At least 220 dead, 450 hurt in stampede during Hajj outside Mecca

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: maddy21

The crane thing isn't a semi-regular occurrence, but Hajj stampedes do happen reasonably often, enough that when I heard the news this morning I thought, "Again!?"

I am sorry that this happened, but this is why buildings in the Western world tend to have capacity allowances with doors the open outward. It drastically reduces the risks of this kind of thing. And while I know the measures are not popular, it may also be one of the reasons why Israelis control the numbers of people who can access al-Aqsa at any one time.

The difficulty the Saudis are up against is that it is more or less mandated that a Muslim try to attend this set of holy days in Mecca specifically at least once in their life, if not as many times as they can, and the religion itself continues to grow so that there are more and more Muslims. Mecca can only reasonably accommodate so many human beings, but there are always going to be more and more who will seek to physically attend on these days, at this time, in this way.

The risks will only grow of this happening more often and with more people dying.

This is a really good point i think the problem seems to be that the Saudi's cannot manage the number of people coming to Mecca. There are 1.6Bn Muslims who all want to make the pilgrimage once in their lifetime and it lasts 6 days, there has to be more organisation and safety precautions put into place.

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

They died because something went wrong, to early to tell what, but I think its fair to say even at this early stage that there was inadequate safety precautions in place.

Have to disagree, that construction crane collapsing in Mecca last week was a tragic accident, due to inadequate safety precautions. These Hajj stampede killings happen almost annually in SA because the government does nothing year after year to prevent this. These people know the risks and don't hold the authorities accountable.

We are saying the same thing then.

You point out that this happens a lot and the Saudi government is not putting in precautions to prevent it and I have said that this happened due to inadequate safety precautions and not because of the Religion of Islam itself, so I think we are saying the same thing unless i am misunderstanding.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

So how many years of stampede are necessary before it becomes ridiculous ?

Reason ? No special reason. Just being there.

here it is...

People were going towards the direction of throwing the stones while others were coming from the opposite direction. Then it became chaotic and suddenly people started going down.

It suddenly became chaotic...as they say.

Bottom line...if people weren't so fanatical about their religion...there wouldnt be that many people there. Fervent fanaticism always breeds victims.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

They died because something went wrong, to early to tell what, but I think its fair to say even at this early stage that there was inadequate safety precautions in place.

Have to disagree, that construction crane collapsing in Mecca last week was a tragic accident, due to inadequate safety precautions. These Hajj stampede killings happen almost annually in SA because the government does nothing year after year to prevent this. These people know the risks and don't hold the authorities accountable.

We are saying the same thing then.

You point out that this happens a lot and the Saudi government is not putting in precautions to prevent it and I have said that this happened due to inadequate safety precautions and not because of the Religion of Islam itself, so I think we are saying the same thing unless i am misunderstanding.

You are correct. It's not the religion itself but the Saudis perpetually ignoring this situation.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

But you've got it wrong.

The ritual itself is not the problem. The problem is the timing of it and number who must carry it out at that time.

There are as many Catholics as there are Muslims or close to, and they all need to confess their sins and attend communion. And yet, we don't hear about them trampling each other to death in the carrying out of that ritual. It's because they can all do so in different places at different times.

The ritual itself is not problematic in the slightest.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

No.

It was due to a stupid decision to open a gate into the back of an already full stand, and not control the influx of people at all.

You may be thinking of Heysel, where a wall collapsed.

ATS has been invaded by ring-wing racist. Its a #ing joke how this site has changed over the last couple of years.

Disgusting comments and useless moderation of members, this site is full of people from all around the world, or at least was. Maybe the mods should do their jobs and stop some of the clearly racist comments

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Bottom line...if people weren't so fanatical about their religion...there wouldnt be that many people there. Fervent fanaticism always breeds victims.

Am i speaking a French to you?

Am I not being clear

The problem hear is that the Saudi government have failed repeatedly to put in adequate safety precautions at this event. The problem is a lack of safety NOT Islam.

To demonstrate my point, at Mecca there are about 2 Million pilgrims.

In July this year 41 million people gathered for the worship of the godavari River in India, zero fatalities if i recall and millions of people in a river at risk of drowning. Also this year the visit to the Pope in the Philippines attracted 5-6 million people, no deaths.

The problem then is not the number of "fanatical religious" people attending these events but the safety precautions put in place.

I would say as long as it is well known prior to going that these things have, can and will happen(ed) then I am not so sure anyone going there really cares that much.

I don't recall ever hearing a major public outcry to make it safer.

