At least 220 dead, 450 hurt in stampede during Hajj outside Mecca

originally posted by: clay2 baraka

originally posted by: Gothmog
I hope someone doesnt take this the wrong way , but how many people were injured rushing to see the Pope in the US ?
Wouldnt that be comparable but on a smaller scale ? Ratios and proportions et al

Mods, delete post if needed

Don't even get me started about Wal-Mart on Black Friday..

Well , you got me there.

a reply to: neformore

Couple of big differences...

1. The Germans and Japanese capitulated, they surrendered, ending WWII. Relations were normalized in time and people moved on. Extremist Islam on the other hand has vowed death to the non-Muslims (the infidels)...forever.

2. I know many people of the WWII generation who never forgot/forgave the people of the German and Japanese cultures. My father was one of them. He served three tours in Europe in B-17's before returning to the states and training in B-29's to go to the Pacific (Japan). So yes, he held a grudge all his life. I think people hold a grudge against things which have affected their own personal lives in their lifetime. I hold no grudge against Germans and Japanese, but I certainly remember the people dancing in the streets, burning US flags, in celebration of 9-11 in numerous Islamic countries. You can't deny it happened because it did.

Political Correctness has tried to de-mystify this with statements like "well, it's not a country, or a people...and you can't demonize a religion". True, but like I said in my earlier posts; when a culture does not police it's own image (and places 'saving face' at the individual level above all else), I think it hard to find sympathy for a world view which stereotypes this same culture as not caring for human life.

edit...Granted, few (if any) of those involve in yesterdays tragedy were extremist Islam, but the fact remains; the larger body of the faith permits (allows) the minority to determine the world view of their culture.

Karma is a vengeful B*tch!

Rumors and my friends from Saudi suggest : 1250+ killed and 2000 injured. Also (which cannot be confirmed) indicate that since saudi war minister was visiting the site , 2 of 3 streets which were a way out , were closed.

If this is true there won't ever be an official confirmation.

In todays day and age crowd management is easier with the use of technology. Saudi's instead of going to expensive hotels and wasting their money should have invested in better organization, crowd management. All you need is a small wrist band tracker given to every pilgrim integrated into a digital system so that crowds can be monitored in real time with prediction algorithms several steps ahead of any event. From one of my friends who visited Hajj recently, he said there are no time tables, no directions offered the guards or the members involved in the service only know Arabic which 90% of most people who end up there don't. This is purely a case of mismanagement and criminal neglect. But unfortunately Saudi's will not blame themselves but will instead blame the civilians..

originally posted by: muSSang
Karma's a bi*ch, oops I mean Mecca's a bi*ch.

OMG i cannot believe the bigotry and inhumanity in this thread . i really cannot believe the hate some people have inside their hearts .

i pity you . i pity you and whatever you stand for . i pity your sick and F-ed up mentality . if you cannot sympathize with the dead then why not just shutting the hell up ? or maybe you had to spew your venom somehow ?

R.I.P humanity . we can no longer tolerate eachother . tolerance is dead .

============================

on topic :

- 700+ innocent people are dead , 130 Iranians among them .

- Iran announces 3 days of mourning

- apparently there was 3 ways to get out of rami-jamarat (the place which the stampede happened) and 2 of them were closed by police because of a saudi official visiting the site which caused this mess .

EDIT :i really cannot get over the comments i read earlier . some people are just not humans

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Karma is a vengeful B*tch!

oh lord .

nah . there is something deeply wrong here .

you're no different than ISIS .

originally posted by: haman10

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Karma is a vengeful B*tch!

oh lord .

nah . there is something deeply wrong here .

you're no different than ISIS .

See that's where your'e wrong.
I allow freedom of speech - just like I'm allowed to express my opinion.
I allow freedom of religion - if they want to be terrorist Allah fanatics - let them - just accept karma's payback

The most destructive and painful thing I do is type my honest opinion on an internet forum, they behead children

I am no fan of Muslims or Saudi Arabia because of the past crimes they have committed and suffering they have caused. Yes, not all Muslims are the same just like all Saudi's aren't the same but of late it has been Muslim terrorists butchering and murdering innocent people. If they can do it indiscriminately then so can Karma.

