Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

originally posted by: dawnstar
This isn't about the word "Christmas" being used..
It's not about toys being collected for little children..
It's not even about a religious organization being the ones running the show!!

It's about an employee of the US Military using gov't computers and email system to send out a recruitment message for volunteers that does include a very strong christian message within it!
The actual message that was sent out can be found at the end of this:

www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...

no one is trying to take the little kiddies christmas away from them, or attacking christmas, but this email is sending a christmas themed message through gov't channels.

Don't bother. It's clear after several pages that certain members don't want to hear it. It's already been made into something it's not, and so it shall clearly remain.

originally posted by: dawnstar
no one is trying to take the little kiddies christmas away from them, or attacking christmas, but this email is sending a christmas themed message through gov't channels.

And it's not just a "Christmas themed message."

I strongly suspect that had the email said something like "in the Christmas spirit of giving" there would not have been objections.

The email was clearly endorsing a specific belief system that not even all Christians agree with.

uh-oh...the truth is out....time to leave this thread....after all, most visitors and some members only read the title and the first few posts to form their own opinion.....so the job is done....on to the next thread.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Military personal can engage in events like this but can not use the Air Force name as a sponsor.

That's what I said the military isn't allowed to endorse religion.

originally posted by: Bigburgh


I Don't Care What The Source Is Used To Put A Smile For A Less Fortunate Child. For Whatever Sake. Don't Hurt The Kids!!!!
Give them happiness.. keep any and all opinions to yourself. I don't care if folks are ButtHurt over an Idea.
Don't put the kids in between the line of fire.

This is off the topic, but....

As I showed earlier in the thread, the kids getting these toys from OCC will be subject to religious indoctrination from the Franklin Graham people which is "in the line of fire" in my book.

I don't agree with that approach but of course they have every right to do it.

a reply to: DelMarvel

I think I mistyped, it should have been christian themed message.
and ya, Shamrock, I am wasting my energy, pointing out the truth of the matter, but ya know, it's really getting kind of irratating..
the kids didn't lose out on anything, the toy drive was never planned to be held on the base if I am understanding things correctly. once the emails were sent out, well they couldn't be taken back, so anyone who got them could have gone if they wanted.
ya, the lady who sent the emails might get reprimanded, but she should since she crossed a line they should have known better than to cross.

Tim Minchin is my kind of atheist. There are atheists who like Christmas and know that kids like it, too.

I really like Christmas
It's sentimental, I know, but I just really like it
I am hardly religious
I'd rather break bread with Dawkins than Desmond Tutu, to be honest

And yes, I have all of the usual objections
To consumerism, the commercialisation of an ancient religion
To the westernisation of a dead Palestinian
Press-ganged into selling Playstations and beer
But I still really like it

I'm looking forward to Christmas
Though I'm not expecting a visit from Jesus

I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun
I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun

I don't go in for ancient wisdom
I don't believe just 'cos ideas are tenacious it means they're worthy
I get freaked out by churches
Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords but the lyrics are dodgy

And yes I have all of the usual objections
To the mis-education of children who, in tax-exempt institutions,
Are taught to externalise blame
And to feel ashamed and to judge things as plain right and wrong
But I quite like the songs

I'm not expecting big presents
The old combination of socks, jocks and chocolate's is just fine by me

Cos I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun
I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun

And you, my baby girl
My jetlagged infant daughter
You'll be handed round the room
Like a puppy at a primary school
And you won't understand
But you will learn someday
That wherever you are and whatever you face
These are the people who'll make you feel safe in this world
My sweet blue-eyed girl

And if my baby girl
When you're twenty-one or thirty-one
And Christmas comes around
And you find yourself nine thousand miles from home
You'll know what ever comes

Your brothers and sisters and me and your Mum
Will be waiting for you in the sun
Whenever you come
Your brothers and sisters, your aunts and your uncles
Your grandparents, cousins and me and your mum
We'll be waiting for you in the sun
Drinking white wine in the sun
Darling, when Christmas comes
We'll be waiting for you in the sun
Drinking white wine in the sun
Waiting for you in the sun
Waiting for you...
Waiting...

I really like Christmas
It's sentimental, I know...
I just really do...

So the secretary sent it out...

Was she civilian, or military... vast majority of commanders I have seen in 18 years had civilian secretaries.

If a civy it wasn't the USAF endorsing ... it was the secretary misusing the email system.