To most religions this would be a major mar on an event and likely end it, especially if it happened year after year. It is hard to imagine over 700 people being able to die all at once from just wanting to throw some rocks at some columns.

If you look at it from outside of a religious standpoint it is really dumbfounding that this is the reason they died.....they wanted to throw rocks and they died for it. Personally that would suck to be the last thing I did.

I can't imagine limiting access would go over very well either. That would probably get more of a public outrage reaction than 700 people dying ever could. Maybe that is the way they should bake it though....tell everyone it will now be limited just to get them to listen and as a community come up with an idea for safety that actually works?

a reply to: ketsuko

It's because they can all do so in different places at different times.

so who is forcing Muslims to do it at the same time at the same place ?

Ah yes..Religion...it says that place is holy...right ? You must throw stones to cast out the devil...and you must do it right there. Once you do...you have achieved your life goal. And that's not fanaticism ?

Sorry guys...but it is just ridiculous to me.

As long as you do it...I'll be tolerant about it....just don't ask me to feel sorry for you. Talk to your God. Whichever. He's the one that "called" you to the "sacred" place.

a reply to: neformore

I stand corrected.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

So what would you do?

Close Mecca at the time of the Hajj and tell all 1.6Bn Muslims they cannot come any more because of a few deaths.

No of course you wouldn't.

This is preventable if the Saudi government start putting in proper safety precautions. I heard one guy on the news saying they were using explosives in close proximity to where the pilgrims where gathered for example.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I would say location and setup are their major issues. The events you listed are very infrequent and the venues are MUCH larger and constant movement is not required.

The safest thing would be if Hajj changed to everyone gathers in one place and there is no movement to be done....movement is what causes a stampede, but again, I doubt this will ever change as it has been done for so long and no matter how many people die, more would be upset about a change in the way it is done versus deaths occurring from it.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

In July this year 41 million people gathered for the worship of the godavari River in India, zero fatalities if i recall and millions of people in a river at risk of drowning. Also this year the visit to the Pope in the Philippines attracted 5-6 million people, no deaths.

You made a point for me here...maybe if you look hard...you will find it.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

The safest thing would be if Hajj changed to everyone gathers in one place and there is no movement to be done.

You could not do that, the location is too important.

What safety precautions you would put into place, I am not to sure what you would do of the top of my head, but they have to do something that maintains the traditions but maintains a balance of safety.

originally posted by: n00bUK
ATS has been invaded by ring-wing racist. Its a #ing joke how this site has changed over the last couple of years.

Disgusting comments and useless moderation of members, this site is full of people from all around the world, or at least was. Maybe the mods should do their jobs and stop some of the clearly racist comments

And yet hear I am ... a right winger ... defending the Muslims in their right to carry out the ritual.

The problem was the crowd control, not their religious practice.

originally posted by: n00bUK
ATS has been invaded by ring-wing racist. Its a snip joke how this site has changed over the last couple of years.

Disgusting comments and useless moderation of members, this site is full of people from all around the world, or at least was. Maybe the mods should do their jobs and stop some of the clearly racist comments

Could not agree more.

I have found myself posting less and less on this site and this is basically why its became over crowded with very vocal racists and some people who seem to regard themselves as intellectual elites who post some quite nasty comments at times.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Vasa Croe

The safest thing would be if Hajj changed to everyone gathers in one place and there is no movement to be done.

You could not do that, the location is too important.

What safety precautions you would put into place, I am not to sure what you would do of the top of my head, but they have to do something that maintains the traditions but maintains a balance of safety.

I am not suggesting change the location, I am suggesting stopping them from having to move/walk from place to place. Maybe "ceremoniously" motioning as to the throwing of stones towards the columns without really throwing stones or something of the sort. Problem is they are trying to heard 2+million people through 3 stories of walkways to actually throw stones at 3 columns....

The reason a lot of these things don't occur at other large gatherings in these numbers is because other large gatherings are not having to be in constant motion....they are standing in one place once they arrive and walking away once they are done.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

sorry I misunderstood.

Yeah I think that is a valid point.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

So what would you do?

I wouldn't go there.

Even if I was religious...I could always find ample room at home to worship my God.

But I guess that's not satisfactory to a religious fanatic. It has to be Mecca...'cos it's holy. You just feel closer to God there. Fewer stairs to heaven I guess. Literally.

I'm disturbed at these "cultures" that advocate that dying is ok if done in the name or closeness to God.

You yourself have belittled these deaths in one of two posts...

no matter how many people die

Close Mecca at the time of the Hajj and tell all 1.6Bn Muslims they cannot come any more because of a few deaths.

No of course you wouldn't.

Throwing stones is important. Lives...meeh...not so much.