So, in your view, im like ISIS because I type a line on an internet forum...

originally posted by: Agit8dChop

originally posted by: haman10

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Karma is a vengeful B*tch!

oh lord .

nah . there is something deeply wrong here .

you're no different than ISIS .

See that's where your'e wrong.
I allow freedom of speech - just like I'm allowed to express my opinion.
I allow freedom of religion - if they want to be terrorist Allah fanatics - let them - just accept karma's payback

The most destructive and painful thing I do is type my honest opinion on an internet forum, they behead children

I am no fan of Muslims or Saudi Arabia because of the past crimes they have committed and suffering they have caused. Yes, not all Muslims are the same just like all Saudi's aren't the same but of late it has been Muslim terrorists butchering and murdering innocent people. If they can do it indiscriminately then so can Karma.

So, in your view, im like ISIS because I type a line on an internet forum...

Yes exactly . i'm sorry , ISIS is much better than you .

you're just assuming that those people behead children , because they are muslims . isn't that right ? you're assuming its karma paying back , only cause they are muslims . isn't that true ?

so you're a genocidal maniac and a mass-murderer . you know why i just said that ? cause you're a westerner . you guys started world wars and killed dozens of millions of innocent people . you have killed a million times more people than ISIS .

so you're much worse than them . they behead people , you vaporize them . whats the difference ?

zilch .

you're a genocidal maniac .

and F rationality and F logic . how does that sound ?

700 innocent people have died and you are cheering . says a lot about your mentality .

as i said , R.I.P humanity

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Karma is a vengeful B*tch!

If that where true after that comment you would have lost your job, found your other half cheating on you with the gardener then fell face first into a pile of dog crap for making such heartless and insensitive comments about the dead

Grow up,

717 is not just some abstract number it represents 717 individuals who sadly have had their lives cut short, 717 families waking up today knowing life will never be the same. Really passes me off how so many o n this site seem to view the value of a Muslims life to be less than that of others.

originally posted by: maddy21
In todays day and age crowd management is easier with the use of technology. Saudi's instead of going to expensive hotels and wasting their money should have invested in better organization, crowd management. All you need is a small wrist band tracker given to every pilgrim integrated into a digital system so that crowds can be monitored in real time with prediction algorithms several steps ahead of any event. From one of my friends who visited Hajj recently, he said there are no time tables, no directions offered the guards or the members involved in the service only know Arabic which 90% of most people who end up there don't. This is purely a case of mismanagement and criminal neglect. But unfortunately Saudi's will not blame themselves but will instead blame the civilians..

You do realize how much that would cost for that many people right? With that many people it couldn't be done, and even if it could, how would it stop an instant stampede?

What they need to do is quit the movement...that would solve the entire problem.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: maddy21
In todays day and age crowd management is easier with the use of technology. Saudi's instead of going to expensive hotels and wasting their money should have invested in better organization, crowd management. All you need is a small wrist band tracker given to every pilgrim integrated into a digital system so that crowds can be monitored in real time with prediction algorithms several steps ahead of any event. From one of my friends who visited Hajj recently, he said there are no time tables, no directions offered the guards or the members involved in the service only know Arabic which 90% of most people who end up there don't. This is purely a case of mismanagement and criminal neglect. But unfortunately Saudi's will not blame themselves but will instead blame the civilians..

You do realize how much that would cost for that many people right? With that many people it couldn't be done, and even if it could, how would it stop an instant stampede?

What they need to do is quit the movement...that would solve the entire problem.

english.alarabiya.net...

Not much really, considering the amount of pilgrims which comes for the Hajj. For Saudi's its no longer a religious issue, its money. They are earning billions.They have already bulldozed ancient Islamic sites like the house of the first wife of Mohammad to make way for more Infrastructure.

