Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

a reply to: DelMarvel

I cant find the original email, anyone else see it? So its wrong because the secretary gave the impression that he/ she endorsed it because she said "its a great opportunity" ? I honestly care less, considering what a commander must deal with on a daily basis, its petty to me. I only replyed because the poster using it as an example for promotion.
I dont even like members volunteering for anything during duty, forces others to pick up the slack... Im for military not doing any volunteer anything, training and mission all i give a damn about when i put on the uniform.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Metallicus

So, you're against the Constitution?

It's fine for the government to ignore religious freedom (and freedom from religion) if it feels good to you?

Nope.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

I disagree that freedom OF religion equates to freedom FROM religion.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: MotherMayEye

Excellent post.

It has nothing do with the topic ... but great post.

Heartfelt.

Establishing a religion, wherever, whenever, is still unconstitutional.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

If you felt something in your heart, perhaps it's not plain right or wrong?

Or were you just humoring me?

There are some things that are plain wrong. This one isn't so plain. It's never plain when children's feelings are involved.

a reply to: Metallicus

How can it mean anything else? I'm not free to choose a thing if I'm not free to not choose that thing.

Pretty basic logic there.

But let's get back to you ... do you think it's okay for the government to enforce a religion?

If so, how can you say you're not opposed to the Constitution?

a reply to: MotherMayEye

I wasn't humoring you; I'm not wired that way.

I'm not talking about right and wrong; that's above my pay-grade.

I'm talking about government establishment of religion.

That's always wrong at Christmas, Hanukkah, Ramadan ... or whatever.

The government cannot establish religion; the government cannot restrict the free exercise of religion.

It is not one or the other but both at once.

Ergo, government stays out of religion completely, or as Jefferson phrased it the two remain utterly SEPARATE.

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Metallicus

So, you're against the Constitution?

It's fine for the government to ignore religious freedom (and freedom from religion) if it feels good to you?

Nope.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

I disagree that freedom OF religion equates to freedom FROM religion.

So if I choose to worship Satan at an alter in my back yard, and Christians burn down my house and kill my family, that would be ok with you?

a reply to: swimmer15
the letter that was sent out can be found here:

www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...
it starts around page 5...

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Metallicus

So, you're against the Constitution?

It's fine for the government to ignore religious freedom (and freedom from religion) if it feels good to you?

Nope.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

I disagree that freedom OF religion equates to freedom FROM religion.

The Supreme Court doesn't. Pretty much settles that, till somebody comes up with a brief to challenge it.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: MotherMayEye

I wasn't humoring you; I'm not wired that way.

I'm not talking about right and wrong; that's above my pay-grade.

I'm talking about government establishment of religion.

That's always wrong at Christmas, Hanukkah, Ramadan ... or whatever.

The government cannot establish religion; the government cannot restrict the free exercise of religion.

It is not one or the other but both at once.

Ergo, government stays out of religion completely, or as Jefferson phrased it the two remain utterly SEPARATE.

Glad you weren't humoring me!

Perhaps another solution to something you and I agree on -- the government must never establish a religion -- is to allow room for the celebration of all kinds of religious holidays without showing preference for any? It's only when religion provides the moral compass for rights and laws, that I really draw the line.

I doubt any child in need asking for a toy donation at Christmas would be excluded based on their religion/non-religion.

Being overly PC is today's trend, that's why.

Meanwhile, Atheists have families and celebrate Christmas with them, lol...

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
Tim Minchin is my kind of atheist. There are atheists who like Christmas and know that kids like it, too.

I am an atheist who celebrates Christmas (not religiously). I even like most Christmas music because it's happy.

But, if you can't understand that the Air Force is part of a secular government --- Separation of church and state --- that the Air Force has been sued several times for violating that by forcing Christianity --- then you have closed a door to a part of your brain.

a reply to: Annee

I would just like to point out that the academy is not really a good representation of the USAF as a whole... In any way shape or form.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: ketsuko

I really believe the whole thing was a misunderstanding.

How many times can the Air Force have the misunderstanding of pushing Christianity.

How many lawsuits does it take before they get the message?

a reply to: dawnstar


Thanks! So the only thing said was literally "great volunteer opportunity". looks like covert brainwashing to me, good grief! im trying work on not cussing so much, so i will sign off.... Thanks again dawn, website was loading with errors using my phone so i abandoned my search.

originally posted by: Kromlech
Being overly PC is today's trend, that's why.

Meanwhile, Atheists have families and celebrate Christmas with them, lol...

Meanwhile, the policy against using official email to send out religious messages has been around for quite some time.

Lulz.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Metallicus

So, you're against the Constitution?

It's fine for the government to ignore religious freedom (and freedom from religion) if it feels good to you?

Nope.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

I disagree that freedom OF religion equates to freedom FROM religion.

So if I choose to worship Satan at an alter in my back yard, and Christians burn down my house and kill my family, that would be ok with you?

What does that have to do with separation of church and state?

originally posted by: Annee
I am an atheist who celebrates Christmas (not religiously). I even like most Christmas music because it's happy.

But, if you can't understand that the Air Force is part of a secular government --- Separation of church and state --- that the Air Force has been sued several times for violating that by forcing Christianity --- then you have closed a door to a part of your brain.

I definitely do not support any requirement to attend church. (If that's the lawsuit you are referring to, I only did a quick search).

But, again, I don't believe a child in need would be denied toys from this program just because they aren't Christian. I only see benefits from it.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

You understand that this Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) group is frothing at the mouth anti-christian attack dog group right?

The "founder" despises Christianity specifically and that is his / their primary (if not only) target. They are a Christian Hate Group similar (and in bed with) the SPLC.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Michael L. (Mikey) Weinstein, Esq
Attorney, Author, Civil Rights Activist, Founder & President of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation

I founded the civil rights fighting organization the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) to do one thing: fight those monsters who would tear down the Constitutionally-mandated wall separating church and state in the technologically most lethal entity ever created by humankind, the U.S. military.

Today, we face incredibly well-funded gangs of fundamentalist Christian monsters who terrorize their fellow Americans by forcing their weaponized and twisted version of Christianity upon their helpless subordinates in our nation's armed forces.

If these fundamentalist Christian monsters of human degradation, marginalization, humiliation and tyranny cannot broker or barter your acceptance of their putrid theology, then they crave for your universal silence in the face of their rapacious reign of theocratic terror. Indeed, they ceaselessly lust, ache, and pine for you to do absolutely nothing to thwart their oppression. Comply, my friends, and you, too, become as monstrously savage as are they. I beg you, do not feed these hideous monsters with your stoic lethargy, callousness and neutrality. Do not lubricate the path of their racism, bigotry, and prejudice. Doing so directly threatens the national security of our beautiful nation.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Metallicus

How can it mean anything else? I'm not free to choose a thing if I'm not free to not choose that thing.

Pretty basic logic there.

But let's get back to you ... do you think it's okay for the government to enforce a religion?

If so, how can you say you're not opposed to the Constitution?

No one is FORCING you to participate in the toy drive. If you don't agree with giving children toys then don't participate. Very simple and painless.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Metallicus

So, you're against the Constitution?

It's fine for the government to ignore religious freedom (and freedom from religion) if it feels good to you?

Nope.

Religious freedom means freedom from religion as well.

I disagree that freedom OF religion equates to freedom FROM religion.

So if I choose to worship Satan at an alter in my back yard, and Christians burn down my house and kill my family, that would be ok with you?

I wanted to let you know that I am not ignoring you, but there is no point in answering this stupid question. Have a great day.