I have person in my life that has the need to give unwanted opinions and advice.
She's very religious. She has a daughter that is into being a Medium.. she had the audacity to say this to me.

" why follow a fake spirituality. It's unproven. I know it's bad and unfounded because the Bible says so."

I clammed up inside saying in my head what's the difference between the two spiritual beliefs.

So I get it.... but to the folks trying to ruin it for the "Kids"... not directed at you at all

I Don't Care What The Source Is Used To Put A Smile For A Less Fortunate Child. For Whatever Sake. Don't Hurt The Kids!!!!
Give them happiness.. keep any and all opinions to yourself. I don't care if folks are ButtHurt over an Idea.
Don't put the kids in between the line of fire.