Constant live tracking of crowd movements may not be able to stop a stampede but can definitely reduce the chances of it happening, by allowing authorities to divert the crowds into less crowded areas.

originally posted by: maddy21

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: maddy21
In todays day and age crowd management is easier with the use of technology. Saudi's instead of going to expensive hotels and wasting their money should have invested in better organization, crowd management. All you need is a small wrist band tracker given to every pilgrim integrated into a digital system so that crowds can be monitored in real time with prediction algorithms several steps ahead of any event. From one of my friends who visited Hajj recently, he said there are no time tables, no directions offered the guards or the members involved in the service only know Arabic which 90% of most people who end up there don't. This is purely a case of mismanagement and criminal neglect. But unfortunately Saudi's will not blame themselves but will instead blame the civilians..

You do realize how much that would cost for that many people right? With that many people it couldn't be done, and even if it could, how would it stop an instant stampede?

What they need to do is quit the movement...that would solve the entire problem.

english.alarabiya.net...

Not much really, considering the amount of pilgrims which comes for the Hajj. For Saudi's its no longer a religious issue, its money. They are earning billions.They have already bulldozed ancient Islamic sites like the house of the first wife of Mohammad to make way for more Infrastructure.

Constant live tracking of crowd movements may not be able to stop a stampede but can definitely reduce the chances of it happening, by allowing authorities to divert the crowds into less crowded areas.

From your source article:



Please circle a "less crowded area" to hold 700+ people....LOL!

There are no less crowded areas to shuffle people....that is the issue. If there were then stampedes would not happen. They can't just transplant thousands of people in an instant to another area. Tracking how the crowd moves won't work BECAUSE the crowd is moving. The pattern they find will always be the exact same....the path/direction the pilgrims are told to walk to complete the Hajj by their religion....there are just more people now and all want/have to walk the same path.

Like I said earlier, if the movement stops the deaths stop, but it is doubtful the religious leaders will make a change to save the lives they could save....there would be too much of a backlash.

originally posted by: haman10

originally posted by: Agit8dChop

originally posted by: haman10

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Karma is a vengeful B*tch!

oh lord .

nah . there is something deeply wrong here .

you're no different than ISIS .

See that's where your'e wrong.
I allow freedom of speech - just like I'm allowed to express my opinion.
I allow freedom of religion - if they want to be terrorist Allah fanatics - let them - just accept karma's payback

The most destructive and painful thing I do is type my honest opinion on an internet forum, they behead children

I am no fan of Muslims or Saudi Arabia because of the past crimes they have committed and suffering they have caused. Yes, not all Muslims are the same just like all Saudi's aren't the same but of late it has been Muslim terrorists butchering and murdering innocent people. If they can do it indiscriminately then so can Karma.

So, in your view, im like ISIS because I type a line on an internet forum...

so you're much worse than them . they behead people , you vaporize them . whats the difference ?

If given a choice, I myself would rather be vaporized. It's quicker and there's no psychological terror in the anticipation that your about to be decapitated. I'll take the west's method over ISIS any day.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: maddy21

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: maddy21
In todays day and age crowd management is easier with the use of technology. Saudi's instead of going to expensive hotels and wasting their money should have invested in better organization, crowd management. All you need is a small wrist band tracker given to every pilgrim integrated into a digital system so that crowds can be monitored in real time with prediction algorithms several steps ahead of any event. From one of my friends who visited Hajj recently, he said there are no time tables, no directions offered the guards or the members involved in the service only know Arabic which 90% of most people who end up there don't. This is purely a case of mismanagement and criminal neglect. But unfortunately Saudi's will not blame themselves but will instead blame the civilians..

You do realize how much that would cost for that many people right? With that many people it couldn't be done, and even if it could, how would it stop an instant stampede?

What they need to do is quit the movement...that would solve the entire problem.

english.alarabiya.net...

Not much really, considering the amount of pilgrims which comes for the Hajj. For Saudi's its no longer a religious issue, its money. They are earning billions.They have already bulldozed ancient Islamic sites like the house of the first wife of Mohammad to make way for more Infrastructure.