That said its funny watching atheists become every thing they claim to hate in Organized religion.

ETA: if airmen complained to an outside agency without going up the chain of command first... or using the IG office... they deserve every bit of punishment coming their way.

a reply to: DelMarvel

And *gasp* now everyone knows she thinks it was a worthy thing and wanted to let them know they could participate or not, and now everyone knows there is at least one angry atheist on base too.

It's not a matter of "liking" Christmas.

It's a matter of the US Constitution.

It's a matter of religious freedom and the concomitant freedom from religion.

Spin, spin, spin ... these facts remain.

a reply to: ketsuko

I really believe the whole thing was a misunderstanding.

I pointed out last page of how I'm quite confident it was a forwarded email and not a religious endorsement. One would think we all know how forwarding works by now. Click forward and the message appears below the space where you write what you want. But the dislike of all things religious are obfuscating that point for some.

The only thing that was endorsed was the volunteer opportunity.

a reply to: ketsuko

Funny that when Christians "stand up" for their beliefs they're heroes in your eyes ... but when any non-Christian does it, they're villains.

Curious, eh?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DelMarvel

And *gasp* now everyone knows she thinks it was a worthy thing and wanted to let them know they could participate or not, and now everyone knows there is at least one angry atheist on base too.

There were fourteen people who complained to the MRFF and there is no way to know if they were all "atheists."

There are plenty of Christians who object to being subject to fundamentalist evangelizing in the workplace.

a reply to: ketsuko

Correction #1: now everybody in that command knows that either a) she blindly forwards emails using her DoD email without reading the content and violates all kinds of policies, or she DOES read them, noted the obvious push on Christianity, and violates policies to send it out from her DoD email.

Correction #2: now everybody knows there at least 14 people in that command who don't care to have religious emails sent to their DoD email from another DoD email. MRFF is full of people who identify as religious. They also identify as people who believe religion should be left to chaplains and that they shouldn't have to deal with other people's religious preferences.

You know, the kind of people who go to church on Sunday morning without posting bible verses on their Facebook page.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
It's not a matter of "liking" Christmas.

It's a matter of the US Constitution.

It's a matter of religious freedom and the concomitant freedom from religion.

Spin, spin, spin ... these facts remain.

"And yes I have all of the usual objections
To the mis-education of children who, in tax-exempt institutions,
Are taught to externalise blame
And to feel ashamed and to judge things as plain right and wrong
But I quite like the songs

Cos I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun
I'll be seeing my dad
My brother and sisters, my gran and my mum
They'll be drinking white wine in the sun"

***

Not a battle worth fighting. Not for me.
I'd rather be drinking white wine in the sun.

originally posted by: Annee
The Air Force has a long history of forcing Christianity.

They've been taken to court more then once.

I support Separation of Church and State 100%.

They wanna collect toys? Don't call it Christmas.

Who knew the Grinch was real and based on someone that posts at ATS?

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: Bigburgh


I Don't Care What The Source Is Used To Put A Smile For A Less Fortunate Child. For Whatever Sake. Don't Hurt The Kids!!!!
Give them happiness.. keep any and all opinions to yourself. I don't care if folks are ButtHurt over an Idea.
Don't put the kids in between the line of fire.

This is off the topic, but....

As I showed earlier in the thread, the kids getting these toys from OCC will be subject to religious indoctrination from the Franklin Graham people which is "in the line of fire" in my book.

I don't agree with that approach but of course they have every right to do it.

I absolutely respect that

a reply to: MotherMayEye

Excellent post.

It has nothing do with the topic ... but great post.

Heartfelt.

Establishing a religion, wherever, whenever, is still unconstitutional.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

a reply to: Metallicus

So, you're against the Constitution?

It's fine for the government to ignore religious freedom (and freedom from religion) if it feels good to you?

This is not about Christmas, Christians, kids, toys or anything else, except some holier than thou douche weasel, that wants her Kim Davis 15 minutes of fame. As was noted earlier in the thread, she has been complained about before for this kind of bovine feces, she should be fired, straight up, not the first time this has happened.

ETA: I am agnostic, but because of their stellar reputation of funds actually going to their programs, the Salvation receives a good deal of my charity dollars every year, as well as Toys for Tots, and almost any group that is supporting making sure every child has something for Christmas. My family has even gone as far as adopting another family, and providing them with food, gifts, etc, to ensure that their family enjoyed their christmas holiday, as my family does every year.