Constant live tracking of crowd movements may not be able to stop a stampede but can definitely reduce the chances of it happening, by allowing authorities to divert the crowds into less crowded areas.

From your source article:

Please circle a "less crowded area" to hold 700+ people....LOL!

There are no less crowded areas to shuffle people....that is the issue. If there were then stampedes would not happen. They can't just transplant thousands of people in an instant to another area. Tracking how the crowd moves won't work BECAUSE the crowd is moving. The pattern they find will always be the exact same....the path/direction the pilgrims are told to walk to complete the Hajj by their religion....there are just more people now and all want/have to walk the same path.

Like I said earlier, if the movement stops the deaths stop, but it is doubtful the religious leaders will make a change to save the lives they could save....there would be too much of a backlash.

My source article was to point out the amount of money that they are making. No clue what you are talking about. Hajj is a huge place it usually has 2-3 million people visiting. Managing 700 people is very very small considering the amount. The point is to direct were the crowd moves and which crowd does not move. It has been done before in a lot of places especially in South Asia were Huge crowds are usually gathered during religious/ political events.

The current stampede in Mecca happened when two groups of crowds came head on blocking the route of the crowd heading to the religious site. If there was live monitoring of crowd movements, this could have been quiet easily avoided.

originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: haman10

originally posted by: Agit8dChop

originally posted by: haman10

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
Karma is a vengeful B*tch!

oh lord .

nah . there is something deeply wrong here .

you're no different than ISIS .

See that's where your'e wrong.
I allow freedom of speech - just like I'm allowed to express my opinion.
I allow freedom of religion - if they want to be terrorist Allah fanatics - let them - just accept karma's payback

The most destructive and painful thing I do is type my honest opinion on an internet forum, they behead children

I am no fan of Muslims or Saudi Arabia because of the past crimes they have committed and suffering they have caused. Yes, not all Muslims are the same just like all Saudi's aren't the same but of late it has been Muslim terrorists butchering and murdering innocent people. If they can do it indiscriminately then so can Karma.

So, in your view, im like ISIS because I type a line on an internet forum...

so you're much worse than them . they behead people , you vaporize them . whats the difference ?

If given a choice, I myself would rather be vaporized. It's quicker and there's no psychological terror in the anticipation that your about to be decapitated. I'll take the west's method over ISIS any day.

What about Napalm ? i hear they were used in plenty in Vietnam

a reply to: Agit8dChop

Why is it karma?

Are you suggesting that these 700+ people all have links to some event that means they deserve to be crushed to death.

What event would that be, and how do you know?

Using this logic, given the proxy wars started by the west for oil, and fighting the perceived threat of communism, you agree that 9/11 was karma do you?

Or maybe your comment was ill conceived, and it might be better placed to admit such?

originally posted by: neo96
Currently are the Japanese, and the Germans going around killing people in the name of their religion ?

Nope.

Its amazing how people quickly forget history in order to try and make their point.

World War 2 - not in the name of religion mind, but still....

16,000,000 troops and 45,000,000 allied civilians dead
The Holocaust in Europe
The Asian Holocaust
The SS
Unit 731

Need I go on? It makes 9/11 look miniscule.

And yet you're fine with those guys....yeah...its just the muslims that deserve the karma?

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: maddy21

Reading some of the comments from the article is depressing,people are so hateful its a sign of the times i suppose...

Some 2 million people a year do this pilgrimage every year,thats a lot of people its no wonder that tragedies happen when many people converge all at once...crazy stuff

Maybe if millions ofWesterners were pouring into the MiddleEast expecting a free new life under the guise of asylum, whilst 70% of them were young men....... Then perhaps the feelings of local MiddleEasterners would be similar.... oh wait, they tend to hate westerners already, so I can only imagine their feelings if millions of westerners were invading.

Please understand that I'm not defending or justifying ANYONE; people dying like this is a tragedy. I'm just pointing out the global situation and why average people are beginning to lack sympathy for the plight of west Asians/MiddleEasterns.

The powers at work have created a tinderbox just waiting to explode right now.